PT Surge Bulb Mount Failure ----WARNING!!!---

Originally posted by bucken:
FWIW, I have an early Surge (got it when they were first released) and have used it (more than once) while working on the car engine for over 45 minutes at a time. Yes, it does tend to get very warm, but my bulb has never moved. During most of the use, however, I have to admit that the Surge was either laying almost horizontal, or at a slight downward angle. I wonder if this problem might be isolated to one or more production batches (or perhaps some sort of design change)?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was also one who bought an early Surge, and I've performed runtime tests on it using NiMHs. So I've had it on for almost 3 hours continuously (on it's side). I've never had this happen. I did have the bulb bubble up the paint on the reflector, though.
 
Well guys, I know the problem seems bad to the ones that have had this happen to them, but when you think about it, it does not seem to be a really bad problem overall. I mean, just think about how many people here have a Surge and use it regularly and have not had a run in with this issue (me included). There are hundreds of people here that have them and only a hand full of people have been unfortunate enough to have this happen to them. Maybe it's just a manufacturer's defect that only affected certain stock. Has anyone here tried sending their Surges back to Princeton Tec and seeing if the problem persist in the replacement? I'm just curious because I would hate to think that all surges were just sitting there waiting for the day that they would unsolder their lamp assemblies and drop a bulb. If that was the case, I would be pretty sad about it because I've come to really like my Surge for most day to day task.
 
Aragorn,

Sorry, never noticed any of your anti-Surge comments. If the bulb issue is related to a set of production runs then bad on Princeton Tec for letting them pass without proper testing. It's still a great design (reference users that have had theirs on for 45 minutes+ with no problems). Mags are only good for mods or use as a blunt-trauma weapon. To support Mag Instruments in particular is, in my opinion, extremely un-flasholic given their lack of innovation and tendency to stifle others'.

Darkaway,

I was using standard Duracell . I'd use NiMH but my surge is primarily an car/emergency light so self discharging rechargeables are out of the question.

PercaDan,

Interesting, I'll have to check that out.

Jon

PS - Anyone know if PT is still producing these? I couldn't find it referenced on their site, perhaps I just missed it?
 
Jon -

I tried to reproduce this failure last night by running my Surges for about an hour each (one on new Duracells and one on freshly charged NiMHs). The lens on both lights seemed a bit warm after the hour, but I did the "bezel-rap" test pretty forcefully on both without inducing bulb de-soldering. Perhaps there was some sort of bad batch that is more prone to bulb de-soldering and I just got lucky. You should definitely send the failed unit back to PT - I hear they have good customer service.

John

PS Not that it is relevant to this issue, but my highly UNcalibrated "eye-test" indicated that the Duracell-loaded Surge started out brighter than the NiMH-loaded Surge, but at the 1 hour mark, the NiMH-Surge might have been slightly brighter. Is this consistent with everyone else's experience?

PPS You might want to also consider a PT Tec40 for car/emergency use. While not quite as bright as the Surge, it's very compact and can take lithium AAs for even better standby capabilities. Someone here did a runtime test for a Tec40 with lithiums, and found that they provided a good 3 hours of light.
 
i think this is a design flaw, and it will manifest itself when subject to the same conditions no matter which batch. the most probable reason this doesn't happen more often with the later models is because not everyone leaves the light on long enough for the bulb to desolder itself. perhaps someone should let PT know about this? seems like changing the kind of solder used would fix this simple problem easily.
 
nihraguk,

I'm not sure I agree about this being a design defect. I think it's a production defect possibly because there are plenty of Surge's out there that don't have this problem.

kubolaw,

I'm going to call PT later today AND I'm going to track down a tec-40 if it can be used with Lithiums. Slightly off topic, but doesn't the tec-40 use HPR-50 Halogen bulbs?

Jon
 
Aragorn, I though that would get your goat.
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I'm with you on Arc (my AAA LE is at the top of my list) but haven't owned a SF yet. Anyway, I still don't believe all Surge's are bad (again, too many reports of long run times with no problems).

I'm going to call their customer service now and see if I can get the full story.

Jon
 
FWIW - When I resoldered the bulb sockets back into place (twice) I was using some Mil-Spec solder I got back when I worked at a private military electronics contracter. This stuff IS "high temp" solder, and I was still able to produce the failure (even under water). I have checked all the connections, none seem to be loose. If I put dummy cells into the holder, I get a complete circuit with the switch on with virtually no resistance. Even while fiddling with everything trying to see if there was a bad connection. I can't seem to find one. I don't see how this could be a batch specific failure.
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If the bulb sockets are the same for all of the lights, I could only guess that under the same conditions, the failure will still occur, even though kubolaw says his didn't do it. As StoneDog said, it doesn't take much force for the bulb to fall out. I can't believe the paint on the reflector would get hot enough to bubble and not have the bulb failure we have had here.
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The only way to really know what the problem is would be if everyone who has one of these lights and reads this thread tries the "test".

