The Haiku: why I personally feel the 3S lights have surpassed the PD lights

[js]

Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

js, I certainly understand that you may have wished to help Don by pouring some cold water on the unrealistic "clamor" to return to the PD format.

The fact that these requests have continued for so long shows the strength of feeling that is still around.

. . .

easilyled,

Actually, to the extent that my post did aim to help Don out, it was, as kaichu dento points out, much more about the tale of a personal journey from the PD to the 3S and why and how it happened. Not to "pour cold water" on the clamor and enthusiasm for the PD lights! Not at all! In fact, it should be obvious that I myself am one of the people wishing for future waves of PD lights. As I said, it would be great if Don could do BOTH--offer standing waves of the 3S lights, as well as a few probably very short-lived waves of PD lights.

What I did want to pour cold water on was this notion that Don isn't offering the PD lights anymore simply because he can't get his hands on the parts required. This notion is "in the air" around here, it seems to me, and it contributes to a possible feeling that the 3S lights are somehow a kind of compromise and are being offered because the PD lights can't be made anymore due to Wayne and Don parting ways, and not because their creator feels they are better lights, on the whole.

The 3S lights are in no way a compromise or a Don's-hand-was-forced solution! If I found that I was won over to them, there is no telling who might also be won over if given a chance to experience these excellent lights. I wanted to present my personal journey, my reasons, my thoughts, the pros and cons, and so on, so that others might give these remarkable lights a try.

That's all. No cold water here. Just nice hot water representative of my enthuasiasm for McGizmo lights in general, and for the Haiku in particular!

 

[easilyled]

Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

easilyled,

Actually, to the extent that my post did aim to help Don out, it was, as kaichu dento points out, much more about the tale of a personal journey from the PD to the 3S and why and how it happened. Not to "pour cold water" on the clamor and enthusiasm for the PD lights!

js, I was responding to this point that you made "Since so many people seemed to still be wondering IF Don would ever do more PD lights, and WHY he wouldn't, if he wouldn't (and specualtion of the same), the title was also a signal and signpost to others wondering and speculating and wishing for the PD to return."


It implied to me that you were signalling that the PD system was unlikely to return and that anyone wondering or speculating whether it would, was wasting their time.

I would have agreed with you in this regard, since Don has re-iterated on numerous occasions that he couldn't see a reason to go back to the PD system and has made this abundantly clear.

I also understand your personal journey with the Haiku and the joy it brought you.

This is the magical thing with McGizmo lights. So many of us experienced this exact same feeling when the PD lights came out and there were many quite extraordinary eulogies about them with good reason.

What I did want to pour cold water on was this notion that Don isn't offering the PD lights anymore simply because he can't get his hands on the parts required. This notion is "in the air" around here, it seems to me, and it contributes to a possible feeling that the 3S lights are somehow a kind of compromise and are being offered because the PD lights can't be made anymore due to Wayne and Don parting ways, and not because their creator feels they are better lights, on the whole. The 3S lights are in no way a compromise or a Don's-hand-was-forced solution!

Yes, you definitely cleared up any misconceptions that I (or anybody else) might have had about the sequence of events that led Don down the path to producing the 3S series.

If I found that I was won over to them, there is no telling who might also be won over if given a chance to experience these excellent lights. I wanted to present my personal journey, my reasons, my thoughts, the pros and cons, and so on, so that others might give these remarkable lights a try.
That's all. No cold water here. Just nice hot water representative of my enthuasiasm for McGizmo lights in general, and for the Haiku in particular!

I certainly understand that you intended this as a personal tribute to the 3S lights.

The only thing that I had a problem with is that you seemed to be very determined to steamroller anyone reading this thread with why 3S lights are better than PD lights.

I believe that many of us do not share this view and your own list of pros and cons for each series seems far from conclusive in revealing a "winner".

I accept that Don is leaning towards the 3S series in his personal preference and this is why he went down this road, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, its ultimately the users that should be the judges for the sake of posterity.

I really don't understand why its necessary to so categorically state that one series is better than another and I think that is a slippery road to go down, because what constitutes a "better" light means so many different things to so many different people.

