This is pretty messed up...

KevinL

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That's pretty messed up. Duct tape - silence the kid, then abduct him and head off to whatever nightmares he has planned.

I can't comment on the firearm aspect but give the kid a high powered light at least.. make it some ridiculously overpowered incan. About being whacked with your own light - a 12yo vs an adult probably wouldn't have much of a chance anyway, with or without a light, so it comes to the same thing in the end. But at least the ultra bright beam combined with a hell of a lot of screaming will scare off the attacker. (based on the screaming alone seems to already have worked)

A small Mag refitted with something really bright would work, unless you want to spare a Surefire for the job.
 

CLHC

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Now that sure is a very frightening situation. Here in the Bay Area (Los Altos Hills), they had a break in where the residents were duct taped. The intruder, called the police to inform them that he will not be breaking into that home again for sure. He did it just to see how the police work and what kind of media attention it'll get. Very sick joke I say.
 

TedTheLed

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since it was the sound of screams that saved the day, why not invest in other loud noise-making devices, easily trippable by hands or feet or what have you, in various strategic spots around the house?

I'm thinking of a kick panel a person could use, located by the doors.

also video is fairly cheap these days -- you could have a loop going for just an hour or two, unless you'll be gone for longer periods, and get a picture.
 

vtunderground

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KevinL said:
I can't comment on the firearm aspect but give the kid a high powered light at least.. make it some ridiculously overpowered incan.

That's not a bad idea, at the very least having a super-bright light at hand might make the kids feel safer. I'll talk to their dad on tuesday, I may be donating some lights to the family.
 

Lightraven

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Once somebody is already in the house, they can a do a lot of damage. Most of the effort here should be into keeping intruders out.

In the case of Richard Ramirez, the Los Angeles "Night Stalker", some victims woke up to him hitting them with a hammer. The men were usually murdered in their beds. The women were killed later.

Last night at work, I drove down "Danielle Van Damme Memorial Freeway" named for the El Cajon little girl was abducted, raped and murdered by David Westerfield, who is now on death row.

As for the gun stuff:

In one hostage barricade case I read about, a SWAT team member on the perimeter fired a load of buck at the hostage taker when the team stormed in. One of the pellets killed a hostage who was running to escape.

A few weeks ago, I spent 8 days of firearms training that included learning how to make a hostage rescue shot with a handgun. We received a lecture from a celebrated cop who has done it himself at 14 feet 7 inches with a semi auto pistol--a single head shot. He then observed our hostage rescue training.

One of my coworkers recently put three handgun rounds into the head, neck and chest of a moving bad guy who was inches from a bunch of no-shoots. Half the time I face a threat, he (or she) has no-shoots around him or her.

I am no expert on home invasions, so my opinion is only that.

The Box o' Truth is a retired cop. He seems to know what he's talking about. Here's what he has to say:

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.
 

KC2IXE

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Lightraven said:
...snip...

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

There are a LOT of folks who will tell you 00 is too much - (I think it would be) - I'm thinking more along the lines of 0 buck, or maybe even #1. In WINTER 0 or 00 - depends on what folks are going to be wearing. Heck - I know folks who say that 2x4 duplex loads would probably be perfect
 

revolvergeek

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vtunderground said:
I found this website to be interesting:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Good job! I was going to post that myself. There are lots of interesting drywall shooting tests on there.

I love .357 mag revolvers (I own more of them than any other caliber of gun), but the blast and flash can really mess you up in a low light indoor shooting situation if you are not VERY carefull about ammunition selection.

This may sound odd, but I like a Ruger 10/22 with a 25rnd Butler Creek mag full of Stingers for a house gun when you are really worried about overpenetration. It is really fast, light, low recoil / blast and ANYBODY with a little practice can get of a couple of headshots off really really quick. If I lived in an apartment I would have a 10/22 with a weapon light of some sort and either Wiliams Fire Sights, some sort of custom Express sights or a sturdy red dot scope. Practice drills at the range of snap shooting 3 or 4 shots in a hurry at about 10/15 feet.

As it is, I normally sleep with a Glock 19 with tac light and an Ithica 12 ga with low recoil 00 buck next to my bed.
 

Lightraven

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Vtunderground,

As far as Surefire shotgun integrated weaponlights, that is what we have on our highly modified Remington 870 pump action shotguns. They seem to work fine, especially given the abuse they no doubt endure. I haven't heard any complaints about them.
 

TedTheLed

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http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm
*
What are the statistics about kids and firearm deaths and injuries?
The 2002 edition of Injury Facts from the National Safety Council reports the following statistics [ 1 ] :

* In 1999, 3,385 kids ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
* This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
* The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
* 214 unintentional
* 1,078 suicides
* 1,990 homicides
* 83 for which the intent could not be determined
* 20 due to legal intervention

* Of the total firearms-related deaths:
* 73 were of children under five years old
* 416 were children 5-14 years old
* 2,896 were 15-19 years old




In addition to firearm deaths, we need to look at how many children and young people are hurt by guns. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that in 1997, 2,514 children aged 0-14 were non-fatally injured by guns. In the same year, 30,225 young people aged 15-24 sustained nonfatal firearm injuries. These statistics include suicide attempts and both intentional and accidental shootings [2].

According to the CDC, the rate of firearm deaths among children under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. American children are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die in a firearm accident than children in these other countries [3] .

What do we know about kids and gun accidents and suicides?
When researchers studied the 30,000 accidental gun deaths of Americans of all ages that occurred between 1979-1997, they found that preschoolers aged 0-4 were 17 times more likely to die from a gun accident in the 4 states with the most guns versus the 4 states with the least guns. Likewise, school kids aged 5-14 were over 13 times more at risk of accidental firearm death in the states with high gun ownership rates. The findings indicate that gun availability is associated with accidental death by shooting [4].

Most guns involved in self-inflicted and unintentional firearm injuries (that is, in suicides and accidents) came either from the victim's home or the home of a friend or relative [5] .

Where and how safely do families with kids store their guns?
More than a third (35%) of homes with children—that's 22 million children ages 18 and under in more than 11 million homes—had at least one firearm, found researchers in a RAND-UCLA study [6]. But only 39% of these families keep their firearms locked, unloaded, and separate from ammunition as recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics. 43% of these U.S. homes with children and guns reported keeping one or more firearms in an unlocked place and without a trigger lock. Nine percent keep their guns loaded as well as unlocked. This analysis is based on data from 1994 interviews conducted in tens of thousands of households by the National Center for Health Statistics. (See Guns in the Family: Firearm Storage Patterns in U.S. Homes with Children for a fuller report.)

So, what does this mean to me?
If you have kids in your house, and you keep firearms, keep the guns locked and unloaded , with the ammunition locked in a separate location.

Before your child goes to a friend's house, you should ask the friend's parent whether the family has firearms in the house, and how they are stored. This can be part of all the usual things you would discuss before a visit, like allergies, snacks, sunscreen, etc.

For more information on asking these kinds of questions, visit the Asking Saves Kids (ASK) website sponsored by the non-political PAX organization in cooperation with the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Are my children at risk if I own a gun?
This is a controversial subject. Many people feel safer when they have a gun at hand. However, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)* has reviewed the current medical research on the subject and concluded that if you have children, it is safer not to have a gun in your home (see the AAP policy statement for more details)
 

Lightmeup

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Pediatricians are doctors, not home security experts. They should use their expertise where it was meant to be used.
 

WDR65

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While the idea of keeping a gun locked and unloaded is a great safeguard for your children it doesn't seem that it would be very practical or effective when a threat appears without warning. How many people would be able to unlock a gun with a small key and then load it after being awakened in the middle of the night unexpectedly and without some degree of training and lots of practice. The stress of the situation would inhibit being able to do some fairly complex tasks and would probably make even loading the gun seem almost impossible.

I think a better solution would be to teach gun safety as soon as the children are old enough to understand dangers. Just as parents have to teach safety about knives and to stay away from them or how to properly handle them, gun safety could be taught in the same manner. I'm not advocating handing a three year old a gun, but teaching them not to touch them without permission can go a long way in some cases.

On a personal note there have always been loaded firearms around my parent's house for as long as I can remember. They live fairly far away from a main road and there are all sorts of critters that you may encounter in the yard or in the fields around the house. There weren't very many pistols kept around when I was young but there was always a shotgun in a hall closet that my brother and I were not allowed to touch as it was kept with shells in the magazine.

VTunderground,
I hope everything turns out alright and that maybe some good lessons will come of this incident. I think you're on the right path with the shotgun. Under stress I think most average people will be more effective with a long gun than any pistol, though I'm sure there are exceptions.

Dudley
 

ABTOMAT

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I'm a believer that a gun should be locked up when it's out of your control/out of sight, regardless of whether you have kids. Theives can get at them, too. But if you keep a gun handy for protection at night you should keep it ready. I don't think kids are going to extract a shotgun from under your bed at four in the morning. Just don't leave it sitting around when you leave the house.
 

chevrofreak

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TedThe Led, I take it that you dont want people to have guns?



I'm curious about something that may or may not have been answered already. Did anyone other than the 12 year old actually see the intruder? I ask because i know that kids that age can often make up elaborate stories, or wake up from a nightmare thinking it was real.

For weapons, I'm going to suggest that a .357 revolver not even be considered. Too much recoil and muzzle flash for someone who isn't a shooter. You need them to actually be able to hit their target, not skip the round off the ground infront of them or throw it too high as I often see at the shooting range. Add in the fact that you get a limited number of rounds before a slow and clunky reload must be performed. Not something I would suggest for a non-shooter.

If a shotgun isn't available with 0 buck or larger shotshells, a 9mm semi-auto pistol will work just fine. Don't buy into the "bigger is better" crap because it is mostly BS. Put some good ammo in the gun, such as 147gr or 127gr +P+ Winchester Ranger T or 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots and it will have all the "stopping power" you need, unless the intruder is a grizzly bear.

Whoever is tasked with defending the home needs to get some training, both on how to operate the gun and shoot it but on state and local laws about self defense.

Perhaps someone who is profficient with firearms could spend a few nights there watching over the family until the father or mother gets some training.
 

TedTheLed

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chevrofreak said:
TedThe Led, I take it that you dont want people to have guns?

I guess your were reaming your muzzle or something when this went by:

"...If you have kids in your house, and you keep firearms, keep the guns locked and unloaded , with the ammunition locked in a separate location.

Before your child goes to a friend's house, you should ask the friend's parent whether the family has firearms in the house, and how they are stored. This can be part of all the usual things you would discuss before a visit, like allergies, snacks, sunscreen, etc.

For more information on asking these kinds of questions, visit the Asking Saves Kids (ASK) website sponsored by the non-political PAX organization in cooperation with the American Academy of Pediatrics. ...."

..what I want is for kids not to be killed or injured by guns.

(btw Chevro, are you still putting all of us who drive in mortal danger by your practice of speeding on public highways? would I like no one to speed? yes.)

:dedhorse: (before the horse was beaten, it was run over, then shot.)
 

chevrofreak

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TedTheLed said:
I guess your were reaming your muzzle or something when this went by:

"...If you have kids in your house, and you keep firearms, keep the guns locked and unloaded , with the ammunition locked in a separate location.

Before your child goes to a friend's house, you should ask the friend's parent whether the family has firearms in the house, and how they are stored. This can be part of all the usual things you would discuss before a visit, like allergies, snacks, sunscreen, etc.

For more information on asking these kinds of questions, visit the Asking Saves Kids (ASK) website sponsored by the non-political PAX organization in cooperation with the American Academy of Pediatrics. ...."

..what I want is for kids not to be killed or injured by guns.

(btw Chevro, are you still putting all of us who drive in mortal danger by your practice of speeding on public highways? would I like no one to speed? yes.)

:dedhorse: (before the horse was beaten, it was run over, then shot.)


Um, you've got me confused for someone else. I don't speed.
 

markdi

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I hope you catch this guy and he suffers greatly

I like many others speed behind the wheel - who doesn't - watch out.

no accidents - only 1 ticket(seat belt) in 15 years.
 
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