Thermal management optimization.

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Barbarin

Flashlight Enthusiast
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Jul 30, 2001
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Pamplona- NA- Spain
This is part of a post I have written on another thread, but I think you could find it interesting, and I will find to share your ideas.

"Thermal management:

I have been always very concerned about the thermal management of the heat generated by the diodes as it can result on output loose if not designed properly. Most of the people won't use a flashlight more than 30 hours, and at that point won't be noticeable, but from just 100 hours you can detect even a 30% lumen if heat is not managed properly. The cooler the diode runs, the better, and the initial moment, when you switch it on is a critical moment on thermal stress. Heat is generated instantaneously on the die so you have to take it out as soon as possible.
That is why I have designed a intercooler sandwich based on a thick pure copper disc, as copper is near double than pure aluminium, and double than alloys:

Ag (silver) 420 W/(m K)
Cu 400 W/(m K)
Al 240 W/(m K)
(Al, Si, Mg) Alloys 200 W/(m K) average.

Of course a very important point is the joint between that copper disc and the diodes, but even using the best thermal epoxi (arctic) the conductivity of this compounds is 30 times worse than copper itself, arround 8 W/(m K), so we need to get this epoxi layer as thin as possible. In my case I have designed a simple tool wich press the diode against the disc with no less than 15Kg/cm2 during the curing process to make that heat barrier as thin as possible.

Once the heat is on the copper disc it needs to be redirected to the flashlight body itself which in my opinion should be always made of aluminum alloys on diode based flashlights as thermal conductivity of other materials is quite poor when compared:

Steel 45 W/(m K)
Brass 85 W/(m K)
Titanium 22 W/(m K)

To get that trasnference as good as possible teh best way to do it to have the larger area, polished, with a interface material (micronized copper grease in my case) and to press it firmly to minimize the heat barrier.

So once we have that heat on the head of the flashlight a good design to get it redirected to the hole body, and finally to surrounding air or water, is the key the have our porr diodes running as cool as possible. In my case I have done a large threaded area between head and flashlight body, with no o-rings at all, but thin compound, and thsi area is 125cm2.

As a result the hole flashlight becomes warm quickly, and the temperature of the tailcap is similar to the head"

Javier Lopez
 
Re: Thermal managemet optimization.

I agree that thermal consideratins are very important at the design level and assembly level. They are also very significant at the user level! Some designs are not intended for constant on operation. To use these lights in long runs is not friendly to the LED to be sure!

On comment you didn't hit on is that one sure way of dealing with thermal output is to minimize its creation in the first place! Efficient drivers and moderate drive levels are significant at the design stage, IMHO.
 
Re: Thermal managemet optimization.

[ QUOTE ]
McGizmo said:
I agree that thermal consideratins are very important at the design level and assembly level. They are also very significant at the user level! Some designs are not intended for constant on operation. To use these lights in long runs is not friendly to the LED to be sure!

On comment you didn't hit on is that one sure way of dealing with thermal output is to minimize its creation in the first place! Efficient drivers and moderate drive levels are significant at the design stage, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right 100%. Better optics, clear lenses, efficient driving and improved thermal management are more noticeable than a 20% overdriving. I'm sure a Lux III driven at 900mAh with a good optic and lens is brighter than same diode with a NX05 at 1200 mAh, consuming less battery and generating less heat.
 
Re: Thermal managemet optimization.

How thick are your copper discs?

I've heard that a rule of thumb is to have a heatsink
thickness equal to the width of the contact area so
that the spreading resistance of the heat sink isn't
the limiting factor.

Greg
 
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Re: Thermal managememt optimization.

They are 46mm diameter, 2mm thick.
On this case that rule is not exact as long as the disc is in contact with the flashlight body, laying on a wall 2 mm thick too. It's purpose is to take away heat as soon as possible to minimize thermal stress during firts moments. Once the body temperature is stabilized it does not mind if it is copper or alloy, then is more important the form factor and the capability to transmit heat to surrounding air or water.
 
Re: Thermal managememt optimization.

Interesting. If you have a temperature probe it would
be interesting to compare the temp at the center of
the disk (on the back behind the LED) versus right at
the outside edge. A significant temperature difference would
indicate a high spreading resistance which would be
improved by using a thicker disk.

I'm not sure I understand your statement "It's purpose is
to take away heat as soon as possible to minimize thermal
stress during first moments." It will be a benefit for
any length of run time (after the 20ms time constant of
the Luxeon).

Here's the best article I managed to find on heatsink
spreading resistance (in a few minutes of searching):
web page. It even has a calculator.

Using the default number for the top parameter in the
calculator and your numbers of 400 for copper, 2 mm thick
and 46 mm diameter (and a guess of 5mm for the heat
source diameter), the optimum thickness comes out at
about 7.5 mm thick. Now this is for a finned heatsink
so after a while making the base thicker just reduces the
heat that can get to the fins.

For your case thicker will be better since it allows
more copper for the heat to pass through to get to the
flashlight walls. Once the thickness gets to be close to
or larger than the radius of the disk increasing the
thickness won't be of much help since the path to the
bottom outside edge of the disk is much further away
from the heatsource than the top outside edge.

Interesting discussion. I don't disagree with your approach.
But I do think thicker (up to 10 or 15 mm) would still
make a significant improvement.

Cheers - Greg
 
Re: Thermal managememt optimization.

Or you can evolve on to heatpipes, instead of using the technologies of the 1900's, and go with thermal transfer's which can easily reach 2,000 times better than even copper..... Yes, I know heatpipes became reality back in 1945, and saw wide adoption and use in the 1970's when they figured out how to make them highly reliable.
 
Greg,

Of course the thicker is the better, but besides thermal considerations I can't forget that I'm designing a hand held light. 7,5 mm thick copper would increase too much the weight of the unit.
I like to imagine the paths as roads, and heat (excited atoms) as cars. We have a number of cars, if we don't want them too cloose one to each other we need a lot of road (mass of flashlight), better highway (copper or alloy) and ways as wide as possible. As long as I'm designing a flashlight I can not create the perfect intercooling desing, but I try to make that "roads" as fast as possible, always under main consideration which is in fact a hand held flashlight.

Take a look at this picture

DSCF0031_001.sized.jpg


What we can see is a overdimensionated threading on the body part next to the head. The purpose of this is the larger contact area to get heat transfered to body quickly to avoid "hot points". That threaded wall is 2mm thick, and if you add 2mm of the the body we have 4mm wide and enormous lenght (almost to tailcap). It happens that diodes are just over this cooling circle.

I have tried to make the best "cooling" flashlight, but first of all is a flashlight, not a cooling device. so some guidelines are fixed by other considerations other than thermal management.

Please don't be offended when I use this kind of language for kids when describing things, beacuse I try to write thsi for everypeople and modder... and pleae excuse my poor english when I translate my technical thoughts to english.
 
Re: Thermal managememt optimization.

[ QUOTE ]
NewBie said:
Or you can evolve on to heatpipes, instead of using the technologies of the 1900's, and go with thermal transfer's which can easily reach 2,000 times better than even copper..... Yes, I know heatpipes became reality back in 1945, and saw wide adoption and use in the 1970's when they figured out how to make them highly reliable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heat pipes are a very interesting concept to add on a flashlight, but if I want to make flashlights and to keep them under the 1000 bucks barrier.... Of course there is a possibility of adding this interesting feature without costing a leg or an arm per unit, but it is not for me by now, as I'm making a few hundreds flashlight series, and it would mean at less a few thousands.

I still like that idea, and I'm sure it could find its place on a overpowered or multiLED compact lighting device, but not on a "conventional" flashlight. I think it would allow 2 Amps or higher on a LUXIII with propper design.
 
[ QUOTE ]
barbarin said:
Greg,

I have tried to make the best "cooling" flashlight, but first of all is a flashlight, not a cooling device. so some guidelines are fixed by other considerations other than thermal management.

Please don't be offended when I use this kind of language for kids when describing things, beacuse I try to write thsi for everypeople and modder... and pleae excuse my poor english when I translate my technical thoughts to english.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand.

That looks like a very nice light you have
created.

Greg
 
just revisited this excellent thread on thermal management and Barbolight U-09.

Got an U-09 en route, looking forward to results. Going to be interesting! should produce 200+ lumens if thermo management stays under control.
 
Re: Thermal managememt optimization.

barbarin said:
NewBie said:
Or you can evolve on to heatpipes, instead of using the technologies of the 1900's, and go with thermal transfer's which can easily reach 2,000 times better than even copper..... Yes, I know heatpipes became reality back in 1945, and saw wide adoption and use in the 1970's when they figured out how to make them highly reliable.
barbarin said:
Heat pipes are a very interesting concept to add on a flashlight, but if I want to make flashlights and to keep them under the 1000 bucks barrier.... Of course there is a possibility of adding this interesting feature without costing a leg or an arm per unit, but it is not for me by now, as I'm making a few hundreds flashlight series, and it would mean at less a few thousands.

I still like that idea, and I'm sure it could find its place on a overpowered or multiLED compact lighting device, but not on a "conventional" flashlight. I think it would allow 2 Amps or higher on a LUXIII with propper design.

Actually, you can get the heatpipes in the 2-3 dollar range.
 
Last edited:
I'm afraid the "re-index" does not seem to work. A search for "heat pipes" had no matches.

You might be able to do it by listing all the keywords. Let's see if "heat pipes" matches now?

- --

EDIT:


Yes, it matches. This leads me to believe the new posts will be indexed, but the old ones are not. SHEESH! What a bummer.

I suggest that as we bump posts to the top we list all the keywords that make the thread valuable.

I gotta do that to the 'silly newbie tricks' thread? Groan.

Daniel
 
Last edited:
Good point... I mistakenly assumed it was smart enough. :sigh:

heat
thermal management
copper
aluminum
silver
heat pipes
conductivity
transfer

:touche:
 
Thanks for digging it out!

There are some older posts I made about heatpipes that go into more detail and depth, but alas, they are lost in the halls of the CPF vault.
 
Barbarin said:
"Thermal management:

I have been always very concerned about the thermal management of the heat generated by the diodes as it can result in output loss if not designed properly.... The cooler the diode runs, the better, and the initial moment, when you switch it on is a critical moment on thermal stress. Heat is generated instantaneously on the die so you have to take it out as soon as possible.

If you want to reduce the thermal shock associated with starting up the LEDs, how about if you ramp up the power gradually, rather than going directly from zero to full on?
 

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