Questions about Surefire clones and unprotected RCR123s

[Tony Hanna]

Hopefully you guys can help me out here.
I'm looking for a decent light for work. Ideally I'd like to find something tough enough to survive in an industrial construction type environment (sealed against moisture, coal dust, fly ash, etc.) and inexpensive enough to not be a major concern if it gets stolen out of my dinner bucket or takes a 200' tumble off a scaffold. To that end, I've been looking at some of the Surefire clones available on Ebay. Particularly this one: Spiderfire L2 + 4x RCR123 + charger
Seems to me like a decent deal coming with 4 batteries and a charger. Not too sure about care and feeding of the unprotected Li-ions though. Any advice on that?

From searching around here it looks like the Spiderfire and Solarforce are the same light and I'm really liking the availability of different lamps, led drop-ins, tube extenders, and other accessories for the Solarforce. Assuming I can use them with the Spiderfire, it seems like it would be pretty easy to customize for the perfect balance of output, run time, and size. Also, I really enjoy tinkering with stuff, so it's attractive in that respect as well.

I guess I'd better get to the questions.

Safety first... What all is involved in safely using unprotected rcr123s? I don't want to kill the cells prematurely, but what I really want to avoid is and a house fire. If I have to sit and monitor voltage while they charge then that's fine, I just need to know what voltage to look for. I'll probably buy some protected batteries for it in the future but I'd like to use the ones that come with it for now.
Second, is this combo worth the money or could I get a better price buying the light and getting the batteries and charger (or everything) somewhere else?
Third, how bright is this going to be in it's stock configuration? As a point of reference, the brightest light I own is a 2AA Eveready Industrial with the battery rails filed to accept 3 cr123s overdriving a kpr112.
Fourth, how much of an advantage would it be to switch to an led at some point in the future? I guess I'm not sure if an led is better for run time, output or if an improvement in both can be had at the same time.

Any answers or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tony

 

[kramer5150]

The biggest problem with that setup is the short run times. I use the same hkequipment 7.4V Xenon lamp in my SF-M2, and I barely get 20 minutes of run per charge. I think its very close to the spec'd 125Lumens. Its got a nice round floody hot spot, which is very good compared to the ob-round spot from my P60 and P61.

IMHO there is a higher degree of risk as far as safety is concerned. Due to the high current draw of the LA and low capacity of the unprotected cells. I also am not sure how good/bad that charger is. So, IMHO there is an element of risk.

Someone had done a detailed comparison and IMHO that is the same thing as a solarforce L2.

On to your questions...
Lithium Ion safety is a whole sub forum discussion. See the Battery & electronics sub forum, all your questions can be answered there. Personally IMHO the biggest safety concern is NOT over charging / discharging any of the cells. I use this LA in my SF-M2, but I make certain not to over discharge the cells. Doing so could push one of the cells into cell reversal and that leads to explosion. Yes monitoring cell voltage is a must in a low $$$ charger. Biggest question I have with that charger is whether it terminates the charge on each cell individually at 4.2V?... not all budget chargers do.

IMHO the spec'd 125 Lumens seems about right. I recently compared this LA to a 400 Lumen SF-P91, and it was roughly half as bright. Being that Lumen brightness is a logarythmic scale, I would estimate this LA to be in the 100-150 Lumen ballpark. I am not sure how this compares to your current overdriven setup.

IMHO this setup is not worth the $$$ as your primary option, due to its 20 minute runtimes. But if you only need about 40 minutes of light per day, this could get you by... you'd just be recharging every night. It IS however a very good LA in terms of overall brightness, beam quality and color tint. I use it as a spot-use kind of thing to supplement my LED lights.

I am not sure how good quality that charger is.

IMHO you are better off going with a solarforce L2 1x18650 setup, with an LED drop in specifically designed for 3.7V, and a well respected charger.

oh yeah... :welcome:

 

[Tom_123]

Thinking about coal dust and fly ash, I wonder if you have to use explosion-proof
equipment in there. Better double check this.

Apart from that 1+ for the Solarforce 1x 18650 with LED drop in.

As for the Batteries and charger:
Personally I never use unprotected cells and wouldn't recommend them, but that's just me.

Unfortunately I have yet to find a decent charger, for now the cheap HXY-Charger
from KD / DX works for me somehow.

For safety (just in case) do the charging in a place with no flammable stuff around
and remove the cells as soon as there are loaded.