I can't decide whether to send this back to PT so they can see the problem themselves firsthand, or just return it to where I bought it last weekend.
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I would like to tell myself this is a batch specific problem, but the engineer in me won't let me fool myself so easily.
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StoneDog, let us know what the cust. service dept. says. I have several other PT lights and I think that in general, they make great products that are very durable. At least this is a company that is willing to keep up with the times and bring us new products with the latest, greatest technology (unlike M*gl!ght).
 
LEDmodMan: It's probably too late to use higher temperature solder once it already is coated with a layer of the lower temperature solder. Probably the only way using different solder would have any effect is if you could somehow start from scratch with a new socket or something because you will never be able to clean off all of the old, lower temperature, solder. There will always be a layer of it on there that will cause problems.

This seems like a very easy thing to fix at the manufactures level if they only knew the problem existed. Either they could use higher temperature solder to begin with or else use brads to brad the socket onto the circuit board. Heck, they could even use a socket with legs that would bend behind the circuit board that would not allow the socket to fall forward when bumped. Princeton Tec does need to be notified of the flaw though and in a big way so that they take it seriously. It would probably help if as many people called them as possible so that they would take the matter seriously and pass the info on to their design engineers.
 
I'm on my 4th set of batteries in my Surge and haven't had this problem. But to be sure a few days ago I ran it for 15 minutes on fairly fresh batteries, every 5 minutes I gave it a couple good bangs,thwacks, and slaps which didn't seem to bother the bulb. Maybe I'll try again and try to smash it harder.
 
OK, I've talked to two different folks at PT about the Surge. They were both very helpful.

First I talked to Ryan Ditta - a customer service rep. He made it sound like they've tested current production Surge's taken from the production line and that they are working just fine. I only spoke with him briefly on the phone so I may have misunderstood him. He did, or course, ask me to send it in under warranty.

I asked a few questions in email about what type of testing they've done and got a follow up from their Assitant National Sales Manager (Roger Childs). I'm waiting for some clarification on his email before I can post what he said but it hinted at manufacturing issues and a change in the switch, the issue is definitely not related to design.

I'll post more when I he answers my follow-up questions.

Jon

PS - Both have been very, very nice. PT seems like a quality company that really stands by their products.
 
Well, maybe I'll send mine in under warranty then. I would rather just take it back to the store and get a new one right away, but I would expect that the ones they have there would probably have the same problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Plus, if I send it in under warranty, PT may be able to fix the problem for future versions by looking at what happened. I won't call them about this yet until StoneDog posts further information.
 
I'm just curious. Has anyone tried using J.B. Weld or something similar to keep the bulb socket from coming unsoldered? If I recall correctly, it is rated to be used at very high temperatures.

I read where a couple of people had used epoxy, but the epoxy that I looked at at Wal-Mart was not rated for use at these kinds of high temperatures. Is there some kind of special, highly heat resistant epoxy on the market that I'm not aware of or are you guys just using normal epoxy and hoping for the best?

BTW, has anyone heard anything new from Princeton Tec on this issue? I sure hope they have worked out a fix for this because my Surge is probably my favorite incandescent flashlight, well that is until this issue came up…
 
I have performed at least three runtime tests with my two Surges. The lights were horizontal on a desk or on a bed, and were run until they no longer produced light. In no case was there a problem of any kind, though I never thought of doing a vertical test.

Brightnorm
 
X-CalBR8,

I sent their Assistant National Sales Manager a follow-up email and haven't heard from him yet. It was only Friday afternoon EST when I emailed him and I imagine the guy is pretty busy. I just sent another polite request for answers to a few remaing Surge questions.

The folks at PT seem to monitor CPF (or are at least aware of it) and are probably aware of this thread outside the scope of my conversations with them. Hopefully they'll follow up soon and I can post the results in a day or so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Jon
[email protected]

PS - Never thought of using JB Weld. I have a few tubes laying around. If I don't get a satisfactory answer from PT I'll give it a shot, although it looks like I'll have to cut the switch board loose from it's rivets to get at the back side where the holder assembly is. If I'm going to do that I might as well just try to find a 5w Luxeon SE and maybe a BB700 board... Assuming I can get the lens located exactly where the original bulb's filament was...
 
StoneDog: Thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to hearing the official answer to this from Princeton Tec. Oh, BTW, I was referring to using the J.B. Weld on the front side, not the back. I'm pretty sure that it would work (J.B. Weld is some very strong stuff), but I want to hear from Princeton Tec first to see if they are going to do a recall or something before I get to experimenting too much on mine. Please continue to keep us up to date on what you hear back from Princeton Tec.
 
Hopefully PT figures this out soon. I'm having a hard just leaving the broken light sitting there. I'll need to send it back anyway, since it has a damaged lens, and there is solder stuck to the lens and reflector. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mecry.gif

BTW, if there is a PT representative monitoring this thread, would you be so kind as to drop us a line and let us know what's going on??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif
 
I wonder if JB Weld would work as a "potting compound" to make bi-pin sockets out of old PR bulb bases. Anyone tried it?
 
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