Still The King of the Hill: M6?

[batman]

It seems like no one besides js has really made a viable alternative to primaries in the M6., ie you still have to put together a gadget salad bought from who knows where, then jerry rig it to work using some parts you even fabricate yourself. Then deal with the added mechanical fragility, lamp and battery failures, the never ending rechargable battery issues,.. It's 2008 and i still don't think anyone has out-engineered SF on this one.
I've been on CPF just long enough to know I'm not interested in getting a PHd in rechargable batteries.
i've heard more than one person say they've tried several home made wizzbangs like the mag 85, ROP, etc, and still come back to the M6 MN21 w/primaries. Any thoughts?
It seems to me like rechargable battery technology is still infantile to begin with,..always getting better and better, especially in RC hobby field,..better to sit back and wait maybe,..like with LEDs.

 

[Sgt. LED]

Well I have a nice 2x18650 holder in mine and it does what I need it to.
And mdocod is making a 3X17650 version next I think.

 

[batman]

interesting

 

[Taboot]

I agree that Surefire nailed it. I do wish that a turn-key MN-21 rechargeable solution was available, though. Maybe there is, I don't know.

 

[mdocod]

Hi batman

Several of us have been running the MN21 on a pair of 18650 Emoli cells for awhile now. Some in 2x18650 adapters in the M6, and I've heard at least one report of someone using this setup in a 2x18650 body.

Result is about 15 minutes of reasonably stable output, which is pretty comparable to the realistic runtime of the MN21 on the 6xCR123 pack.

The MN21 is definitely overdriven on this configuration, a very low value NTC can be used to improve bulb life- but no failures reported yet using 18650 Emoli cells directly. 26670 size cells would probably blow this bulb, so the smaller cell is actually a blessing on this configuration.

I've probably put about an hour on the MN21 so far on Emoli cells, so will try to keep rough track of runtime and see how long the bulb lasts.

The nice thing about Lithium Manganese secondary cells (Emoli, and several other brands now) is that they can be treated more like NIMH cells, they are a safe chemistry that can tolerate some abuse, an accidental overcharge or over-discharge one and awhile is not likely to cause major problems. They can be charged on a normal 3.7V li-ion charger. But I do suggest one that has been determined not to trickle charge after the charge is complete, as those could overcharge these cells severely if left on by accident for a long period of time as these cells are not protected, (no real need to be protected provided the charger used is decent).

-------------------------------------------------

Sgt. LED

I do not have any plans to make a 3x17670 adapter at this time. Sorry

I *might* look into designs for a 6xR/CR123 size adapter (like the SF adapter) but with all cells in series to open up some options. There are a number of 12+V G4 base bi-pin bulbs out there begging to be experimented (overdriven) with in an M6 with FMs bi-pin MN socket. I would have to run an interest thread to see if there is enough demand for such a product.

 

[Sgt. LED]

 

[Wattnot]

I'm just getting to know my new M6 and I'm using mdocod's Emoli solution with the stock MN21 and I love it. It's quite "viable" and not at all "jerry rigged" (whatever that is) like you say.

That coming from someone who was turning into an LED guy. The price turned me off at first but I'm getting used to that knowing I can get my money back with the recent (and unfortunate) price increase.

The M6 throws like mad and puts a large spot out there too so it's almost like the best of both worlds (throw and flood but it is more of a thrower than a flooder).

Yes, the M6 is still King of the Hill. :twothumbs

 

[Taboot]

Hi batman

Several of us have been running the MN21 on a pair of 18650 Emoli cells for awhile now. Some in 2x18650 adapters in the M6, and I've heard at least one report of someone using this setup in a 2x18650 body.

Brief thread hi-jack warning;
Hi mdocod,

I'm looking into your 2x18650 adaptor and EMolis for my M6.Where can I get 18650 EMoli cells?
Thanks for your time,

Mike

 

[mdocod]

Hi Taboot,

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=185950
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=205814
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=203788

Those three threads have a fair bit of information about the cells, and some discussion about where they come from (power tools). Different brands are using different sizes and brands of new safe chemistry cells. I'm sitting on 10 18650 Emoli cells from the Older Ryobi brand li-ion one+ packs. I've heard that Ryobi has switched to a Sanyo made cell, (that is actually a little better in some ways).

In those threads, there are a number of links to an RC forum where these cells are much more popular and more people have done work with them. So the best information can probably be found over there. LuxLuthor has contributed a lot on this front both on this forum and the RC forum from what I can tell.

Originally I bought 4 Emoli cells from LuxLuthor, then tore down a pack myself and kept 6 for myself, with the 4 remaining cells going to a friend in a trade agreement.

You can tear a pack down yourself (will require some security bits usually, and some good needle nose pliers, and a dremel to clean up the cells, amongst other common tools). Or you might contact Luxluthor to see if he is selling any more of them.

AW is also coming out with his own version of these safe chemistry cells, in both 18650 and RCR123 size, last I heard they are a few weeks out, but that might be the easiest way to get these cells.

----------------------------

As for the 2x18650 adapter, I'm out of stock now, but assuming that my wholesaler wasn't lying to me, my threaded rod and thumb nuts should be here by this afternoon and I can finish up a batch of another ~30 adapters that I have mostly complete at this time. I'm headed out the the garage right now to finish cutting and cleaning up the support rods for this next batch

Eric

 

[kelmo]

It's still the King of my little hill!!!

 

[Patriot]

The M6 is "king of the hill" because there is a small market for a light that burns off 6 primaries in 20 minutes. A flashlight manufacturer would be crazy to venture into that territory and attempt to challenge surefire in such a light category. In that respect yes, the M6 doesn't really have a challenger.

For many CPFers the primary option just doesn't make a lot of sense if the light is being used on a daily or weekly basis. We have the information and resources at hand to run the M6 in a much more practical manor with Li-ions. Primaries have a place and afterall the M6 was designed around them. I'm not trying to say that the professional (police/military/self defense) user should switch, I'm just saying rechargables are a practical alternative for most users to burning through $30 per hour of run-time primaries.

The "wizzbang" fixes have been produced by some of the most talented individuals on the CPF and have proven to be very reliable. They also don't have any special fitting requirements and everything is for the most part, "drop-in." For example, all you need to run the MN21 is this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=204701, some protected AW 18650's and a battery charger for them. No battery PHD needed. Of course you can take it to the next level and install a bi-pin socket but for somebody just needed a basic recharge option, Eric's kit is pretty much unbeatable.

In my opinion the CPF modders have transformed the M6 into a much more flexible, useful and interesting platform and in that respect I believe the stock configuration has been unseated as king of the hill. I now own 5 M6's and none of them are running on primaries as their default set-up. This is because for my purposes the mods have proven to be more powerful while still having better run-times and with perfect reliability thus far. Two of my M6's can be converted back to completely stock with nothing more than switching back to the stock battery carrier, so I don't feel as if I'm limited the light in any way. If anything the mission flexibility has been increased.

 

[batman]

Well, this definately educates me more on the subject., thanks for the responses all. I'm definately tempted by the performance of the rechargable mods, especially after seeing the M6 beamshots shoot-out thread. Some of them seem to blow away the stock setup, which is what grabbed my interest in them in the first place. I can understand that some individuals do need to use the light on a regular basis which more or less demands a rechargable solution..I guess I didn't think of that. I'll definately keep reading.
I also do not mean to offend anyone who makes or uses the rechargable set-ups.

 

[cl0123]

King of the hill?

I do not know enough flashlights to agree or to dispute, but I do have a couple of observations to share.

When I received the M6, the piece of gear that drew my attention most was the battery carrier. Although it is relatively easy to insert the cells into the chambers, I still have a hard time (perhaps lack of calcium, or wimpy nails) prying the cells out without a flat screwdriver blade. Lots of thoughts and engineering seemed to have been put into the carrier design to keep all six tiny 123 cells "captive" even if the light is to encounter any physical trauma. In addition, the chamber adds a lot of rigiditiy or strength to the light as a whole, which is otherwise just an hollow almuminum tube. I hate to admit it, but I actually let my light (empty tube, no carrier inside, no tailcap) rolled off the table and dropped about 3 feet onto hardwood floors. When I heard the light rolling off the table, my instinct of course was to catch it. Then my "evil" mind kicked in wishing to find out if this SUREfire thing was really as tough as it claims to be (supposedly GI-proof). Sure enough, just a moment of hesitation and the light did free-fall. No visible damage that I can see and the light is still blasting blinding beams.

I'm now a bit embarassed because for the longest time, I thought emoli is just another name for the 18650 Lithium-ion cells. Thanks for posting the links to LuxLuthor threads. Lots more to read and learn. A few AW 18650s should be coming into my mailbox any day now. I have one mdocod 2x18650 holder and am eager to try it out. Hope the AW won't blow up too many bulbs. For fun play or non-essential uses, rechargeable would be my first choice, for obvious economics reason. Otherwise, I agree with batman and would definitely go with primes (lots of them) and all OEM stuffs if the mission is critical.

With Aloha,

Clarence

 

[Wattnot]

for the most part, "drop-in." For example, all you need to run the MN21 is this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=204701, some protected AW 18650's and a battery charger for them.

I don't believe you will be able to run regular protected 18650's with the MN21. That is what all of the hub-bub with Emoli cells is about. The current draw is too high. I didn't test this for myself but it is my understanding it will not work. If it does light up at all it will kill the cells in short order. Chances are the protection circuitry will trip and you'll have no light anyway. It might work with the MN20, however. It will also work with unprotected cells but have a fire extinguisher very close by and be prepared to lose the M6 and some nearby property as well !!

The Emoli cells are not only a safer chemistry but they can handle a much higher current draw. The downsides are lower capacity and harder to get.

 

[mdocod]

As wattnot has stated, AWs protected 18650s are NOT suitable for use with the MN21. They are perfectly fine for plenty of other bulbs though, and I have heard GREAT things about the EO-M3T, brighter and better beam than the MN20 on 2x18650s.

AW protected 18650s can safely and reliable run:
MN15
MN16
MN20
HO-M3T
EO-M3T
many 6V 20W ~100hr bi-pin lamps in a FM bi-pin socket. (like the WA01111)

Emoli, or other LiMn 18650 cells can run all of those bulbs, and a few more, like:
MN21
5761
64275 (if you can find one that fits)
or any other bulb operating up around or above the 30W+ range (4 amps or more power consumption)

 

[Taboot]

Hi Taboot,

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=185950
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=205814
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=203788

Those three threads have a fair bit of information about the cells, and some discussion about where they come from (power tools). Different brands are using different sizes and brands of new safe chemistry cells. I'm sitting on 10 18650 Emoli cells from the Older Ryobi brand li-ion one+ packs. I've heard that Ryobi has switched to a Sanyo made cell, (that is actually a little better in some ways).

In those threads, there are a number of links to an RC forum where these cells are much more popular and more people have done work with them. So the best information can probably be found over there. LuxLuthor has contributed a lot on this front both on this forum and the RC forum from what I can tell.

Originally I bought 4 Emoli cells from LuxLuthor, then tore down a pack myself and kept 6 for myself, with the 4 remaining cells going to a friend in a trade agreement.

You can tear a pack down yourself (will require some security bits usually, and some good needle nose pliers, and a dremel to clean up the cells, amongst other common tools). Or you might contact Luxluthor to see if he is selling any more of them.

AW is also coming out with his own version of these safe chemistry cells, in both 18650 and RCR123 size, last I heard they are a few weeks out, but that might be the easiest way to get these cells.

----------------------------

As for the 2x18650 adapter, I'm out of stock now, but assuming that my wholesaler wasn't lying to me, my threaded rod and thumb nuts should be here by this afternoon and I can finish up a batch of another ~30 adapters that I have mostly complete at this time. I'm headed out the the garage right now to finish cutting and cleaning up the support rods for this next batch

Eric

Eric,

Thanks for the thread links! I got lost for 4 hours in EMoli, A123, LiPoly land. I think to avoid my own confusion, I will wait for AW to release his "safe chem" 18650, get your adapter and figure out the charger. Quick question: If 2 x 3.7 V Emoli > 3 x 3 V CR123, then I assume CR123s sag more (under MN21 load) and the MN21 is really not a 9V light?

Thanks,

Mike.

 

[mdocod]

the MN21 runs about 5 amps, and splits that load between 2 banks of 3 CR123s in series in it's stock configuration. Or about 2.5A drain rate from the cells.

Go here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67078

Silverfox did a number of discharge tests on popular CR123s at 2.5A drain rate, as this is the common drain rate of SureFire HOLA lamps on CR123s. You'll see that for the most part, these cells sag to ~2.2V per cell (give or take) under this load...

So yes, the Mn21 is not a 9V lamp, it is in fact, closer to a 6.6V lamp And yes, a pair of Emoli 18650s maintain higher voltage under this load than 6 CR123s (in a 2P3S confiugration), an nearly match them for runtime.

CR123 shine then they are used in slower drain rate applications, or short bursts (like charging a camera flash). They have a lot of watt-hours in them, but most gets wasted as heat in high drain continuous discharges.

 

[Taboot]

the MN21 runs about 5 amps, and splits that load between 2 banks of 3 CR123s in series in it's stock configuration. Or about 2.5A drain rate from the cells.

Go here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=67078

Silverfox did a number of discharge tests on popular CR123s at 2.5A drain rate, as this is the common drain rate of SureFire HOLA lamps on CR123s. You'll see that for the most part, these cells sag to ~2.2V per cell (give or take) under this load...

So yes, the Mn21 is not a 9V lamp, it is in fact, closer to a 6.6V lamp And yes, a pair of Emoli 18650s maintain higher voltage under this load than 6 CR123s (in a 2P3S confiugration), an nearly match them for runtime.

CR123 shine then they are used in slower drain rate applications, or short bursts (like charging a camera flash). They have a lot of watt-hours in them, but most gets wasted as heat in high drain continuous discharges.

Thanks for this information Eric. :thumbsup:

 

[ampdude]

Two of the AW "C" cells appear to overdrive the MN21 a bit much. I wonder if two of the Emoli 18650's will be nicer to the bulb in this respect. I don't know if their voltage drop under load is the same as regular lithium ion cells.

Personally, I really like the 3 X 17670 & HO-M6R setup, but I also like a rechargeable setup that I can change batteries with on the fly, without having to also change bulbs.

If I could reliably run an MN21 on two Emoli 18650's, and then swap in a battery carrier with 6 SF CR123a's when I need longer runtime, that in my opinion would also be an excellent setup. :twothumbs

 

[js]

Is the M6 still king of the hill?

The short answer: no.

The long answer: it depends on your useage patterns and needs. It depends on what you value and what you're looking for. If you just want lots of light, there are many mods that will beat the M6. If you're looking for value/$ then the M6 was never the king of the hill. If you're looking for throw, the M6 isn't king of the hill. Etc. etc.

That said, if I had to get rid of all but just two or three or four lights, the M6 would be one of the ones I would keep. In my experience, owning and using an M6 is deeply satisfying. It definitely rocks. And I would stress that even if you didn't want to go the rechargeable M6, bi-pin socket, etc. route, that the MN20 and MN15 are really great drop-in lamps that give you 1 hour and 2.5 hours of runtime, and nice white light. I have been running my M6 with the MN15 for over a year now, and it is an eminently useful and effective combination.