Ultracapacitors and batteries

Unless they've found some incredible new way to get much greater energy density than every other capacitor currently available, the cap they use would need to be about the size as a 6V lantern battery (4F). From their dimensions specs, it looks like the cap is no bigger than 2D. You could get the same output/runtime performance with 1AA NiMH.

Odd that they don't really say anything about the cap itself, which is the main selling point of the light. :thinking:
 
I think the super caps are probably going to take over batteries eventually. Unless there are some huge battery breakthroughs.

Super caps have about 10,000 time the density of an average cap.. you can usually always trust wiki:

"In contrast with traditional capacitors, supercapacitors do not have a conventional dielectric, as such. They are based on a structure that contains an electrical double layer. In a double layer, the effective thickness of the "dielectric" is exceedingly thin—on the order of nanometers—and that, combined with the very large surface area, is responsible for their extraordinarily high capacitances in practical sizes."

"In terms of energy density, existing commercial supercapacitors range around 0.5 to 10 W·h/kg, with the standardized cells available from Maxwell Technologies rated at 6 W·h/kg. Experimental supercapacitors from the MIT LEES project have demonstrated densities of 30 W·h/kg and appear to be scalable to 60 W·h/kg in the short term,[5] while EEStor claims their examples will offer capacities on the order of 200 to 300 W·h/kg. For comparison, a conventional lead-acid battery is typically 30 to 40 W·h/kg, modern lithium-ion batteries are about 120 W·h/kg, and in an automobile applications gasoline has a net calorific value (NCV) of around 12,000 W·h/kg operating at a 20% tank-to-wheel efficiency."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

Very interesting article.
 
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Yes, that was my point. My calculations were based on Maxwell supercaps, specifically, the 1200F one. 6Wh/kg for a Maxwell supercap, or even the 60Wh/kg for the experimental ones in the LEES project you mentioned, don't compare very favorably to 120Wh/kg for Li-Ions.

And regular batteries are much cheaper and easier to find, too.

That said, it would be quite cool if this light really does use some fantastic new super-dense cap, if only for the fast recharge and long cycle life. Too bad it's not quite 1AA size, though. :)
 
An experimental 60 Wh/kg strikes me as being quite positively fantastic, considering how fast they could be discharged and recharged, and how many times they could be cycled.
 
We have actually been looking into this for quite a while, even got some prototypes.. there are two main issues. One is energy density which is about 10 times less, so if you take a Dsize cell or any other size you get about 10 times less capacity which kind of is a lot.

However the more important issue with using it in flashlights is the rather complicated electronics to charge and discharge boostcaps. I think what is needed is a simpler setup from the manufacturers that allow easier charging and discharging. Until this happens my guess is that we won't see much use.

The ideal setup would be a combination of ultracaps and battery technology but again its quite involved to make it all work.
 
1/10th the energy density of a regular battery still sounds interesting. Imagine a 2aa sized flashlight containing one cheapo alkaline AA cell and one aa-sized supercapacitor. The AA cell charges the capacitor through a boost converter at a low enough current for the alkaline chemistry to handle efficiently, so the battery has about 2.5 WH. Then you can use the capacitor to run the light at high power, like 10 watts through an SSC P7 for 0.25 hours at 500 lumens, spaced across some short bursts with rests for recharging the capacitor. Wow!
 
1/10th the energy density of a regular battery still sounds interesting. Imagine a 2aa sized flashlight containing one cheapo alkaline AA cell and one aa-sized supercapacitor. The AA cell charges the capacitor through a boost converter at a low enough current for the alkaline chemistry to handle efficiently, so the battery has about 2.5 WH. Then you can use the capacitor to run the light at high power, like 10 watts through an SSC P7 for 0.25 hours at 500 lumens, spaced across some short bursts with rests for recharging the capacitor. Wow!
Go buy a disposable camera, and cannibalize the flash system. :grin2: Be careful with it, though: my buddy once melted a fork tine with the capacitor from one of those.

2AA NiMH can already put out enough power to properly drive a P7. All it needs is the proper boost circuit (and heatsinking, etc.). I'd estimate 20m or so with a pair of Eneloops and a 50% efficient boost driver.

Don't get me wrong, folks; I'd love to see a capacitor that could compete with already-available cells. It's just really not there yet (kind of like solar-powered cars, DNA computing, and so on).
 
Don't get me wrong, folks; I'd love to see a capacitor that could compete with already-available cells. It's just really not there yet (kind of like solar-powered cars, DNA computing, and so on).
True but barring discovery of some new chemistry I think in the next few years supercaps will equal, and then surpass, chemical cells. I'm sure a lot of R&D money is going into this. Supercaps are the ideal battery-hundreds of thousands of recharges, ultra-quick recharging, potential to be very light yet store a lot of energy. Flashlight use is just the beginning. Supercaps should make EVs mainstream. They can also be used for storage on solar and wind systems. Really no end to the uses to which they can be put.
 
Supercapacitors are not quite the ideal battery. Unlike a battery their voltage decreases linearly as the charge decreases. This means complex electronics are needed to convert the varying capacitor voltage into a fixed output voltage. There is also a limit on the lowest voltage those electronics can accept, so you can never obtain 100% of the rated charge.

Secondly, super rapid charging is something of a myth. Suppose you had a 2000 mAh supercapacitor and you wanted to charge it in 30 seconds. That would require a charge rate of 2 Ah / (1/120 h) = 240 A. You will not find a consumer charger that delivers a 240 amp charge rate. It would be large, heavy and expensive.

Personally I do not think capacitors will be a general replacement for electrochemical cells in the foreseeable future. They will have specialist applications but they are not a universal technology.
 
True but barring discovery of some new chemistry I think in the next few years supercaps will equal, and then surpass, chemical cells.
No new chemistry is needed. Just the existing experimental ones combined with the carbon nanotube technology and batteries will still be ahead.
 
Supercapacitors are not quite the ideal battery. Unlike a battery their voltage decreases linearly as the charge decreases. This means complex electronics are needed to convert the varying capacitor voltage into a fixed output voltage. There is also a limit on the lowest voltage those electronics can accept, so you can never obtain 100% of the rated charge.
It isn't as bad as you think. Most things which accept alkaline batteries function over a range of 0.9 to 1.6 volts per cell. A supercap starting out at 1.6 volts will discharge 69% of its energy by the time it gets to 0.9 volts. Something purpose built to work with supercaps can be made to use an even larger percentage. This is hardly a show stopper with today's electronics. On thing great about ultracaps is you know exactly how much energy is remaining based on the capacitor voltage and the initial/minimum voltages. No fancy guesswork as with chemical cells.

Secondly, super rapid charging is something of a myth. Suppose you had a 2000 mAh supercapacitor and you wanted to charge it in 30 seconds. That would require a charge rate of 2 Ah / (1/120 h) = 240 A. You will not find a consumer charger that delivers a 240 amp charge rate. It would be large, heavy and expensive.
Realistically nobody needs 30 second recharges. The quickest fast charge rate anybody needs is on the order of 5 minutes. This would be for EVs stopping at recharging stations on long trips. Consumer cells don't need to be charged this rapidly. And in the event you want to, the charge rate for 5 minute chargers would be about 24 amps, not much more than 8 minute chargers.

Personally I do not think capacitors will be a general replacement for electrochemical cells in the foreseeable future. They will have specialist applications but they are not a universal technology.
It all depends upon whether ultracaps can outcompete chemical cells in terms of energy density and price per watt-hour. For now chemical cells win hands down but I see a bright future in ultracaps. I especially like the ultra-long lifetime. A battery pack from a vehicle which is past end of life might have considerable resale value because of this.

No new chemistry is needed. Just the existing experimental ones combined with the carbon nanotube technology and batteries will still be ahead.
Nanotechnology will help ultracaps as well. In fact, I think it's the one thing needed to get ultracaps on par with chemical cells. If we happen to see 5000 mAh NiMH AAs before then thanks to nanotechnology, then that's great also.
 
I'm sorry, but I get 68.3%. That's a big fail. :nana:

:)

(Oh, BTW: E = 0.5CV^2, with E in joules and C in farads.)
 
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Realistically nobody needs 30 second recharges. The quickest fast charge rate anybody needs is on the order of 5 minutes. This would be for EVs stopping at recharging stations on long trips. Consumer cells don't need to be charged this rapidly. And in the event you want to, the charge rate for 5 minute chargers would be about 24 amps, not much more than 8 minute chargers.
LiFeP04 cells can be both discharged and recharged in a few minutes, yet are much better off in terms of actual energy density than ultracaps. So in terms of power density, A123 cells for example are already up for just about any task an ultracap woudl be needed for. However, the projected improvements in energy density due to nanotubes are massive.
 
I suppose you could make a 30s charger by just putting a second ultracap in it, and have that one "slow"-charge (relatively slow :) ) after charging the cap in your light (or other device), although it'd probably be easier to just swap the caps when your light is drained instead of using one to charge the other.
 

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