Was I expecting too much?

[Racer]

I agree about the de-emphasis on durability. But while it would be nice to have a light so durable that it's bomb-proof, I wonder how many of us need quite that level of durability. What I look at is durability bang for the buck. Can I have durability on a budget? I can't speak for more expensive lights like SF since I don't own any, but clearly something like the E01 is going to have that bang for the buck. In fact, that amount of durability for $12 is pretty amazing.

So durability-wise I think that some brands/models are a better value than others if that's what you value, which I do since I'm getting clumsy in my old age. If a $60 light doesn't survive a small drop (which has happened to me) and if I get a replacement, that replacement is not going to be my EDC. I look at that as an opportunity to find the right light for me so it's not very frustrating - more like a challenge.

And since I don't generally rely on them for life/death I have the luxury of giving every light the durability benefit of the doubt. What I've noticed is that it's not always obvious which light is the most durable and it doesn't always have to do with price either.

After about a year of being a flasholic buying $10-$100 lights, I'm starting to get a good idea of what I want in a light and what brands I trust. I have a $40 iTP light that took a drop on concrete so hard it took a chunk out of the tail (among other drops) and still works perfectly. And my dad drops his $40 Jetbeam as often as I drop mine and otherwise beats the crap out of it. So in my experience those values in durability are there to be found if durability is what you value.

 

[fyrstormer]

He paid more than he feels he maybe should have for the light, I'm sure there were other options, but he has it now so best to look at it in a good light. It has a 10 year warranty, so use it, don't hold back and if you do have an issue don't be one of the people who doesn't use the warranty, take advantage of it.

If you do that then you'll feel like you got your moneys worth in comparison to a light with no or shorter warranty of the same quality, as that is basically what your extra $ paid for. If it never breaks, even better, by the time you've built up trust of the light itself you'll not even think about other options at the time having seemed better as the trust will be unique to that light which has gone through what it has with you.

Either way, you feel much better than slightly regretting the purchase and letting that effect your subjective evaluation of the light and so not using it.

Fair point. Another option is to sell it as used in the Marketplace, get back some of the money, and let someone else enjoy it who doesn't care about the kinds of problems the OP noticed. I've done that many times.

 

[RedForest UK]

Yeah, that's another option. Sometimes selling is more effort than it's worth though, it's often hard to recoup what you feel the light's worth when you take into account your time listing it and checking the MP taking to the post office and posting etc. It's completely down to the opinion of the OP which option is better though.

 

[Tommygun45]

Warranties are tricky buggers. You might think that a long warranty suggests the manufacturer has confidence in their product, and sometimes it does mean that. However, a lot of the time, a long warranty is offered because it enhances the aura of the product and because the manufacturer is confident that the user won't want to bother with getting warranty service. Another thing you should know about the USA is that people here are much more tolerant of throwing away "cheap" things when they stop working. (yes, I'm sure there are people in Europe who are the same way, but it's certainly part of the culture here -- don't weigh yourself down with old things, just toss them and get new ones!)

Lots of manufacturers take that into consideration when selling products in the USA. All a manufacturer needs to do is require that warranty requests must include a copy of the purchase receipt, to prove date-of-purchase, and probably 75% of the potential warranty claims vanish. That goes a long way towards reducing the warranty cost of selling a product that would be terribly unprofitable if all in-warranty repairs were actually completed.

From my favorite movie, Tommyboy...

Ted Nelson: Go on, I'm listening.Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.Ted Nelson: Yeah, makes a man feel good.Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?Ted Nelson: What's your point?Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Buildin' model airplanes!" says the little fairy, well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off your dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I've seen it a hundred times.Ted Nelson: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of poop. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I've got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

That's kind of the way I feel about 4Sevens stuff. That 10 year warranty is nice and all, but in one year of owning 4Sevens lights I've already had to use it 3 times on 2 lights. That is not good. 2 times were for tailcaps that just stopped functioning. Sure I could have apparently taken them apart and fixed them, but I dont want to have to do that. I hardly even used the lights. The other time I had to use a q-tip and clean the brass contacts inside the light. Either way, they were annoying issues that needed to be resolved. The light stopped working, period.

I had given my girlfriend a Preon for her purse. One night she went to use it, it wouldn't turn on. We lived in the back woods of Maine at the time. Not safe. Turned out the tailcap switch had failed. A tailcap switch I had bought from 4Sevens aftermarket, but still, designed to work with the light. That freaked me out so I got her a Surefire E1L instead. It has never had an issue.

I started out with 4Sevens lights because of their great numbers. They had good run times and high outputs, at an affordable price. However, I too realized that I greatly prefer durability and general quality over output and runtimes. I can't help but think about drafting for a football team. Sure there's the guy who runs the fastest 40 and jumps the highest, but he might be the most likely guy to get hurt and miss half the year with a pulled hamstring. I'll take the guy who's a little slower, doesn't jump as high, but is always there when you need him. IE Mr. Malkoff, Henry, and Surefire. You get what you pay for.

Last year with my EDC stuff I was here...

Today I am here..

And, OP, since you claim to have a penchant for durability, prepare your wallet my friend. Its a nasty habit.

 

[js82]

I was also disappointed with my purchase of a 4sevens quark. It's the build quality that's lacking. The anodizing doesn't hold up as well as a type 3 should, and even my xeno e03 type 2 anodizing has held up better. The body where the batteries go into doesn't have a centered hole - some parts of the wall are thinner than others. This non-centered issue is present with both the AA and AA2 bodies I received. Worst of all, when I received my quark it wouldn't work. The tailcap had some sorta of issue with the thread anodizing that caused contact problems. At least 4sevens sent me a replacement tailcap without requiring me to send the old one back.

I really like the "tactical" programmable interface and the levels/features available like beacon and SOS though. Runtime and regulation are also pretty good. So it's really the mechanical issues that I'm not impressed with.

 

[NoFair]

I agree that the anodizing isn't good on 4Sevens lights. Wish they were natural HA and a lot thicker. Otherwise mine have all been good, even the ones I given away. They feel a bit flimsy, but seem to hold up well even when abused regularly

I only have experience with the tactical models and a few Preons.

I don't EDC any 4Sevens lights (use either a modded Arc6 or a V10R AE), but they see regular use with no issues.

 

[yliu]

My Fenix LD20 scratched was well when I took off the clip.

 

[Chidwack]

My first 2xAA light was a 4Sevens Quark AA2 Tactical. I liked it enough to buy another 2xAA light. Since then I have bought 5 total lights that use the 2xAA format. Of the 5, the Quark is my least favorite. I like the Klarus P2A, Klarus ST20, Jetbeam BA20 and finally the best of the bunch, the Shiningbeam Caveman all better than the 4Sevens Quark. The Quark was up to 33% more expensive than all the others. Get yourself a Caveman and never look back.

 

[Woods Walker]

Warranties are tricky buggers. You might think that a long warranty suggests the manufacturer has confidence in their product, and sometimes it does mean that. However, a lot of the time, a long warranty is offered because it enhances the aura of the product and because the manufacturer is confident that the user won't want to bother with getting warranty service.

I agree. Like you stated a company can go BK or change the policy and then make it retroactive aka not honor the warrantee. Is someone going to get a lawyer over a 5 year-old flashlight? I don't think so. If someone wants to buy a flashlight it should first be based on the merits of the gear item. I only own one 4/Sevens but like it. I think the OP should use the gear in the field a bit and then decide if his expectations were inline with reality. Sometimes first impressions can be wrong both pro or con.

 

[Racer]

Other than maybe the Preon to someday round out my AAA collection, I don't have much of an interest in 4Sevens lights. I almost pulled the trigger on one that had a moonlight mode until I found out about the pre-flash and other issues. I'm still a flashlight novice but having a camera flash on my moonlight mode would defeat the whole purpose for wanting that mode in the first place. I don't understand how a company would go forward with a design like that. From there my opinion of them has gone down hill.

So far the best anodizing on any of my lights is my Sunwayman M20C. I also get the impression I could run over it with my Suburban, but there lies the heart of my problem with the more expensive lights in my collection (expensive to me at least). I don't carry that one because I don't want to scratch the beautiful anodizing and i don't want to risk breaking it or have the wife nag me for breaking it. I guess it's the same reason the $3000 Tag Heuer watch sits in the drawer while I wear the $10 Timex. It looks too cool to ding up and it's too expensive (for me) to beat up.

I'm not opposed to someday giving a Quark a chance but I think right now there's other lights out there that are a MUCH better value. And some of the lights I'm looking at, the like the V10A are almost into SF prices territory. Heh, I guess that's where my addiction is heading. Same for the pocket knives too

EDIT: And I don't understand how some of you guys with your ridiculously expensive lights could ever stand to watch them bounce down the driveway. I'm totally fine with watching a $50 or $60 light bounce on the ground but I couldn't bear the thought of dropping some $500 custom light or even using it to do tasks like working on the truck or crawling through the attic.

 

[tab665]

4sevens has the ability to get thier hands on the newest LEDs faster than the compition because of thier relationship with cree. but eventually everyone else gets thier hands on the latest bin too. it seems everyone is now up to date on emitters which makes 4seven just seem like a so-so brand.

 

[GarageBoy]

I'm torn on 4Sevens
I've bought lights since their Fenix days and as much I like 4sevens lights, I feel the build quality could be a tad bit nicer. My Q123 Mini X skips modes occasionally and have to spend time getting it into the mode I want. One of my Quarks had a loose switch retaining ring. Same quark flipped out one day and went into a weird moon mode (Tactical set to med/turbo) on both loose and tighten positions.

If I can get better reliability and maybe nicer build quality (threads/switching) I'd be 100% satisfied

 

[burntoshine]

4sevens brand has pros and cons. one of the pros is low prices; but in my experience, you trade that for quality control. they have designed some really cool flashlights. sadly, i have had numerous quality control issues with them; too many for my liking.

 

[fyrstormer]

4sevens has the ability to get thier hands on the newest LEDs faster than the compition because of thier relationship with cree. but eventually everyone else gets thier hands on the latest bin too. it seems everyone is now up to date on emitters which makes 4seven just seem like a so-so brand.

Also, the pull of the latest and greatest emitters only works on junior-grade flashaholics. Once you've collected them long enough to see the latest and greatest be superceded within a couple months a few times, and once you've realized that gaining an extra 30 lumens doesn't matter when you already have 300, you start to care about things that don't get superceded, like build quality and UI intuitiveness. 4Sevens doesn't have the build quality I want, and their memory-less UI is aggravating. The inclusion of mode-memory should be a given nowadays, because it costs nothing -- the flash memory needed to store the brightness is already built into the microprocessor that selects and controls the brightness of the emitter, all that's missing is maybe 20 lines of computer code.

 

[fyrstormer]

EDIT: And I don't understand how some of you guys with your ridiculously expensive lights could ever stand to watch them bounce down the driveway. I'm totally fine with watching a $50 or $60 light bounce on the ground but I couldn't bear the thought of dropping some $500 custom light or even using it to do tasks like working on the truck or crawling through the attic.

It's like a car or your own skin; only the first couple dings or the first couple wrinkles matter to you, then you make your peace with it. Also, if you buy titanium instead of aluminum, there's no anodizing to chip off and the metal itself is outstandingly durable. I've dinged a couple of my titanium lights, but the dings were so small I had to specifically search them out with my fingers. All it took to get rid of them was a light sanding with emory paper.

Also, when you've spent $500 on a tool, you actually can't stand to NOT use it. It feels like a wasted investment sitting on the shelf all by its lonesome.

 

[Racer]

Also, when you've spent $500 on a tool, you actually can't stand to NOT use it. It feels like a wasted investment sitting on the shelf all by its lonesome.

