Safety Discussion; It’s NOT “just a flashlight” anymore!

[Phlogiston]

Am I making a mistake by keeping a surefire Kroma with a panasonic protected 18650 on my night stand next to my head every night? Now I'm getting a little nervous. Would two surefire cr123as be safer?

Personally, I'd rather have the single protected 18650 than the two CR123A cells.

When you have two CR123As in series, there's a risk that one cell will run out of charge before the other, at which point the depleted cell will be reverse charged and could rupture. There have been several cases documented here on CPF where that's happened.

Note that CR123As have no protection circuit to prevent that, whereas the protected 18650 will trip out before it discharges to an unsafe level. This is why protected Li-Ions are often recommended for use when a light requires them in series.

On a different point: I posted a couple of comments on the BLF version of this thread, which people here might find interesting:

http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1289243#comment-1289243
http://budgetlightforum.com/comment/1289263#comment-1289263

 

[Lumen83]

Okay, thanks everyone. This has all been great info. I'm going to keep the light on the night stand. It will come in handy incase that space station comes crashing down on my house haha.

 

[ArazelEternal]

I would say I am a bit wary of li-ion and primaries, but Im not really concerned about them or anything. Call it having a respect for them, if you will, just like you have respect for a drill, saw or any other tool you use. That is enough to keep bad things from happening because of neglect or stupid decisions.

 

[Modernflame]

I don't allow muggles to handle my li-on powered lights. Only eneloops for them.

 

[Ishango]

Some valid points here about safety. And I agree that the state of our hobby is coming closer to power tools. Thank you for starting this discussion.

I've been pretty strictly about li ion care and handling for a long time. The Emisar D4 triggered similar thoughts to yours recently. I was thinking, man, this thing is so awesome bright... but I'm under the impression they only take unprotected cells, I've read at least one report of the thing draining a cell completely dry (not something I want to do), and then there's the whole "it lights stuff on fire" thing. As an enthusiast, the light makes me giddy, and I might pick one up just for the giddy factor. But I'm thinking I'm crossing it off my "buy it to carry and use" list, I think it might have passed my threshold of "how big a consequence can a small mistake have?".

As an enthusiast I too bought the Emisar D4 and as a light I really like it a lot, but reading about these issues and knowing I'm not that strict in checking my batteries or usually just too busy for it. Besides I don't really have a use for such a bright light anyway. So I decided to sell it. For me I feel at least a bit more secure using protected 18650 cells.

 

[harro]

There's a better chance that the Chinese space station de-orbits next week and falls on your house, than there is the Pannie blowing up in your light while you sleep.

Seriously.

Chris

Totally agree. As others have said also.
Don't cheap out on your 18650's,
Go for quality, protected cells.
Don't buy that 50,000 lm light when 2,200 will do the job.
Make sure your cells are somewhat balanced if multiple,
and don't intentionally run them down to their cutoff.
Number of times I've carried and pocketed a pipe bomb in 15 years........Never.

:wave:

Agree with the shining the light in someones eyes thing. High power stuff IS available OTS in hardware stores etc. But you wont ever fix stupid unfortunately, no matter how hard you try.
Hopefully, that's something that we enlightened members and guests would never do, knowing better, and we pass that on to those around us.

 

[idleprocess]

Re: Safety Discussion; It’s NOT “just a flashlight” anymore!

We have surely moved leaps and bounds from where we came from. 15 years ago what the broader public considered 'flashlights' were mildly fiddly things that put out single- or double-digit lumens for tens of minutes and ran on alkaline cells. Now we have pocketable multi kilo-lumen flashlights (truly not something I expected to happen so soon when I first got into this hobby nearly 15 years ago) running on far more energetic and energy-dense lithium cells that can run for up to an hour; much longer if you graduate to something the size of the classic 2D maglite.

For the sake this discussion, I'm assuming LED flashlights and lithium cells:

• Light output: Vision degradation
  Modern LEDs put out a heck of a lot of light in from a relatively tiny emitting area. Just staring at a LED bare die running at middling output is uncomfortable; doing so at full power almost universally triggers the blink reflex. Unlike the HID flashlights of ~10 years ago, LED is widespread and lends itself to minuscule, pocket-able footprints. Unlike catching the main beam on a mag-lite 15 years ago, doing so with a modern LED at a medium or high mode is apt to close down your night vision for multiple minutes. Careless prolonged exposure could result in more enduring vision issues.
  
• Light output: Safety hazard
  It's now almost trivial to pocket a flashlight with more intensity and throw than a car headlight. One must exercise some degree of caution and deliberate usage when in the vicinity of roads so as not to flash drivers when using lest one dazzle motorists; unlike being flashed by high beams most motorists likely aren't expecting such behavior from random pedestrians.
  
• Light output: Public nuisance
  As a corollary to the above and without permission, one should exercise care not to illuminate others' outdoor property to a degree markedly greater than ambient light and especially not the interior of their residences. I personally make a point when walking the dogs at night not to illuminate far beyond sidewalk plus leash radius and only use as much light as I need. I occasionally give into the temptation to illuminate my own house, my parked vehicle, and the underside of airliners as they approach DFW International some ~1000' directly overhead, but otherwise keep the light pointed down for the most part.
  
• Fire hazard: Accidental activation
  We've surely seen enough photos of burned pockets, backpacks, etc to know that the absorbed light plus heat dumped into the head will cause charring, melt some synthetics, and can cause fires. I make a point to lockout all Li-ion lights whenever possible by physically breaking contact to the point that the light can't be accidentally switched on. Only my 'multi-fuel' Manker Mk41 makes this inconvenient by nature of the circuit bypassing the tailcap; I use the electronic lockout for this one.
  
• Fire hazard: Cell defect
  The great cell lottery... I make a point to strongly prefer cells made by reputable OEMs - Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony, Samsung, LG. This is easier with bare 18650s than protected 18650s (only available from 3rd parties) or less common formfactors such as 16650s, 18350s, 14500s, etc; in those cases I go with names that don't end in -fire and have some reputation/staying power in the market such as Keeppower, Orbtronic, Fenix, or Nitecore.
  
• Fire hazard: Cell charging
  Similar to my stance on batteries, avoid brand names ending in -fire and buy a good charger. I strongly prefer a charger with a few more features than the typical cheap 2-color "charging/done" indicator. I prefer a display and some ability to control current. Display needs to tell me voltage, present charging current, duration of charge, and ideally some bonuses such as mAH and where it is in the charge cycle.
  
  Another factor is where one charges. Indoors on a cleared table or desk, monitored is OK. Outdoors (but out of the elements) with some provisions for fire, monitored, is better. Indoors out of sight under a bunch of detritus with no airflow, fire-and-forget is not OK and invites disaster. I've always been tempted to do something akin to some of the more serious hobby RC chargers with some provision for fire containment but not to the cinder-block/sand bunker arrangement I've heard about at some RC club get-togethers.
  
  It's not a bad idea to own a multimeter when dealing with li-ion cells. So long as you don't insist on the likes of Fluke they're inexpensive and helpful for determining state of charge. Sure, chargers with displays will tell you the voltage, but it's generally easier to use a multimeter for such tasks.
  
• Fire hazard: Cell mishandling
  This covers a number of potential issues.
  
  Running multiple cells in series behooves the user to ensure they're reasonably matched - same make, same model, same level of charge.
  
  Protection circuits - be they in cells or lights - are good things that should be used whenever appropriate. But they should not be relied on absolutely. Chargers should either be li-ion specific or have robust li-ion protocols baked into their design. Lights should not be run until they simply won't turn on anymore. Cells should not be run up to the hairy edge of their protection circuit limits.
  
  Modern lights - particularly the ever-popular pocket rocket niche - probably shouldn't be run full blast all the time. All that heat they generate goes into more than just the LEDs, the housing, and your hand. Li-ion cells generate sufficient heat in operation - best to let them cool down by limiting the blasting away into the night.
  
  Lithium cells need to be handled with care. As has been mentioned by others repeatedly, if dropped they need to be examined. Care needs to be taken not tot drop them. I prefer to keep mine in cases containing small numbers of them - no more than 8 per and with some provision for shock-absorption.
  
  Somewhat same for the flashlight themselves. Use a bit more care when using one of these modern lights - keep a bit more of a firm grip on them than a NiMH/alkaline lamp, don't grip them in your mouth if you don't have to, treat them with a little more care so as not to put stress on the cell via squeezing the body or compressing the ends.

 

[bykfixer]

Re: Safety Discussion; It’s NOT “just a flashlight” anymore!

My Mag 2C with low resistance parts and high temps guts with a Pelican Big D bulb (ROP) and Panasonic 18650's capable of 36 amps scares me.
That baby heats up quickly.

But it sure is fun using it to turn off the neighbors porch lights 100 feet away. :devil: