To LEO's, how much light do you really need?

[Bullet120]

When going to ground searches, the sky's the limit... That's why I ask the question, "...how much light do you really need?"

Since that is the question asked, maybe I can give better feedback. I think you're right on track with your fully lit at 100 yard goal. More is nice (of course), but this is a solid goal. Now, how many lumens does it take to get there? Well, I suppose that depends on you and your light design. A DEFT can do it easily, but I need to see more than someone's nose. I'd like to see a 20 ft hotspot at that distance. But then, what does that do for me up close?

 

[Brigadier]

FWIW, personally, I find the JetBeam M1X to come up short after a hundred feet or so.

Seriously? Wow...

 

[Brigadier]

When going to ground searches, the sky's the limit...

Thanks for your through and thoughtful reply. As lights come in and are tested for effectiveness, I'm fast finding the truth of your comment above. The only problem I'm having, I can't order up every possibility so as to take them out into the world and give them a test spin. That's why I ask the question, "...how much light do you really need?"

So far, my brightest test beam is about 450 OTF lumens, which is short of your minimum suggested six hundred lumen recommendation. The next light coming in will have some eight hundred and fifty OTF lumens. If that light doesn't cut it, I'll have to go to what I call the "super-thrower" category such as what you suggest, the Olight SR-90 or the FireSword IV; "Quality well spent."

I want, "at the least," a fully lit hundred yards out of the deal. So far, four hundred and fifty lumens seems to give about fifty yards in what I call "fully" lit. Fully lit to me means, being able to easily see details on a tall building's wall or roof details from a normal distance across a swimming pool courtyard of a condo/townhouse complex. I'd like to be able to see into the shadows of tall trees without conflict from ancillary light sources; one light swallowing up another's light beam. Fully lit to me means going onto a high school campus at night and being able to light (clear) the football field from any position on a stormy night. Being fully lit means, going into a trucking yard or commercial warehouse complex and light any porch or loading dock under the worst stormy nighttime lighting conditions during a blackout. For safety's sake, to me, these are reasonable expectations of one's heavy duty, duty light.

Damn military (Navy) ruined me. Because now I want to own the situation and nothing less.

:scowl:

The good news, I get to keep all the samples.

IMHO, from reading your post, especially with regards to seeing/not seeing details, maybe you need to look at an incan instead of more LED lumens. For the price of an SR-90, you could get a SureFire M3T and a few different bulbs to try out. Heck, I would recommend an M6, and run an MN15 bulb: see here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/142517

I would also recommend an LF Seraph SP-9 with a D36 TH and an SR-9L or HO-9L on 2X18500's.

It is my experience that with LESS light output, details like you are describing are easier to see with an incan than even an M1X. I own the M1X, SF M3, and the SP-9 outfitted like I described. Even though the M1X puts out morer OTF lumens than the M3 or SP-9, I find outdoors the incans show up details much better.

YMMV.

 

[Roger999]

I'm surprised no one responded with how many lumens are in sunlight? :shrug:

10^40? since lumens are a measure of total output and the sun has a crazy flood........we should get a new reflector for the sun.

 

[Dennis]

Wow, sounds like you are spec'ing out search and rescue lights and not your typical patrol duty light. Of course, everything comes down to the intended mission so every cop is gonna be different, even on the same Department depending on assignment, even by personal preference as to how they accomplish their goals. Too much light can be a hindrance inside, as can too little light outside. Too complicated of a light can be a problem if the officer doesn't train with it. You could give an Olight M30 to every cop on a Dept. and I bet at least a third of them would get it stuck in low mode and happily, ignorantly, keep it there. Others may find high mode but blind themselves inside and stop using it altogether.

So basically my answer to your question is you need a light that works for YOU however you want to use it. Lumens are secondary beyond a certain minimal threshold of maybe 60.

Dennis.

- Olight M30 Primary Duty
- SF A2L on belt for backup/sneaky light
- SF X300 on G17
- Malkoff M60WL in SF Forend on Remington 870
- Quiglite on vest
- Streamlight cuff key on keychain
- Photon 2 on keychain

 

[BeeMan458]

Brigadier wrote:

Seriously? Wow...

Maybe my expectations are too high.

:thinking:

It is my experience that with LESS light output, details like you are describing are easier to see with an incan than even an M1X. I own the M1X, SF M3, and the SP-9 outfitted like I described. Even though the M1X puts out morer OTF lumens than the M3 or SP-9, I find outdoors the incans show up details much better.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for the reply. How far out are you getting full, into the shadow detail with your above set ups? I've gone so far as to mark up a hundred and twenty-five foot string so I can easily lay out a site for reasonably accurate distance qualifications.

Today the JetBeam RRT-2 came in and either Friday or Saturday, I expect for the RRT-3 to come in for trial purposes. FWIW, I find the RRT-2 to have a much tighter and brighter center beam than it's sibling, the Jet-III M.

 

[BeeMan458]

Dennis wrote:

Wow, sounds like you are spec'ing out search and rescue lights and not your typical patrol duty light.

That's why I'm having to come to you guys cause I've never done "patrol."

For the pocket, I threw a JetBeam RRT-0 into the duty gift bag for our son. For his belt, for simplicity of UI, I threw a JetBeam Jet-III M into the bag. And for search purposes, a JetBeam RRT-3 is on it's way with it's six different power levels to cover the distance.

I find that personally, I'm very disappointed in the light output with the lesser lights (M1X on back to the smaller lights) for what I consider to be acceptable levels of light if I were on patrol and had to be out looking for bad guys on a dark and dreary night. That's why I'm asking you guys, "...how much light do you really need?" That's also why I'm setting up the measuring string so I can see how far I'm really pushing the light out to.

Thanks all for putting up with my anal nitpicking on the lighting issue. It's "very" important to me that I give our son the best possible lighting that parents can.

 

[LowBat]

Enough to see everyone in the car you're walking up on, or enough to see that person trying to hide from you in the bushes. Basically you want throw, except for situations like building searches where flood tends to work best as you need your peripheral vision. For close up needs like writing a secondary low powered floody LED flashlight comes in very handy.

 

[Brigadier]

I will try to get some distance measurements tonight.

I forgot to add - the Cabela's 9V XPG Xenon with their mini turbo head is surprisingly bright, focused, and the light is very very white for an incan.

The warmest high power LED I have is a 5.11 UC3.400 for around the house. On high it is rated @ 270 lumens. The incans out 'detail' it past 100 yds.

Also, you might want to consider why the incan Streamlight Stinger series is so popular with LEOs......

 

[021411]

I am full-time in a major metropolitan area working nights. I prefer a warm tint for color rendition.

Belt: Surefire Z2 with Malkoff M60W MC-E. This light comes out when my gun comes out of the holster (clearing buildings/rooms) or when I need general purpose lighting. It does it's job.

Car: Streamlight SL-20X with prototype Malkoff 3X Q5. This light comes out of my car when I do traffic stops and when I make house calls. It makes a great door knocker. This is also my search light.

Backup: (kept in my pocket) Nitecore EX10 R2

The belt and car combo has turned night into day for over 2 years and I have never encountered a problem. I try to stay away from multi-modes. On/off 1 level is all I have used. Less is more.

 

[BeeMan458]

The main gist of my question is distance. Maybe I've been asking the question wrong. How far do you guys need to be able to see with the lights that you're using when looking for the bad guys?

I just finished a through walk around the condo complex where I live with two JetBeam lights; a RRT-2 and a M1X. The RRT-2 was killer for walkway shrubbery and between parked cars in the parking lot. The M1X would fill in "short" distances but it seems that if it's more than a hundred and fifty feet, the shadows started winning out over the M1X and the light would only highlight the surface areas of the shrub.

:mecry:

Maybe I'm overthinking this whole flashlight thing. And then again, maybe my old man eyes suck and I shouldn't be allowed to make this type of lighting evaluation.

 

[Brigadier]

According to Google Earth, from where I was standing to the front door of the vacant house across the street diagonally from me is 205 feet. I tested the following lights:

SureFire M3 with MN10[lowest power] bulb 3XCR123
LF Seraph SP-9 as described - HO-9L bulb 2X18500
Cabela's XPG 9V w/ TH 3XCR123
JetBeam M1X 4XCR123

The incans all seemed about equal. Very little difference. The SP-9 had the most spill.

The M1X, while brighter by far, made everything look flat and 2 dimensional.

Now, when I lit up the trees behind the house, the LED M1X made everything look really flat. Bright, but flat. The cedars looked like blue spruces. The incans made them look their natural green.

Were I to use one of these on duty if I were LEO, I would personally run the M3, and carry a brighter bulb - like the LF HO-M3, for a dedicated search type light. If run time is the overwhelming factor - the M1X gets the nod, as even the low power MN10 bulb in the M3 kills a set of batteries in 1 hr. But like I said in a previous post - if I were LEO, I'd be looking hard at an M3T or an M6.

But then again, given the shear output and generous spill of the M1X, runtime, AND the throw, it might win the job.....? But it sounds like you are discovering what I have discovered - cool white LED's suck against concrete and blacktop, IMO.

YMMV.

Good hunting.

 

[BeeMan458]

That sure was thoughtful of you to do the test/evaluation that you did. That was very kind of you.

"Yeah baby!"

I've grown very accustom to the cool white light but like you wrote, after a certain distance, although the light gets there, it doesn't get there convincingly as in it's flat or two dimensional. Not only does it not get there convincingly, but it seems to drop off a cliff as to usefulness after a certain distance. I'll check out the models that you suggested in your above post.

Thanks again for all you did.

:thumbsup:

Oh, and FWIW, the RRT-2 received from Bug Out Gear today, is definitely a keeper.

 

[csa]

I recently had this conversation with an LEO friend. The M3T or M6 definitely won out in his book for sheer usefulness over brighter LED solutions.

 

[021411]

It also comes to a point of "how in the heck do I carry all my lights?"
I'm being serious on that part. I have so much stuff on my duty belt as is.
Taser, 2 pairs of cuffs, radio, flashlight, large flashlight ring, Maxpedition Roly Poly pouch, plethora of keepers, baton, gun, and magazine holder. You can only fit so much stuff in your pockets as well.
I have 2 lights on me at all times.. That's as much as I can safety carry without being cumbersome.

 

[curtispdx]

My vote goes to an incandescent of some sort. As much as it pains me to recommend them I'd point you toward a Streamlight 20X with the upgraded lamp or the Ultrastinger. (I've had both.) Simple, simple, simple and they are available just about anywhere.

That coupled with a Malkoff MD2 with the hi/low ring mated to a M60/M61 running primaries would be a nice setup.

OSP doesn't issue its recruits lights? (You might want to wait a bit to see what he gets issued and/or what the other troopers are using.)

 

[BeeMan458]

Thanks for all your input. I'll be abandoning this thread and leaving the forum and go back to lurking.

Due to everybody's input, our son will be getting what we hope will be an appropriate, well thought out and useful graduation gift when he graduates academy. Everybody's input has been helpful and appreciated towards this end.

 

[HarryN]

Very interesting read.

 

[HIDblue]

Thanks again.

:thumbsup:

Sounds like the threesome being putting together will work out just dandy.

JetBeam RRT-0 for the pocket.

JetBeam Jet-III M for the belt.

JetBeam RRT-3 for the spotter.

This, of course, coupled with Pila charger, two sets of 18650's and a fresh box of Surefire CR123A's.

BeeMan, instead of the Jet-III M, I'd go with the Jet RRT-2 for the belt. Then the UI's would pretty much be uniform across the board. Consistency equals familiarity. And your kid won't get confused switching from one UI to a different UI between the Jet-III M and the RRT series lights. Just my 2 cents though. Congrats to your kid.

 

[BeeMan458]

Thanks!

And I don't mind ordering up another RRT-2. Besides, I get to keep all "samples."