 

[js]

Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

. . .

I accept that Don is leaning towards the 3S series in his personal preference and this is why he went down this road, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam, its ultimately the users that should be the judges for the sake of posterity.

I really don't understand why its necessary to so categorically state that one series is better than another and I think that is a slippery road to go down, because what constitutes a "better" light means so many different things to so many different people.

You are right, easilyled. I have modified both the title, and the language of the OP to switch from cateogorical language to the language of personal preference.

See how you like it and report back. I also took out my strongly perjorative comments about the Kroll switch, as the failures of my three Kroll-enabled mini-mags here at work may be far from representative of the sample population as a whole, and also because the main reason I didn't like the Kroll on the Arc was the feel of it. I also made a number of other small changes, FWIW.

 

[easilyled]

Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

Thanks for making that concession to me js.

This is an extremely compelling and well-thought out thread and I don't mean to detract from it.

 

[js]

Re: The Haiku: The Haiku: why I personally feel the 3S lights have surpassed the PD

easilyled,

You haven't detracted from this thread at all. On the contrary! I meant it when I said you were right about the language--how I was categorically stating what was really a preference. So I personally feel that this thread, and especially the OP, are much better thanks to your involvement. So, far from my changes being a concession to you, I see them rather as an improvement for all.

And I'm sorry it took me so long to recognizing that I should have been more careful to put things in terms of personal preference. Ah well. It's easy to start saying things categorically and hyperbolically when you're really excited and passionate about something! I think most of us here can understand that in relation to a McGizmo of whatever type or flavor, and thus I hope I can be forgiven for my excesses in the first version of the OP.

Anyway, thanks again, easilyled!

 

[arewethereyetdad]

Re: The Haiku: The Haiku: why I personally feel the 3S lights have surpassed the PD

While you two are gleefully giving each other foot massages, I would like to categorically state that I prefer the PD series, FWIW. :nana: But it IS an enjoyable read!

 

[scout24]

Re: The Haiku: The Haiku: why I personally feel the 3S lights have surpassed the PD

Great reading from those who feel so passionate about some of the best lighting tools made, regardless of preference. Only here can such spirited conversation take place so politely. Much respect to you both, js and easilyled.

 

[nbp]

Can't help but feel I need a PD light now so I can truly decide whether I like the 3S, the Twisty, or the PD UI the best. Who of you wants to sell an LS20 on the cheap?!

I have a feeling I would still pefer the 3S UI, but those 20s are just so pretty. Guts aside, that may be the loveliest light Don has ever made.

 

[fyrstormer]

What is this? Are we not men? Must we talk at length about our feelings? :sick2:

Seriously though, this thread was supposed to be about the relative merits of the PD vs. 3S systems, and an explanation of why the merits of the 3S system make it the system that will continue being produced, while the PD system fades into history, and somehow it turned into an apology-party.

People will always have their preferences, but progress tends to seek the best bang/buck ratio at each moment in time. It doesn't mean anyone's preferences are invalid, it just means they are human and they don't always care about the most mathematically-optimized solution. Case in point: baroque architecture.

:duh2:

 

[nbp]

Welcome fyrstormer! You must be new here in this subforum. You'll find us to be a passionate bunch, prone to extended dissertations about the lovely McGizmo line of flashlights, even waxing poetic at times, perhaps taking a moment to write a Haiku.

Your objective and scientific viewpoints will be a refreshing diversion for us sissy-men, no doubt.

 

[fyrstormer]

Sup dawg. I heard you like haikus, so I made a haiku from Haikus so you can etc...

 

[nbp]

Sup dawg. I heard you like haikus, so I made a haiku from Haikus so you can etc...

Sweeeet. :thumbsup:

What are we looking at there as far as guts?

 

[fyrstormer]

4.2V Haiku XR-E
8.4V Haiku XP-G
4.2V Haiku SSC-P4 Hi-CRI

I've since sold the 8.4V Haiku XP-G.

 

[1313]

Can the 3S driver be upgraded like the one in the pd can for a power boost?

