Weaponlights, gun-mounted or standalone?

[MacTech]

I recently picked up a used Taurus PT-99AF (A Beretta 92 series with adjustable rear sight, made by Taurus in Brazil**), this is a relatively new version 99, it has the integrated rails on the front of the frame, so I've been considering a gun-mounted weaponlight for it, probably the Streamlight TLR-1

I have other SureFire lights available that I could use in Weaver/Rodgers/SureFire grips, so there's no actual "need" for a weaponlight, but I like the simplicity and convenience of a rail-mount light

here's the question, which is "better", a gun-mounted weaponlight, or a flashlight held in one of the "tactical grip styles"?

from what I can see, the advantages and disadvantages of each are;

WL advantages;
since the light is mounted to the gun, you can keep a more solid grip on the weapon, the light points exactly where the gun points, no complicated/fancy grip styles that could add to confusion in stressful situations

WL disadvantages;
you are pointing a gun at whatever you are illuminating, light can give away your position if left on, throws off the balance of the gun

Standalone advantages;
I already own plenty of lights that could be used as a weaponlight, more versatile , can aim at things other than the target, no need to bring the gun into play unless it's needed

Standalone disadvantages;
more complicated, unfamiliar grip style may add to confusion in stressful environments, cannot use a two handed
grip on the gun, at least not a secure one




**the Taurus 9X series are made on actual Beretta equipment in an actua Beretta-owned factory, when Beretta became an official firearm of the Brazilian military/police, they required Beretta to construct a factory in Brazil and staff it with Brazilian staff, they were trained by Beretta, using actual Beretta manufacturing hardware, when the contract ran out, Beretta sold the factory, equipment, and technology to Taurus, as well as the rights to produce the 9X series pistols, the employees continued on under the employ of Taurus

so, the Taurus 9X series is not a cheap knockoff of a Beretta, it *IS* a Beretta

 

[DaFABRICATA]

I think what is "better" comes down to the operator. You may be comfortable using a handheld while another person may like a weapon mounted system.
The situation you are in and practice comes into play A LOT here.

 

[Sgt. LED]

Weapon mounted for me.

 

[Big Bad]

A few things to consider:

If you mount a light that dosn't quick detach, you may have a hard time finding a holster that fits it, and then your draw could be slow or ackward.

I only recomend a weapons light on a handgun if it is a secondary light and not needed as a primary light. If it's your only light you end with issues of weapons retention (having gun out when you didn't need to), exposing firearm, posibly in public place or pointing a gun at a noise in the trees to find a friendly person in there. Well maybe not friendly any more and now you could be in legal trouble for banishing a firearm even asault or in a law suite.

From a tactical stand point, main reason for a light on a handgun is so the other hand can be free to hold a balistic shield or such. Not for defense, if they are that close you shoud be point shooting or fighting with handgun in retention holster. If you want a great low light system, I like the laser plus light options and it's so worth the money, perfer one's I can keep in a spares pouch and put on if I need it.

And the Taurus is a fine weapon, not quite as smooth out of the box as Baretta, but time fixes that. I had one back in the 80's and loved it.

 

[Lightraven]

I think the original question would be better stated, "Under which circumstances should I use a weapon mounted light rather than a handheld one?"

My answer, based on my training and experience is, "Hardly ever, if at all." In the seven months or so that I've had my Surefire X-300 in my highly active operational area (1 officer involved shooting, 1 officer involved fight resulting in broken bone, attacks, car rammings, non-lethal use on a nightly basis), I've only attached it to my gun once when I came under attack and possibly once when my coworkers came under attack.

Only those circumstances, when I was fully justified having my gun out and up, did I feel justified as a uniformed LEO using a weaponlight (and then only briefly) instead of my handhelds. An American citizen hopefully should be able to live his life without ever being in a situation that justifies a weaponlight being swept across anything other than a shooting range.

That being said, a weaponlight is good to have when it is needed, especially with a long gun. I don't train with my X-300 much, I train with handhelds. Why? 1. It is more likely any shooting I do will happen with a handheld light 2. It takes a lot more practice to shoot well with a handheld light than a weaponlight--a weaponlight is too easy.

Weaponlights aren't common in law enforcement yet because of the common sense issue--the fear that LEOs with poor judgement will use their weaponlights for general flashlight use. Needless to say, this is only 10X more critical with citizens, who won't get chewed out by the lieutenant, they will get arrested.

 

[Justin Case]

Weaponlight has utility for the "ensconced" home defender, where the threat is most likely clearer. Still, having other illumination options is very useful. Remote control room lighting can be used to light up the threat while you stay in the dark. A handheld flashlight can be very useful for general search.

The thing with the weaponlight is IMO it really demands formal training in its proper use. You don't just point your gun at some unconfirmed target and illuminate it with your weaponlight. You don't do that because you don't point your gun period at unconfirmed threats. By violating this safety rule, you've removed your safety redundancy of finger off the trigger and gun pointed in a safe direction.