 

[seaside]

+1 to solarforce L2 1x 18650 setup.
Solid, durable, cheap but not cheapy, will give you nearly 2 hours of run time, and the best is, you won't bang your head when you lost it.

+1 to what Tom 123 said too. Get descent charger and protected battery.

 

[Tony Hanna]

Sorry about taking so long to reply. I was in the middle of typing this post earlier today and ended up getting sidetracked by the GF wanting to go to the animal shelter. I ended up bringing home a 2yo white GSD/Husky mix and she and our 4 month old Saint Bernard have finally tired out enough that I could get back to the computer.

The biggest problem with that setup is the short run times. I use the same hkequipment 7.4V Xenon lamp in my SF-M2, and I barely get 20 minutes of run per charge. I think its very close to the spec'd 125Lumens. Its got a nice round floody hot spot, which is very good compared to the ob-round spot from my P60 and P61.

IMHO there is a higher degree of risk as far as safety is concerned. Due to the high current draw of the LA and low capacity of the unprotected cells. I also am not sure how good/bad that charger is. So, IMHO there is an element of risk.

Someone had done a detailed comparison and IMHO that is the same thing as a solarforce L2.

On to your questions...
Lithium Ion safety is a whole sub forum discussion. See the Battery & electronics sub forum, all your questions can be answered there. Personally IMHO the biggest safety concern is NOT over charging / discharging any of the cells. I use this LA in my SF-M2, but I make certain not to over discharge the cells. Doing so could push one of the cells into cell reversal and that leads to explosion. Yes monitoring cell voltage is a must in a low $$$ charger. Biggest question I have with that charger is whether it terminates the charge on each cell individually at 4.2V?... not all budget chargers do.

IMHO the spec'd 125 Lumens seems about right. I recently compared this LA to a 400 Lumen SF-P91, and it was roughly half as bright. Being that Lumen brightness is a logarythmic scale, I would estimate this LA to be in the 100-150 Lumen ballpark. I am not sure how this compares to your current overdriven setup.

IMHO this setup is not worth the $$$ as your primary option, due to its 20 minute runtimes. But if you only need about 40 minutes of light per day, this could get you by... you'd just be recharging every night. It IS however a very good LA in terms of overall brightness, beam quality and color tint. I use it as a spot-use kind of thing to supplement my LED lights.

I am not sure how good quality that charger is.

IMHO you are better off going with a solarforce L2 1x18650 setup, with an LED drop in specifically designed for 3.7V, and a well respected charger.

oh yeah... :welcome:

Thanks for that!
40 minutes of runtime should be plenty. On an average shift, I doubt I'd even burn completely through the charge on the first set of cells.:thumbsup: Normal use would be a few seconds here and there to check sections of welds that aren't illuminated well by the plant lighting or stringer lights. A long run would be a few minutes to climb out of a boiler or down off a scaffold to reset the breaker for the stringer lights (and that's not all that frequent of an occurrence).

Is there any chance that I could find the led Solarforce you mentioned with the battery and charger for around the same price? If not, I think I may go ahead and get the Spiderfire and buy a led drop-in at a later date. I believe I recall reading that the body could be bored to accept an 18650 right? That should leave me able to switch between rcr123s/incan and 18650/led or maybe even add an extension tube and run the incan off of 2 18650s. That would be a significant increase in runtime right?
I'm really starting to see how this could turn into an addiction.

Thinking about coal dust and fly ash, I wonder if you have to use explosion-proof
equipment in there. Better double check this.

Apart from that 1+ for the Solarforce 1x 18650 with LED drop in.

As for the Batteries and charger:
Personally I never use unprotected cells and wouldn't recommend them, but that's just me.

Unfortunately I have yet to find a decent charger, for now the cheap HXY-Charger
from KD / DX works for me somehow.

For safety (just in case) do the charging in a place with no flammable stuff around
and remove the cells as soon as there are loaded.

For some of the chemical plants I would imagine there are situations where an explosion proof light would be required but the power plants I work the most in only recently banned smoking (and that for the health risk not anything to do with fire or explosion).

I've got the perfect place to test out the charger. A nice concrete patio that runs away from the house the entire length of my back yard.:thumbsup:

+1 to solarforce L2 1x 18650 setup.
Solid, durable, cheap but not cheapy, will give you nearly 2 hours of run time, and the best is, you won't bang your head when you lost it.

+1 to what Tom 123 said too. Get descent charger and protected battery.

I'm sure I will eventually. At that point, maybe I'll try the unprotected rcr123s in my Eveready mod. It won't get much use anyway because the plastic lens and reflector won't take the heat for long.

Thanks guys!

Tony

 

[rockz4532]

Don't discharge the batteries to under 3.5v, it can damage them. Protected cells will protect against it.
It won't go but it will decrease the capacity and number of cycles the battery will take.
:welcome:

 

[Zatoichi]

You can get a Solarforce L2 with "R2" LED dropin for $25 shipped (Solarforcestore), and a pair of Trustfire protected 18650 rechargables and a DSD charger for about $16 shipped (Dealextreme). That's a bit over what you planned to spend, but a better setup IMO. I don't know what the quality of the Spiderfire is like, but I have 3 Solarforce L2's and they're very impressive for the money.

 

[Tony Hanna]

Don't discharge the batteries to under 3.5v, it can damage them. Protected cells will protect against it.
It won't go but it will decrease the capacity and number of cycles the battery will take.
:welcome:

Thanks!
I've been meaning to ask about discharge. Is there a noticeable drop in output (assuming an incan lamp) that would serve to warn that it's time to shut down and swap out cells or will they pass into over-discharge with no warning? Also, is the 3.5v figure under load or no load? I'm guessing no load and they could sag below 3.5v during use but should recover to 3.5v or above once the load is removed or am I wrong?

I don't know what the quality of the Spiderfire is like, but I have 3 Solarforce L2's and they're very impressive for the money.

From what I understand, the Solarforce L2 and Spiderfire L2 are the exact same light, made by the same company, with the only difference being the name printed on them. I assume the quality would be identical between the two.
I ran across a discussion on it when I was searching to see if another brand's accessories would work with the Spiderfire.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=199961


So, here's what I'm thinking... Buy the Spiderfire and run it as-is for now because that's what I can afford (waiting on a call back to work from the union hall atm). Once I get a paycheck or two, I'd like to bore the body to take an 18650, buy a tube extension for a second 18650, a pair of AW IMR 18650s, and an IMR-9 500 lumens lamp from Lumens Factory. Obviously that configuration wouldn't be very practical for work, so I'll pick up an led drop-in at the same time. That should give me the option of stock, extended run time with the stock lamp and 18650s, led, and high output with limited runtime. If I pick up a nice small foam-lined case while I'm at it, I can keep everything in my dinner bucket and put together the perfect light for each different job.:twothumbs

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

Thanks,
Tony

 

[Zatoichi]

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

Thanks,
Tony

Sounds good to me. I would still be tempted to find an extra $10 and go for the Solarforce w/ R2 dropin which already fits 18650's, and get the DSD charger and a pair of ***fire protected cells. There again, t's easy to say it's only 10 or 11 dollars more. I do understand what it's like to have to count the pennies from time to time (especially since I found this place).

 

[Tony Hanna]

Sounds good to me. I would still be tempted to find an extra $10 and go for the Solarforce w/ R2 dropin which already fits 18650's, and get the DSD charger and a pair of ***fire protected cells. There again, t's easy to say it's only 10 or 11 dollars more. I do understand what it's like to have to count the pennies from time to time (especially since I found this place).

It's not so much that the $10 or $11 would break the bank, it's more an issue of me not being very good controlling spending and the snowball effect that would happen if I didn't set a limit and force myself to stick with it. In this case $30. Once I get called back to work, I'll be able to put some more money into it. At that point I could even buy the Solarforce and give the Spiderfire to the GF to carry in her purse.

 

[Tony Hanna]

Back to this idea, how does this deal look?
http://www.solarforcestore.com/servlet/the-948/18650-LED-FLASHLIGHT/Detail
If I'm reading the ad right, it comes with an R2 drop-in, and an 18650 battery leaving only a charger to buy which I can get from them for $6. I think I read somewhere that they ship for free, so that would get me the light you guys are recommending with an 18650 and charger all for within $1 of my budget.:twothumbs

Thanks,

Tony

EDIT: Just noticed that's the same light Zatoichi suggested in post #7. Don't know how I missed that.

 

[Black Rose]

The 18650 battery included in that deal is usually not the highest quality and are usually unprotected. Of the two I got, one battery was DOA but the other is fine.

Also, the circuitry in the supplied drop-ins do not have any over-discharge protection, so your best to use protected cells or shut the light off the moment you notice the output is starting to dim.

If you are looking for a good deal on budget protected 18650 cells, take a look at sku 20392 on Dealextreme.

 

[Black Rose]

BTW I am looking at getting a Spiderfire L2 (actually it's an X-03) Xenon as another cheap P60 host to go along with my pair of Solarforce L2 hosts (plus I want a Xenon light to play with ).

I had asked hkequipment if the battery tube of the Spiderfire L2 can accept an 18650 cell and they responded that it does in fact accept 18650 cells.

The 18650 won't power the Xenon module well (or at all?) but it is a good host for other drop-ins.

 

[Tony Hanna]

The 18650 battery included in that deal is usually not the highest quality and are usually unprotected. Of the two I got, one battery was DOA but the other is fine.

Also, the circuitry in the supplied drop-ins do not have any over-discharge protection, so your best to use protected cells or shut the light off the moment you notice the output is starting to dim.

If you are looking for a good deal on budget protected 18650 cells, take a look at sku 20392 on Dealextreme.

Thanks! I'd seen DX mentioned here but I've been having trouble getting their site to load. It worked this time around. I'll have to check it out and see what all they've got. That does look like a really good deal on the cells though. I'll keep that in mind about shutting off at the first sign of dimming with the unprotected cell and I'll grab some protected ones at the first opportunity that I have a few extra bucks to spend.
Thanks Again,

Tony

 

[Tony Hanna]

BTW I am looking at getting a Spiderfire L2 (actually it's an X-03) Xenon as another cheap P60 host to go along with my pair of Solarforce L2 hosts (plus I want a Xenon light to play with ).

I had asked hkequipment if the battery tube of the Spiderfire L2 can accept an 18650 cell and they responded that it does in fact accept 18650 cells.

The 18650 won't power the Xenon module well (or at all?) but it is a good host for other drop-ins.

That's interesting! I'd seen a post here that said the id on the Spiderfire body was 17.x mm (17.3 maybe?) and wouldn't take an 18650. It did strike me as odd though for Solarforce/Spiderfire to use a different body between their 1x18650 LEDs and 2xcr123 incans. Maybe they finally consolidated?

After looking around, what I really want to do is run an extension tube with 2x imr 18650s and a LF IMR-9 lamp for something neat and then be able to drop back to a LED or lower power incan to get decent runtime for using the light at work. Only problem is that I need to get back to work before I can start buying all the other goodies.

 

[Tony Hanna]

The mail man dropped off my Solarforce L2-R2 today.:twothumbs It came with a blue ultrafire 18650 which I'm assuming is unprotected. I put the battery on the volt meter first off and it measured 3.9x volts, so I guess this one is safe to use?

I charged it up with the volt meter on it and the light on the charger did turn green at 4.2v however I watched it rise to 4.21 after the light turned green so I guess it's still trying to charge and I should pull the cell as soon as the light changes?

After the battery charged, I popped it in the light, and wow! This thing blows my little 3xcr123-kpr112 Eveready out of the water.

I also switched my volt meter over to amps and measured .91 at the tail. Not sure if that's good or bad, but there it is...

Overall I'm really impressed with the build quality of the light. Thread engagement is nice and smooth, and the o-rings seem to fit well. The included (ultrafire brand) holster was a nice touch. I wouldn't say the quality of the holster matches the quality of the light, but it appears to be perfectly serviceable. My only gripe is with the amount of travel needed to engage the switch. It makes working the switch with a thumb a bit of a pain. Hopefully I can solve that with a little shim between the button and the inside of the switch cover though.

I'll probably play with different drop-ins and pick up some protected cells as money allows, but I think this is going to work perfectly for what I "need" in it's stock configuration.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys!

Tony

EDIT: I may have spoken too soon. For some reason it's started flickering and then dimming to around 15% of it's normal output. When it does this, switching it off and then back on will usually sort it out (at least for a second or two). I'm not sure if the problem is in the switch or with the drop-in itself at this point.

EDIT#2: Fixed. There is a little black plastic ring that fits into the center of the aluminum retaining ring in the tail cap. The plastic ring is too thick and causing the aluminum ring not to make good contact with the switch assembly. It's working perfectly with the plastic ring removed, but I may file it down some and put it back in.