Surefire's lack of interest in neutral, warm, and High CRI LED's

[EV_007]

First off I'd like to say that I'm a HUGE Surefire Fan. Just ask PK.

It would be nice to see SureFire offering a few High CRI versions of their lights, but understand the diminishing returns in output vs. efficiency and market demand.

The neutral headlamp is a step in the right direction.

Being able to differentiate friend from foe in the hiding in the brush with the aid of a High CRI weaponlight attached to a Carbine would save a lot of lives and bullets I bet.

 

[Illum]

...and many of us feel that the high CRI LED's can accomplish this with greater effectiveness than the cool white LED's surefire is using. Color rendition and depth perception is more important than sheer output, but the way these High CRI LED's are improving, we are getting to the place where we can have both.

well yes, this is true... but this would contridict the long believed approach of showing off output figures. Currently all better color renditioning LEDs looks to use much more layers of phosphorous than cool whites, which decreases the output. One would have to drive them harder to approach the same luminous output than cool white LEDs. Color rendition and depth perception IS more important than sheer output, but I don't think many would base on that criteria to buy a flashlight, especially if they have never cared what their old beater incandescents looked like when on.

 

[MichaelW]

The neutral headlamp is a step in the right direction.

What neutral headlamp?

The Surefire minimus vision is a warm-white regular (for warm-white) CRI LED.

 

[EV_007]

What neutral headlamp?

The Surefire minimus vision is a warm-white regular (for warm-white) CRI LED.

True, I meant non cool. Not sure if it is High CRI or not though.

 

[ebow86]

well yes, this is true... but this would contridict the long believed approach of showing off output figures. Currently all better color renditioning LEDs looks to use much more layers of phosphorous than cool whites, which decreases the output. One would have to drive them harder to approach the same luminous output than cool white LEDs. Color rendition and depth perception IS more important than sheer output, but I don't think many would base on that criteria to buy a flashlight, especially if they have never cared what their old beater incandescents looked like when on.

Can't say I agree. All surefire would have to do in this case is give a brief explanation and advertisement of what this high CRI LED is to customers, what it's advantages are, and market it towards a certain group of buyers, the outdoors type, and it would sell. Surefire has underrated their output ratings since the beginning, and their lights still sold, why would having a High CRI LED with a few less meaningless lumens matter? Fewer lumens didn't affect Surefire's ability to sell up to now, I seriously doubt a few less lumens on a spec sheet compaired to a cool white LED would have any effect.

 

[uknewbie]

If one doesn't care about the tint and the ability to render colors, then why care about the output, or throw, or runtime? The tint and ability to render colors is just as important of a attribute as anything else. Just because the general public isn't aware of the superiority of high CRI LED's doesn't mean we shouldn't demand it.

I do agree with you that you should ask for what you want from manufacturers. Obviously the tint is important to you and I can sympathise that being the case because your choices are more limited.

I just don't agree that most people think the same. I have a warm tinted Peak Eiger #8, flood and I love it. Nice pleasant looking colour, makes a change. BUT, I just don't think it matters that much, I would probably love it if it were cool white too.

Beam quality is my issue, I hate messy beams, rings, dark spots etc. Each to their own I guess.

 

[silentlurker]

I still don't know why you all need Surefire to validate your love of High CRI, NW LEDs since there are many companies that sell fine flashlights with them. Just go buy something else if the CRI is such a big concern.

And what if you all win? Maybe there'll be another $250 light I won't be able to afford

 

[Lord Bear]

I really like the Malkoff M61/M31 options. I really like Surefires. To me subjectively speaking, I prefer Malkoff's iteration of the LED "beam" over Surefire's. Let's even take the "brightness" factor out of it. I'm not convinced about warm beyond the subjective. Comparing the HDS hi CRI 100lumen clicky with a pocketclip...to Surefire's E1B...the F04 diffuser makes me EDC the E1B more. (Yes the diffuser also fits on the HDS but it's too loose. Tight on E1B. To me that's more important.)
I guess for me too many other factors get in the way of preferring warm over white (blue) when it's "carrying time".
I guess that subjectively, IMHO, it's not the warm spectrum thing, it's the beam. (Hotspot, spill, throw vs. flood.)
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lord Bear]

Brightness. The only thing I can gain from beamshots are brightness contrast. As soon as the results of shots taken are distorted in any way to illustrate "subjective", perceived values of the visual spectrum, (blue to red with yellow somewhere in between), the brightness contrast becomes moot. Different eyes are attracted to different things.
Warmer? Surefire? I bet brighter.

 

[Fusion_m8]

I reckon when the US Navy Seals, Army Rangers, USMC, CIA, US Marshalls, Men In Black, S.H.I.E.L.D etc...start asking Surefire for warm tinted LEDs, that's when Surefire will start to produce them, Surefire has no reason to listen to the general public for ideas and suggestions, we're not Surefire's target market.

 

[Craig K]

I reckon when the US Navy Seals, Army Rangers, USMC, CIA, US Marshalls, Men In Black, S.H.I.E.L.D etc...start asking Surefire for warm tinted LEDs, that's when Surefire will start to produce them, Surefire has no reason to listen to the general public for ideas and suggestions, we're not Surefire's target market.

I disagree a little bit with that because part of the Surefire market is the general public, I think if the general public including CPF members did not buy Surefire lights there sales would be way down, I think Surefire's market is not just Police and Army type people but also the general public.

I think the general public sales is very important to Surefire, more than what some of you may think.

 

[jh333233]

Another point is:
High CRI, 2600K @ 90+
Are too low in lumen efficiency

Not only surefire but most manufacturer, prefer white led(Mean CRI 80) rather than yellowish one(90+)

BTW, they are promoting a High CRI(defined as 90+) head lamp as seen in the catalog

 

[Swedpat]

Interesting thread, hope Surefire will read it. I think many agree with that the most important thing isn't only to have most lumens but to actually seeing details and separating colors. Neutral and warm tinted LEDs actually put out marginally lower lumen than cool LEDs. The percentual difference of brightness is what usually describes as hardly noticable without a side-by-side comparison. But the difference of color rendition out in the wilderness is significant. I think it in many cases more than weights up the slightly lower brightness.

 

[the.Mtn.Man]

Because, many of us, including myself, feel that the LED's that feature better color rendition is a tremendous advantage over the cooler, flat, dull, colorless LED's that are flooding the market right now. Being able to distinguish your surroundings as quickly as possible as well as see colors in their more natural state is an advantage to virtually everyone, soldiers, policemen, firemen, emt's, and the average Joe taking his dog for a walk.

Surefire's goal is to make the most effective illuminations tools possible for the task to be completed, and many of us feel that the high CRI LED's can accomplish this with greater effectiveness than the cool white LED's surefire is using. Color rendition and depth perception is more important than sheer output, but the way these High CRI LED's are improving, we are getting to the place where we can have both.

It seems there is a common misconception that Surefire only designs and caters to the military and government users, this is simply not the case. Although they are the great bulk of Surefire's sales etc, we civilians also play a large role in Surefire's product line, development and sales. Surefire is smart enough to know how many of us civilians are actually using their products, and different lines that they produce, like the outdoorsman series and saint headlamps, are proof of this.

If I was in combat or patrolling the streets in my squad car, and my life depended on identifying my target as quickly as possible, I would take a high CRI LED any day over a cool white LED that offers slightly more efficiency with 50 more meaningless lumens.

I think you're exaggerating things just a bit. Cool white is not nearly as useless as you're making it sound, especially some of the newer emitters which render colors very similarly to daylight.

 

[ebow86]

I reckon when the US Navy Seals, Army Rangers, USMC, CIA, US Marshalls, Men In Black, S.H.I.E.L.D etc...start asking Surefire for warm tinted LEDs, that's when Surefire will start to produce them, Surefire has no reason to listen to the general public for ideas and suggestions, we're not Surefire's target market.

You see this is what I disagree with, no doubt that the government is the great majority of sales within Surefire, but I believe that us civilians also play a large role. As I pointed out earlier, there are several different products Surefire markets towards us civilians.

I think you're exaggerating things just a bit. Cool white is not nearly as useless as you're making it sound, especially some of the newer emitters which render colors very similarly to daylight.

Well, cool white LED's are most certainly not useless, didn't mean for it to come across that way, but in my own experience, as well as others, higher CRI LED's do a much better job at rendering things and helping to accomplish the task at hand with greater efficiency. However, I have come across some cooler white LED's that are near the level I would consider near useless. It's when the tints start getting heavily green or blue in color, that's when it most certainly makes an impact on that flashlights ability to render things.

If High CRI emitters are better at rendering objects, which would make it undoubtedly a more useful tool, and if they are only slightly behind their cooler white counterparts in terms of output or efficiency, then I see no reason whatsoever not to suggest Surefire at the very least consider using them.

 

[MichaelW]

The 85/90 min CRI emitters are too far behind in efficiency, and they are only the mid-range of warm-white for Surefire to make a single jump change in 'strategic direction'.
Ideally I would like a 3 flavor strategy: 90 CRI min @ 3000K CCT, 80 CRI min @ 4000K, 70 CRI min @ 5000K
{The xm-l can be had in T6 bin @ 5000K, T5@4000, T4@3000; but no high CRI as of yet}

Everyone has seen this, right?
http://lux-rc.com/view.php?p=content/blogs/beamshots&_sx=0&_sy=909
The xp-e doesn't seem to provide much more light when overdriven (limited cooling potential?)
The high CRI doesn't seem all that different from just plain old warm-white

 

[Size15's]

Interesting thread, hope Surefire will read it.

Each Friday they all gather in the conference room to review the weekly CPF threads of interest report.

 

[Fusion_m8]

You tell em Size15! You make them wake up and realise what's for the greater good when you meet with them on fridays!!! You go bro!!!:thumbsup:

Each Friday they all gather in the conference room to review the weekly CPF threads of interest report.

 

[hazna]

I do appreciate the benefits of neutral and warm white. That doesn't stop me from buying cool white flashlights, and appreciate the benefits of these LEDs.

I do question some of the statements made in this thread about the benefits of adopting warmer tints
-'having a warmer tint will make it quicker to identify targets'. I'm not a LEO, but can any LEO confirm it actually takes them longer to identify a target using a cool white LED. Does it matter that their red shirt, looks less 'red'? I am dubious...
-'making headlamps with warm tints for medics'. I believe most health professionals would tend to use specialised headlamps marketed at the medical industry. Using something like a zebralight or surefire headlamp, would be a secondary choice.

Yes warmer tints can be easier on the eyes and can make it easier to distinguish certain colours, but these are differences can be more subtle, that the general population may not automatically pick up. To be honest most the general population would also be less picky about the beam quality, when compared to flashaholics. I doubt they notice the doughnut holes and artefacts that are such a huge issues for us.

It has been mentioned multiple times by manufacturers that neutral and warm tints, just do not sell as well.

 

[bulbman]

One thing I think is relevant, not just for Surefire, is that manufacturers don't always tell you the
CCT and/or CRI.
I know that it can be somewhat random with cool white, but if they pay more for neutral or warm white, why don't they tell you?
There's too much room for variation to just say "neutral" or "warm" white.
Am I supposed to buy a $50+ light, not knowing?
That's too expensive to take a chance.