At a minimum, I would use indirect illumination (e.g., ceiling bounce, or side spill) if I had to use a weaponlight to illuminate someone. You also need the discipline and skill to be able to ID your target before putting your muzzle on the target. I've seen too many shooters in the shoothouse bobbing their guns up and down every time they encounter a target. Gun comes right up, pointing at the target. Then the gun immediately goes back down when the shooter realizes the target was a non-threat. Real, innocent people don't like guns pointed in their faces.

 

[beavo451]

Both. I have a Surefire X300 + DG + Sig 226 and a Surefire 6P + Malkoff M60. If I am in a higher danger situation, I'll have my gun out, but search and look with my handheld. If I encounter somebody, I can transition to a Harris technique or FBI technique and have two lights with individual control on target. Having multiple light sources is disorienting and helps me control suspects.

If I am conducting a building search, my head, eyes, and gun become one. I don't look where my gun isn't pointing and my gun doesn't point where I'm not looking (I'm talking about general directions). If I am conducting a building search, there is a high probability that whoever is inside shouldn't be there. My gun gets pointed at whoever I encounter until I can clear them as a threat. When I encounter obstacles, I can manipulate things with my left hand (open doors, move stuff, talk on the radio, etc.) and keep my gun and illumination pointed towards danger with my right hand. With just a handheld, I see the very common mistake of keeping the light on while trying to manipulate whatever object you are trying to use. This results in light flashing all over the place, illuminating yourself, other searching officers, backlighting other officers, and blinding other officers. Using a weaponlight ensures that I don't directly backlight another officer without lasering thumbsdow)them.

 

[Big Bad]

You don't just point your gun at some unconfirmed target and illuminate it with your weaponlight. You don't do that because you don't point your gun period at unconfirmed threats.

Gotta strongly disagree with that one. If you've got your weapon out, it's for a reason and it should point to where your attention is, as long as your not doing harm to someone on your own team. Neither the law nor use of force matrix distingueshes a difference between having a weapon out while looking at someone or having it pointed at them. If it's for safety I sugest you be prepaired to defend yourself taking your own safety over what compeled you to elevate to that level of force in the first place.

 

[Dennis]

Training, training, training... There are downsides to everything if you don't use it correctly. Get a dedicated light mounted holster.

There is no reason to not have a weapon mounted light if trained and used correctly. You basically give up a huge tactical advantage if you are allowed to use them and don't. Target ID, searching, opening doors, one handed shooting, etc, etc...

Dennis.

 

[customlight]

I too love weapon mounted lights. They are always pointing in the right direction.

 

[E__WOK]

how would you clear a jam when both of your hands are ho
ding something?

 

[Size15's]

how would you clear a jam when both of your hands are ho
ding something?

Discard your handheld flashlight, clear the jam, draw your backup flashlight.

 

[Justin Case]

Gotta strongly disagree with that one. If you've got your weapon out, it's for a reason and it should point to where your attention is, as long as your not doing harm to someone on your own team. Neither the law nor use of force matrix distingueshes a difference between having a weapon out while looking at someone or having it pointed at them. If it's for safety I sugest you be prepaired to defend yourself taking your own safety over what compeled you to elevate to that level of force in the first place.

Do you aim in on every driver you encounter in a car stop?

Universal gun handling rules:
All guns are always loaded.
Never point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.
Keep you finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target.
Know your target and what is behind and beyond it.

Your approach violates rule 2. That's how an otherwise negligent discharge becomes a fatal shooting, because you've removed the safety redundancy.

By the time you've processed your OODA loop for shoot/don't shoot, you could have sidestepped and come up from low ready anyway. If you can challenge from cover, even better.

Really, a solo building search is already a pretty stupid thing to be doing. Getting caught flat-footed in the open, violating universal safety rules, and essentially forcing yourself into making a split-second deadly force decision is not a recipe for success.

 

[Justin Case]

how would you clear a jam when both of your hands are ho
ding something?

Move, let the light hang from its lanyard, and clear the stoppage (e.g., tap-rack), or move and draw your backup gun.

 

[lightemup]

E_Wok there are multiple ways to do this, I will outline the two KISS techniques I would recommend. The most basic and imho surefire way is shoving the light under your armpit. This works for surefires, maglites alike. You don't need any mods, other equipment...

Another is (using a surefire 6p type light) pushing the light further forward in your hand (when holding it in a Harries style) and using your thumb and index finger to tap and rack. Problem there is when SHTF, dexterity goes out the window and sweat doesn't help things either. The more fingers working the slide the better.

IMHO the armpit is the simplest, easiest and most surefire KISS method.

 

[lightemup]

I agree with size15 that a backup handheld is a very good thing, I completely disagree with discarding it. Same thing with mags unless its totally necessary. For me with the back up it is just the old adage: 2 is 1, 1 is none. Lights will malfunction, you will drop it in the sewer or creek, the person you are working with won't have a light etc....

I will concede that when SHTF a Maglite hurtling towards the suspect has a good chance of getting his attention while you're getting the gun running again . I still don't like the idea of discarding it though. For me it indicates a lack of training on the user's part. I am very willing to be challenged on this and shown to be wrong so I can consider adding it to my 'tool box.'

For low light work in general I have some thoughts I would like to share with everyone:

Find a reputable basic pistol shooting course if you haven't already done so, then go do a low light course from a reputable trainer. At the very least get Ken Good's book on low light and read it cover to cover. On a two way range one needs to know the costs and benefits of the tactical use of light...

You will get infinitely more value out of that than all of us talking about it on the internet. On CPF we do like our hardware, nothing wrong with that . Imho in the end its what is between the ears of the person, and the amount of training time they have that is more important than if the light is weapon mounted or not.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Justin Case]

If you have time to "gear" up, then you probably have time to slip a lanyard over your hand to retain the flashlight.

If your hands are too small to hold onto the light while racking the slide of a semiauto for a tap-rack stoppage recovery, then let the light hang from its lanyard. Otherwise, use your pinky and ring fingers to hold the light, and use the other fingers to grasp the slide to rack it. This is when the slimmer body diameter of something like a SureFire L4 vs. 6P comes in handy.

 

[lightemup]

Mactech, to your original question: In my opinion get both

Its been covered by the other guys above about when to use the weaponlight or not. A good rule of thumb is a mounted weaponlight does not get pointed at anything that the gun would not be aimed at (i.e. willing to destroy).... A handheld light can be pointed at any Tom, ****, or Hariette ...

I've read your post, but I don't think you've told us what your intended use is?

 

[Big Bad]

Question- Do you aim in on every driver you encounter in a car stop?

Answer- of course not, I didn't draw my weapon 99% of the time, but if I draw my weapon it's going straight into felony stop procedures and bet your *** I'm pointed at the car.

Look, I don't know where you get your information, and I'm not trying to be defensive or push my point of view, but the "rules" you are going by are designed for sport shooting, and not defensive tactics. Maybe things have changed, but I spent more than a decade in the Navy to the mid 90's, did joint task forces with special warfare units in the first gulf war, Panama, Haiti, Cuba and some other stuff. Did joint operations with the Coast Guard sizing drug boats, graduated "Top Gun" from my military police academy, was the DTI for may base, with lots of certifications, and played major roles in training all the base MP's, reactionary forces, and often assisted with local PD, state and federal agencies, multiple SRT's, etc. Our base had concurrent jurisdiction so we had to be and were very well versed in Florida LE practices as well as Military and Federl. I've been through training with all branches of service, FHP, State Police, ATF, FBI, HK, Surefire, SAS, FP and the list goes on.

Not saying I'm Rambo or anything, but until I got a nasty injury that pushed me out of the service, this was my life for more than ten years. I was the go to guy and trainer for lots of PD's when they had technical questions, helped rewrite some of their SOP's in fact, I've been an expert witness twice defending cops who've been in shootings.

What you are suggesting contradicts every piece of training I've had regardless of the organization. You use reactionary gap, cover, concealment, a good stance, follow the use of force matrix, but if the time comes to draw a handgun, it goes where the threat is or most likely to come from. Low ready is pointing your weapon where you expect the threat to come from. Basically, if you don't have something to point your weapon at, there is no reason for it to be out and you've violated a major rule of weapons retention, by escalating a would be wrestling match with an unarmed person into a deadly force situation.

Where do they teach you to point your weapon? Your feet? The ceiling? Where you are not looking? Or that neat trick where you hold it behind your thigh out of sight with no leverage should it get grabbed. These are all bad habits we worked to get cops out of. I hope it has changed, but in my day a large number of cops were shot with their own weapons, usually because they had them out and ended up in a wrestling match with a person who did not bring a firearm to the fight.

If I'm off base, I'm all ears, I'd love to hear the source of your training and the reasoning behind it, it just sounds way off base from my experience.

If your department is teaching you not to point a weapon at any area where you have not identified what is there, and verify it's a threat before you bring your weapon to point, I'm fascinated, horrified and amazed.

 

[Justin Case]

Those "sport" rules come from Jeff Cooper, API/Gunsite. If you didn't know that, I have to wonder.

Low ready does not mean you necessarily have the gun at extension. Low ready refers to a muzzle angled down direction. You can hold the gun in retention, muzzle depressed. Extremely difficult to disarm, doesn't lead with the gun when moving, etc etc.

Of course I don't point my gun at my feet. Rule 2. I also don't point it at people without justification.

Why would I point my gun at the ceiling?

Why would I hide the gun behind my thigh?

I'm sure that these FBI agents also thought they were high-speed, low-drag enough to violate Rule 2 "safely":

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-fbireview28,1,3670028.story