It's a tool. I get that. But can a home mechanic justify a $100 SnapOn wrench to remove just one drain plug a few times a year? As a light duty home mechanic I've never had a $5 Craftsman wrench fail. Maybe not the best analogy but you can see what I'm getting at. For me, a computer nerd, that $500 light looks extravagant, at least on paper. At least for a tool. For an EDC it seems like even an HDS would be pushing it for my lifestyle. I think I'll just keep moving up the food chain and see where I end up

 

[budynabuick]

That being said, all anodized lights are bound to get scratched



funny you said that as about a hr ago i realized i carried my ld01 in my pocket all day with a brand new folded 8 in piece of #80 grit DA paper HeHe.
I just laid it on the table as i did not even want to look at it. It reminded me when i read your statement and decided too look at the damage. Didn't have a scratch on it!:sick2:

Keith

 

[fyrstormer]

For me, a computer nerd, that $500 light looks extravagant, at least on paper. At least for a tool. For an EDC it seems like even an HDS would be pushing it for my lifestyle. I think I'll just keep moving up the food chain and see where I end up

For me, a computer nerd, that $500 light looks like something I'll never ever have to replace. As compared to, you know, a $500 computer that will probably last two years before it suffers a power supply failure that will take out half the motherboard with it.

My flashlights are certainly the most expensive of my tools thus far, though admittedly that's partly because I like their aesthetics as well. I would never admire a Craftsman wrench the way I admire a McGizmo, or my mechanical pocket watch, or the $90 German-made adjustable wrench I use to fix plumbing. (google "knipex wrench" for details) I have a collection of cheap wrenches, yes, but I also have a collection of expensive, highly-useful-in-certain-situations tools that I've determined I have a need for, and a flashlight that I can drop into the engine bay of a running car (oops, only did that once) is among them.

 

[budynabuick]

4sevens offer relatively average lights at a slightly inflated price, but are trying to forge a brand name along the lines of latest technology and innovation etc as surefire pretty much has the durability but very high price market covered (I know there are other niche brands like HDS and Malkoff but they aren't anywhere near as well known).

However, while you are in general paying in my opinion around 30% more than you should far a quark (this is easy to work out from the Mini models, as they are OEM from the same factory and components as the iTP A series were, which retail around a third less) what you get with 4sevens is a 10 year warranty. This is arguably mainly what people pay surefire a massive amount of money for (although theirs is lifetime and I'm sure their lights are in general sturdier anyway).

However, you have to remember this point, if you treat 4sevens as a normal quality/efficiency to $ light they come out around 30% higher than they should, but if you factor in the fact that in 10 years of moderate to heavy use you are likely to need some sort of warranty help then you may well get your moneys worth. This is why I quoted the post above, throwing a Preon away seems pointless, as the extra cost of fixing it was part of what was paid for in the original purchase.

Of course, this reasoning means that for international customers, 4sevens is much worse value for money due to the shipping costs and added time of RMA added to the roughly 50% added on for retail here anyway. It also means 4sevens aren't ideal for those who won't use their lights at all as they probably won't need the warranty, and for people who won't bother with the warranty claim anyway if there is a problem. It also means that those of us likely to keep buying new lights as the technology advances and 'retiring' old ones also won't be getting as good a deal overall as the 10 year warranty isn't worth anything more than a 2 year one if the light is only used for 2 years.

The gist of this I guess is my advice to use the light as often as you can, put it through it's paces without worrying about breaking it (though obviously don't deliberately try to do so) and feel better about knowing that if it breaks even in 9 years time then you should get it fixed free of charge. That is why it cost you $60 and the Jetbeam was only $40, you've invested in the future

I just paid a little more for the jetbeam pa40 and it has a life time. Jetbeam is one of a few dealers (as far as i know) that does in house repair and if they can't repair it jetbeam pays for international shipping both ways. BTW, i love the pa40

 

[budynabuick]

I agree. Like you stated a company can go BK or change the policy and then make it retroactive aka not honor the warrantee. Is someone going to get a lawyer over a 5 year-old flashlight? I don't think so. If someone wants to buy a flashlight it should first be based on the merits of the gear item. I only own one 4/Sevens but like it. I think the OP should use the gear in the field a bit and then decide if his expectations were inline with reality. Sometimes first impressions can be wrong both pro or con.

I have learned that is the truth:thumbsup: