Strange Problems With Low Cost AA Lithiums In My PT Apex

[GCBStokes]

After years of paying a lot of money on name brand CR123A 3 Volt Lithium Batteries to use in our Flashlight and Headlights. I finally decided to give some lower cost CR123A batteries a try. I was told of the Titanium Brand Batteries from Amondotech.com that were only $1.00 each and the Tenergy Brand CR123A Batteries from Batteryjunction.com were also only $1.00 each, less if you buy 50 or more! I was a little hesitant at first but then decided to get 50 of each for testing. I tested them in all our lights and found that they performed wonderfully! I fact in some of our lights such as the Streamlight TL-2 (2nd Gen.) LED, Streamlight Scorpion LED, SureFire L1 (1st & 2nd Gen.), SureFire E2L, L5 and L6 lights the Titanium and/or Tenergy CR123A Batteries performed as well, and is some case better then other batteries we used and tested including the $3.75 to $5.00 each name brand CR123A's! So, these lower cost but high quality CR123A Lithium Battery perform great and saved us a great deal of money each year now.


When my research group and I switch to the Princeton Tec Apex Headlamps this year, I had read a great post here on the CandlePowerForum regarding runtime with NiMH Rechargeable Batteries in the PT Apex. So, I decided to go with the NiMH Rechargeable. I found that the Titanium 2700 mAh AA NiMH Batteries from Amondotech.com and the Tenergy 2600 mAh AA NiMH Batteries from Batterystation.com perform admirable! They give us over 3 hrs and 40 mins of regulated runtime on the 3 watt high setting, and more then 12 hours of regulated runtime on the low 3 watt setting! Using the 5 mm LEDs we get just about 10 hours of regulated runtime on high, and around 24 hours on low. In the field working, on camping trips and hiking I can take 3 sets of NiMH AA's and my chargers are AC and DC power so I can charge the batteries in my truck. These batteries also hold their charge for a very long time, I have a set of Titanium 2700 mAh AA's that I charged over 3 weeks ago, and have used a short time in one of my Apex Headlamps, and they are still at 80% capacity! So, I don't see a need to use another power source.


Oops! There is one. My research team does have to work long hours at night in very cold weather this time of years. I also Iike to camp and hike year-round. So, the one weakness of these NiMH Batteries would be cold weather performance so I would then need Lithium AA's in my Apex. I got some Energizer Lithium AA and they work wonderfully giving me just about 5 hours of regulated runtime on high. They can be a little pricy if needed all the time, but I would only need them in the cold months. But I though I would check into some lower cost Lithium AA, after all the lower cost CR123A Lithium do so well. I got some Powerizer Lithium Iron AA's and another brand to try. The Powerizers were $29.95 for 20 and the other brand was about $5.00 per 4 pack. I tried out a few of each brand and was hoping to have the same good luck as I did with the lower cost CR123A's. However, when I got the batteries I put a set in one of Apex Headlamps to try out when working in the field that night. Well, it was a good thing I had my other Apex with the Energizer Lithiums. With the lower cost batteries I got just about 35 minutes of runtime before my low battery blink started!

The next day I opened each pack of the low cost Lithium AA and tested them on my ZTS Mult-Battery Tester (MBT-1) and none fo the batteries tested above 40%, most were 20% or lower, and some didn't even regester at all! The one dealer is refunding my money and with that, I'll get a few 8 packes of the Energizer Lithium AA to replace the lower cost ones. However, the dealer that I got the Powerizers Lithium AA's from wants me to ship to old batteries and pay the return-shipping of the replacements! With my first order, the return shipping and the shipping for the replacements, I could get an 8 pack of Energizer Lithium AA's! So, I thought I'd just keep those and use them arould the house. The strange thing is, even though the batteries tested at 20% or less, I got close 3 hours of runtime out of a set yesterday. How can that be? I tested 40 Energizer AA Lithium and they all tested at 100%, and I use two tester just to be sure.

Does any one know how that could be and has any one else had this problem with low cost Lithium AA's? I would never buy this batteries again, but I was just curious of how with 4 AA Lithium cells in my Apex at 20% capacity or less, how is it that my Apex would still run for almost 3 hours before getting a low battery blink?

 

[TMorita]

This should be in electronics, but my guess is the cheaper batteries have a higher internal resistance. When the battery tester tests them at high load, the voltage drops significantly, and the tester reports a low percentage of capacity remaining even though the battery is nearly new.

Toshi

 

[speederino]

I don't know how cold your very cold weather gets, but Sanyo's documentation on their eneloop rechargeable NiMH cells shows good performance down to 14 degrees fahreheit. You might want to try out some eneloops and see if they work for you.

 

[GCBStokes]

TMorita,

This should be in electronics

Sorry about that, as you said it would have been better posted under electronics. I will be more careful next time.

I tested two more sets today, one set gave me 1 hour 5 minutes runtime after testing at 10 to 20% (two batteries tested at 10% two at 20%) the other sets all four batteries tested at 10% and gave me only 52 minutes of runtime (Regulated runtime). I think it's better to just toss the rest of them and stick with the Energizer Lithium AA's when Lithiums are needed. Spring is right around the corner, I hope! Then I'll be using the NiMH AA's all the time.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[GCBStokes]

speederino,

I don't know how cold your very cold weather gets, but Sanyo's documentation on their eneloop rechargeable NiMH cells shows good performance down to 14 degrees fahreheit. You might want to try out some eneloops and see if they work for you.

Thank you for your reply, and I may check into the Sanyo Eneloop NiMH Rechargeable AA to use in my Apex. However, thought not all the time, I do work in temperatures below 14 degrees F. Tonight I'm working in Sussex County New Jersey and the Forecast is calling for 3 to 5 degree F. tonight. It's nesting season for Barn Owls and and there are eggs in the nesting boxes, and the little ones should be hatching anytime. Great Horned and Barred Owls are also getting busy, and the other Birds Of Pray will soon follow. So, I may just stick with the Lithium Iron when working in the cold. The weather should be warming up soon, then I can switch to the NiMH AA.

Thank you again.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello GCB Stokes,

Why don't you "toss" them my way and I will do some testing in them... If you are interested, PM me for my shipping address.

This chemistry is very difficult to get a good test on with the ZTS tester. The Energizer cells actually can read higher voltage when they are partially used, whereas the other brands start off with a lower voltage, then the voltage will rise during use.

At any rate, we are still trying to figure these cells out.

Tom

 

[lrp]

You really have a interesting job GCB!! I'm an avid hunter and outdoorsman and would love to study the birds you mentioned!!

 

[LED king]

the cold weather performance has to do with the chemical build-up of the cells Mi-MH and most li-ion are not so good with this. the chemical conductivity reduces when the temp get colder. this great a lower voltage of the cells special li-ion cells most of the time don't work below 0C because by temps around -10C the voltage is at the cut off voltage of the cell 2,5V so you can not drean any current any more. After some time discharge this will get better because the cell temperature will increase because of the discharge current. some cells don't have this problem like the Sony power tool li-ion cells like the US18650VT cells they work up to -20C they have a better chemical build-up that works well with low temps to

 

[cave dave]

If its that cold wouldn't you be wearing a nice warm hood on your jacket? And wouldn't that hood and your head keep the batteries warm?

You should at least try the rechargeables at cold temps. I find they work just fine.

 

[NoFair]

I use Li-ions (Sanyo and Panasonic) and NiMHs at down to -35C with no problems at all. I do get lower runtimes, but I'd estimate at least 60-70% of normal use.

I don't use a hood unless it is very windy or if I'm sitting still.

I usually keep Lithium primaries as spares, but they are rarely used.

Sverre

 

[GCBStokes]

cave dave,

If its that cold wouldn't you be wearing a nice warm hood on your jacket? And wouldn't that hood and your head keep the batteries warm?

You should at least try the rechargeables at cold temps. I find they work just fine.

If we are working on the ground, that does work. Or we wear a wool cap and stretch it over the battery pack. However, much of my work in the cold months is done from 12 to 30 feet up in a tree or post mounted nesting box. This requires us to use helmets with our Apex Headlamps mounted over our helmets, and our hoods just won't fit over it all.

In a few more weeks I'll be almost done working with Owls and Birds Of Pray. Then I'll be working with Song Birds who nest later in the Spring, as you most likely already know. But by then I won't need lithium cells and will be using NiMH Rechargeables because the weather will be warmer. Then I'll have a set or two of Lithium and/or Alkaline AA's as back up.

I have tried the NiMH AA batteries in the cold and they don't do well at all below 24 degrees when working extended hours into the night and morning hours. Our Duracell, Tenergy or Titanium NiMH AA work down to about 28 degrees with reduced runtime. But when it gets colder then that we start have trouble with them. At 24 degree we get about 35 or 40 minute before they start going dim, and will stop working a few minute after that. If it's 15 degrees or colder, forget about it!

Cave Dave, I see your in Virginia. I spend time in Shenandoah National Park a few time each year, or as often as I can. People have told me of large caves big enough for me 6'5" 280 lbs. Judging from you screen name, your a caver? I would like to visit caves large enough to walk in. Is it truth they have great walk through caves in Virginia?

Thanks for the reply.

 

[BackBlast]

I have tried the NiMH AA batteries in the cold and they don't do well at all below 24 degrees when working extended hours into the night and morning hours. Our Duracell, Tenergy or Titanium NiMH AA work down to about 28 degrees with reduced runtime. But when it gets colder then that we start have trouble with them. At 24 degree we get about 35 or 40 minute before they start going dim, and will stop working a few minute after that. If it's 15 degrees or colder, forget about it!

The new "low self-discharge" NiMH cells will work down to those temps. I discharged one at zero degrees and was unable to detect siginificant capacity loss. I don't have equipment to go any lower than my freezer

So I really don't know the bottom end of the cells, and have been unable to find manufacture specs about that either. Whatever it is, it's much better than classic NiMH.

 

[GCBStokes]

BackBlast,

The new "low self-discharge" NiMH cells will work down to those temps. I discharged one at zero degrees and was unable to detect siginificant capacity loss. I don't have equipment to go any lower than my freezer.

Are you talking about the Sony Batteries I hear people talking about/write about here on the candlepowerforums? I was told that the battiers we use would do well in the cold. At or a little below freezing they do fine, but at 24 degrees they work for a half hour or a bet more, then we get the low battery flash from our Apex Headlamps.

I have Duracell, Tenergy, and Titanium NiMH and other's that I work with have a few other brands and it seems that all start to have problems when it get to 24 degrees or lower. Do you know how cold you freezer gets? If I was sure, I might get a set to try.

The other thing is, I'm very impress with the both the Titanium 2700 NiMH and Tenergy 2600 NiMH AA's. I think the Titanium Batteries may have a slight edge, but it nothing to write home about as far as runtime goes. But, there is one difference I've noticed with the Titanium 2400 and 2600 mAh NiMH Batteries that make me like them over all others. My 2700 mAh Titaniums are still new, so I'm not sure about them yet, even though I'm sure they would be no worse then the other Titaniums. But with my 2400 mAh and 2600 mAh NiMH Titanium Batteries, they are well over a year old, and they have been recharged hundereds of times, and they still charge and hold their charge very well. In fact at this point, they are still out performing some other batteries that are newer and have not been charge as much! The only downside is extened use in cold 24 degrees or lower. But that's only a few month out of the year.

Maybe I'm better off sticking with them, and just using Lithiums when needed. So far, I'm having very good luck with the Nuon Lithium AA's from BatteryJunction.com at only $4.95 per 4 pack. Using my Apex Headlamp I get about 3 hours 35 minutes runtime on high. I get better runtime with the Energizer Lithium AA, just under 5 hours, but the Nuon Lithiums are about 1/2 the price of the Energizer. I still use Energizer Lithium Batteries for very long and cold nights at work, but I also have been using the Nuon Lithium Batteries for shorter nights out. And in any case, I always have 2 extra sets in those nice little plastic battery cases, just in case.

Let me know more about those batteries, and I'll check into them. Even is I get them to try next Winter Season.

Thank you for you feed back.

 

[BackBlast]

Not Sony, Sanyo.

My freezer runs at 0 deg F.

I'm talking about eneloops, enduro (Titanium brand), hybrid (Rayovac brand), etc... There are several threads on them in the battery area. They're typically around 2000 mah capacity.

 

[GCBStokes]

BackBlast,

The new "low self-discharge" NiMH cells will work down to those temps. I discharged one at zero degrees and was unable to detect siginificant capacity loss.
I'm talking about eneloops, enduro (Titanium brand), hybrid (Rayovac brand), etc... There are several threads on them in the battery area. They're typically around 2000 mah capacity.

When I had trouble with cold weather performance with my NiMH AA Batteries in my Apex Headlamps I was using Titanium 2400 and 2600 mAh NiMH Batteries. The 2400 mAh AA's I got over 2 years ago and the 2600 mAh AA were from when they first came out, I think about 2 years ago? And like I said, they did great until it got down to 24 degree F. or colder.

I was thinking of what you said in your message, referring to the New NiMH Batteries, saying they would work in the low temperatures that I work in during the Owl Breading Season. Then it dawned on me, my batteries may be an older technology/older version, or just to old. So, I call the people over at amondotech.com and talked with them. And the told me that the New Titanium Brand NiMH Batteries have now much better then when I got my 2400 and 2600 mAh AA's. And the new ones are low-discharge and will still hold 80% of their charge even after a year on a shelf! When I asked about the cold weather performance, they told me the new Titanium NiMH will give very good cold weather performance, just like you said. So, I ordered 12 of the new 2400 mAh AA's and 12 new 2600 mAh AA's (they come with a free case). I also got 12 of the new 1000 AAA's to try in my EOS. I already have of the 12 new 2700 mAh AA Titanium's, and they were charge about a week ago.

I had got some new 2700 mAh AA's a few weeks ago. I ran some runtime tests here at home, but did not use them in the field yet. So, I though I run a freezer test on them as I wait for my order. I had just recharge a set last week, so loaded up one of my Apex Headlamps and put it in my freezer Sunday morning. Then this morning I opened the freezer and turned my Apex on, putting it on the high 3 watt setting and put it beck into the freezer. Then 2 hours later I went to my freezer opened the door and my Apex was still on! I closed the door and left, then came back a half hour later and it was still running. I turn on my other Apex and compared the beams, the other Apex seem just slightly brighter, but it has lithium AA's in it, and the Apex always seem just a little bright when running lithium's. Then about 1 hour later the low batter flash came on. So, I got just about 3 1/2 hours of runtime with the Titanium 2700 mAh AA Batteries in my Apex Headlamp after it spent 24 hours in the freezer. And it ran for 2 1/2 hours in the freezer, then for another hour after taking it out of the freezer! :naughty:

So, you were absolutely right!!! You just saved me and my research a great deal of money. :rock:

PS.

I'm going to try a set of the Sanyo 1000 mAh AAA's to try in my EOS and a set of the new Sanyo 2700 mAh NiMH AA to try in my Apex as well.