 

[fyrstormer]

In theory yes, but it's probably easier to build a whole new modular light engine.

 

[js]

I'm not going to apologize for apologizing, nor for being nice, nor for correcting what I saw as a clear error in my language. If you don't like it, then screw you and the horse you rode in on. :devil:

Back to PD vs. 3S, I have to say that the longer I use the 3S, the less interest I have in my LS20. I'm being converted!!! What a thing! But really . . . it's just . . . strange. I just really do find the 3S to be so much more convenient to use. In the first couple weeks, I would occasionally switch back to my LS20 and after 5 or 10 minutes I would get back into it, and be like "yeah, yeah, it's really nice." And I EDC'd it several times between when I got the Haiku and now. But then, after more time, and after using the Haiku more and more, I just realized that short of losing my Haiku and needing a "backup" McGizmo, the LunaSol just wasn't going to see any use. I didn't like the thought of it sitting in a drawer, so, despite the advice I gave myself and others above, I decided to sell my LunaSol.

I also realized something about the Haiku, and it clicked with something that Don mentioned to me--something about deep reflectors and managing the beam via the angle of incidence (???) I think that was it. Pipe up here Don if you know what I'm talking about. But the point is that while there IS a definite "hot spot" in the High CRI Haiku beam, there is also this lovely spill zone which has, relatively speaking, more spill and a more even spill, especially up close, than other lights I've owned (like the Ti-PD-S), especially incans focused for throw (like the M6). So THIS is another reason why I find I don't need the low flood beam--because the low beam of the High CRI Haiku has a great flood zone, so it isn't just a small spot of light.

And, AHHHHHHH, what a beam! What a quality of light! I just LOVE this Nichia 119 (and, of course, the 083). I've been waiting for LED's like these for almost a decade. And, here they ARE! It's very exciting! I . . . am . . . LOVING it!

 

[Darien]

Re: The Haiku: why the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights!

Hi guys,
For starters, _JS_, thanks for your time and thoughts in this thread.

As suggested/ requested I am making this thread a sticky so feel free to link to other related threads.

I would like to add some comments and thoughts regarding the 3S McClickie series VS the PD lights with a bit of historical and design background if I can get to it and include it.

My very first light from scratch was a flood light based roughly on the ARC LS but with three differences all significant to my wishes; flood, pocket clip and clickie switch. My first production light design which was a collaboration in production with other CPF members, the Skunk Lights Gang, was the McLux and it was a revision of the earlier light but in compliance with the geometry as established by the SureFire "E" series. There is a lot to be said for modularity and the ability to assemble various components as best suits the individual. I spent a lot of time modifying SF lights and became familiar with their geometry. The McLux used a Kroll clickie switch which although far from perfect was at least readily available and for the most part viable. I gave PK so much grief about including a clickie switch in the SF E series offering that he took to calling me McClickie which ultimately became a source of some irony to me.

After playing more with SF mods as well as a fair amount of time playing with the Pelican M6 platform the desire for a 2 stage E series tailcap became my focus and as a result I came up with what I think was one of my best design solutions to date, the McE2S switch. (As an aside I had given up on a clickie module for the E-series tail caps after looking into the tooling costs). Also in the works at the time of the McE2S was the Aleph series of lights which really leveraged the open platform of E series compatibility and I was certainly not alone in the CPF community in designing and building modules and components and championing this modular group.

At some point along the way I was informed that my McE2S was likely an infringement on the SF 2 stage tail cap and I heeded this information by attempting to come up with some other means of similar 2 stage UI but completely different in mechanics and removed from the tail cap (I felt my McE2S was significantly different in design to the SF 2 level tail cap but it was a 2 level tail cap and the idea of using a resistor to give the two stages was certainly also a credit to SF). As a result of this new design goal, the PD was born. There was good news/ bad news in regards to the PD and it was the same news; the PD was not E-series compatible. I won't get into the good news part beyond recognizing some merit inherent in being original for its own sake.

Before going any further I want and need to give Wayne Yamaguchi credit and express my appreciation for his involvement and expertise in these developments. If it weren't for his brilliance and willingness to put up with me and come up with the magic in electronics, the earlier lights and certainly the PD series would never have happened.

Back to the PD series.... At the time the LED's were delivering enough flux to easily justify two levels of output and looking to the future it seemed that in time three levels would be justified. Also to be considered was not just the amount of light being delivered but its distribution as well. I remember thinking a good use of a two speed light might be a low and wide beam coupled with a high and long beam and the LunaSol version of the PD came to be. (I should also at least mention that during this time I had made the transition from aluminum to titanium but that is another story in itself)

I remember thinking that 100 lumens was the magic number which when reached, a serious effort should be given to a three level light. I want to mention that my reflector design had also evolved along the way where I felt I was getting better at a beam distribution that was a fair compromise between flood and throw and viable at both low and higher levels of flux. It was becoming time for a three speed light and based on a lot of bench testing and prototyping, time for a new UI. When the realization that a clickie switch would be a component in this new design I immediately opted to come back into the fold of the "E" series platform even though I was aware of some inherent shortcomings inherent in the design. Perhaps shortcoming is too strong a term, let me change that to compromise.

The subject line states that the 3S McClickie lights have surpassed the PD lights and although this is a subjective statement, it is one I am mostly in agreement with and certainly the reality is that I have moved away from the PD and into the 3S UI with my offerings reflecting this move.

I offer this history not because anyone will find it of interest to speak of but as reason and hopefully justification as to where I am with my offerings and how this came to be. It is much easier to look back than it is to actually go back and realistically since I am only one person I can't go back if I want to be going forward, at the same time. Some of you might think that I am resting on my previous designs and not moving forward and I can't deny there is truth here but I am not interested in bringing about change simply for the sake of change. My business plan and core values do not lend to a flashlight of the month club. If I offer something new or different it has to have value and merit in its own right.

I want to throw in one last side thought/ observation here. H3 vials. I really like the H3 vial in the piston tail of the PD lights but I have also come to realize that they will ultimately fade long before their titanium host fails to serve. Granted I will be long gone before this and it is possible to replace them but not easily or doable by many who have one of these lights. The seals, clickie switch and even the Light Engine itself might be viewed in some time line as normal wear or replaceable items and with the present 3S series of lights these components can be reasonably replaced by the user. I find myself thinking a lot these days about durability and sustainability and that influences my designs and ideas. In a final contrast to the PD, the Lunasol was the latest iteration of the PD and candidly it was the most challenging design as well as assembly I came up with and a PITA to put together. The host of the PD light will outlive its internals and replacement of these internals is not trivial. I feel bad about that. Maybe I shouldn't but it does influence my thoughts and directions in going forward.

Man, I haven't taken a dump on the forum like this in a long time! :duck: :nana:

The whole final paragraph but most importantly for me is the last three sentences; rare these days, and what I like to hear from a design standpoint and why I now need to own and carry a McGizmo flashlight. Thanks, Don! :thumbsup: I should have been keeping up long ago. Can't wait to carry her. Bring it on!

 

[nbp]

Let it ride, Don.

Who knew he had a youtube channel? More flashlight movies please!

 

[127.0.0.1]

thanks for sorting all this out for me so I don't have to

Just ordered a Haiku and that is that.

 

[nbp]

Allow me to mount my high horse for a moment.

I just scrolled through the flashlight reviews section and I was amazed to find that of the first 90 threads or so, I only knew anything about like 5 of the lights mentioned, and I didn't own any of them. Bronte, Skilhunt, Rofis, Xstar, Niwalker? Seriously? Where the heck do all these goofy lights come from? Who buys them all?

And while the reviews are very well done and professional and contain lots of data, none are as passionate and connected as something like this fine review from js. All those silly lights lack everything that makes something like a McGizmo so special. I am happy to have found an EDC light that is so right for me. Saves me so much time reading about hokey mass produced disposable lights and money wasted on them.

Rock on Don, keep making sweet lights that make other lights inconsequential and rock on my Haiku carrying brothers and sisters. :rock: :rock: