What's the best knife for self-defense?

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

More generally,

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

Has some incredibly relevant things to say about knife fighting. I don't want to summarize and give the wrong impression, but if you're not going to go over there and read it, the summary is "knife fighting is incredibly bad for your physical and mental health, even if you are an expert, and should be avoided at all costs"

With extensive justification and experience.

Sobering stuff.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

[ QUOTE ]
js said:
This was mentioned already a couple times, but it still bears repeating and I didn't catch any reason why it isn't the best option:

A CANE OR WALKING STICK. ???

Why not? I am a complete novice at any kind of self defense and I have no training in knife or stick fighting, so keep that in mind. Take it as a question. But from what I've read on KnifeForums, there are some pretty good arguments that a walking stick is far better for self defense than a knife because,


3. Long reach.
4. Not as deadly but every bit as effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's stop there for a moment. "Long reach" isn't necessarily always a positive. Stop thinking about martial arts type duels and high school type mutually-agreed combat, and think about real-life defensive situations. Many times -- maybe most times -- the attack will start at close range. There, a long-reach weapon will already have its effectiveness very impaired. A walking stick is great if you can be assured any attack will start from a few feet away. A knife's strong point in the self-defense world arguably is at much shorter -- and probably more realistic -- range.

That addresses your "every bit as effective" statement. I'd change that to say: "more effective at long range, much less effective close-in where real-life attacks often start." Maybe it's a good idea to carry both if you have the luxury.

[ QUOTE ]

5. Can be used with no training in an intuitive manner, but will become very much more potent as a defensive tool with a bit of training.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same is very true of a knife.

I don't think anyone should be thinking of a knfie as a magic self-defense totem, the perfect solution for all situations and ranges. It's one solution that works -- and works better than anything else -- for certain types of problems. IMO.

Which brings up this quote from Clarky:
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO knives are a very bad idea for self defense. You have to get too close to an attacker to defend yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, again, I think it's a delusion that you'll necessarily be choosing that range at which you may have to defend yourself. OFten, the attacker finds a way to get "too close" before he starts. I would again, argue perhaps that that's a fairly common mode. I'd go one step further and say that any self-defense strategy that doesn't include extremely effective solutions for close-range confrontations is a strategy that isn't real-world. Probably work well for sparring in the dojo though.

Joe

 

[DOCSMYNAME]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Thought I would chime in and give my 2 cents FWIW. I am in complete agreement on the canes as noted in above post. You can inflict a disabling soft tissue injury and limit the possibility of a fatal act. It is much easier to hit strike someone a little vs. cutting or shotting them a little. Beware of using knives with odd names such as impaler, slasher, punk kutter (LOL). The dark evil green and black knives, and even custom fighters and folders. "your honor this man paid $576 to have a tactical Punk Kutter knife custom made so he could inflict the most serious of injuries to my poor poor client who was ONLY looking for a short term personal loan" A trial lawyer would have a hey day with any of the above items re. knives.

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

At close range, you hold the stick at each end with one hand near each end and use it for jabbing. Usually enough to open up some distance. Fairbairn suggests nailing people under the jaw, but he was trying to teach people to kill.

Scenario modeling is important. Marc Young (linked above) talks about the difference between fighting and self-defence. Again, to risk mis-summarizing a sophisticated and deep case, my read is he says "fights you try to win, but self-defence you try to survive - and that basically means running away".

The last time I was in any kind of "self-defence" situation was 12 years ago when two very-messed-up drugged-out girls reeled out of an alley, and one of them started waving a hypodermic in my direction. The other girl pulled her back before she got within three feet of me.

My martial arts training was *exactly* the wrong thing for that situation, as I was standing my ground, focusing on intercepting the weapon, and planning to retaliate. That was incredibly stupid and entirely a product of mistrained reflexes: I thought I was in a fight which I should win, where as in fact I was in a self-defence situation which I had to survive, and I could certainly run faster than they could. I didn't even think of running and, frankly, if she'd kept coming would I have got out of the situation without a needlestick injury and possible HIV infection? Probably not.

The correct response was "flee" and my fighting mindset was completely inappropriate and wrong.

I routinely see the same kind of thinking in my friends many of whom are extremely formiddable practitioners and, I think, in a lot more danger in an actual situation than people with less invested in being hard men. One of them, a high-dan karate instructor, damn near got himself shot by police who were checking people with his profile near where a crime had been committed, just because he radiated such physical menace they were afraid to get near him without drawing their guns.

So back to self defence weapons.

Threat modeling? Are you afraid of being mugged? Do you have vindictive enemies? What's the threat this weapon is meant to counter?

If you're in any real danger, you need to move away from it. If you can't move away from it, you need a gun, pure and simple. I'm not sure anybody can debate that a gun is a significantly better weapon than a knife in most scenarios.

If you're not in that kind of danger, the "stand and fight" error I made in the story above is a really common one for even experienced people once they have a weapon in hand, I've read. Are you sure your hide isn't going to be safer unarmed, where you're not going to believe you have a better option than running?

I've been in a goodly number of dangerous situations for a sedantary computer programmer - I rode freight trains, slept rough in Golden Gate park in SF (which is a zoo, let me tell you), did all kinds of crazy poop. I've sat around camp fires with at least two murderers. Not like being a city cop, but I've at least laid eyes on genuinely dangerous people who could have hurt me, and had hurt people in the past.

I don't think there's any weapon or simple training which could really have protected me the few times I crossed paths with really dangerous people. If they were just messin' with me in a fight, perhaps I could have come across as not being a total wuss and that might have helped, but if they actually wanted to hurt me, they'd have come better armed than whatever they thought I had, it would have been an ambush, and there's no way I'd survive.

It's really worth thinking about. The reality is that, in almost all "not just recreational fighting" situations, the assailant has taken careful preparatory measures and believes they'll certainly win before they attack.

A knife, or a stick, doesn't help all that much because a potential opponent is likely to over-match whatever weapon you're carrying, if they attack at all.

Anyway, this is far too long. Just thought I'd pass on some of what I've been thinking about recently!

Mup.

 

[clarky]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

in the real world 99.9% of the time I will see or hear them coming and put the distance I desire between us. if I couldn't then the unthinkable might have to be done, or if they do somehow catch me completely off guard comply with everything and get away the very first chance. that is real world per experiences and several leo friends.

 

[js]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

So Joe,

(and this is not a rhetorical question)

wouldn't a surprise close range attack make grabbing and deploying a knife hard or even impossible to do? If we are talking wrestling range, then the attacker could use that time to put you in some kind of hold or pin. If we're talking trapping range, you might get a nasty elbow or forehead to the face and a finger in the eye and a box on the ears, all before you get your knife out of it's sheath and ready to use.

Or so I surmise. I don't have any experience with these matters.

I think my general question is this: if we're talking a surprise close range attack, then your best weapon is going to be hand to hand combat, and if we're talking a farther range than that, then isn't a cane in the hand worth two knives and a billy club on the belt?

In any case, I agree with Muppet that even on psychological grounds alone I will never carry a knife with the intent to use it for self defense.

And just to address one of your points above, for me personally use of a stick is far, far more intuitive than a knife. Perhaps I was a jo master in a former life. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[js]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

[ QUOTE ]
Muppet said:
At close range, you hold the stick at each end with one hand near each end and use it for jabbing. Usually enough to open up some distance. Fairbairn suggests nailing people under the jaw, but he was trying to teach people to kill.

Scenario modeling is important. Marc Young (linked above) talks about the difference between fighting and self-defence. Again, to risk mis-summarizing a sophisticated and deep case, my read is he says "fights you try to win, but self-defence you try to survive - and that basically means running away".

The last time I was in any kind of "self-defence" situation was 12 years ago when two very-messed-up drugged-out girls reeled out of an alley, and one of them started waving a hypodermic in my direction. The other girl pulled her back before she got within three feet of me.

My martial arts training was *exactly* the wrong thing for that situation, as I was standing my ground, focusing on intercepting the weapon, and planning to retaliate. That was incredibly stupid and entirely a product of mistrained reflexes: I thought I was in a fight which I should win, where as in fact I was in a self-defence situation which I had to survive, and I could certainly run faster than they could. I didn't even think of running and, frankly, if she'd kept coming would I have got out of the situation without a needlestick injury and possible HIV infection? Probably not.

The correct response was "flee" and my fighting mindset was completely inappropriate and wrong.

I routinely see the same kind of thinking in my friends many of whom are extremely formiddable practitioners and, I think, in a lot more danger in an actual situation than people with less invested in being hard men. One of them, a high-dan karate instructor, damn near got himself shot by police who were checking people with his profile near where a crime had been committed, just because he radiated such physical menace they were afraid to get near him without drawing their guns.

So back to self defence weapons.

Threat modeling? Are you afraid of being mugged? Do you have vindictive enemies? What's the threat this weapon is meant to counter?

If you're in any real danger, you need to move away from it. If you can't move away from it, you need a gun, pure and simple. I'm not sure anybody can debate that a gun is a significantly better weapon than a knife in most scenarios.

If you're not in that kind of danger, the "stand and fight" error I made in the story above is a really common one for even experienced people once they have a weapon in hand, I've read. Are you sure your hide isn't going to be safer unarmed, where you're not going to believe you have a better option than running?

I've been in a goodly number of dangerous situations for a sedantary computer programmer - I rode freight trains, slept rough in Golden Gate park in SF (which is a zoo, let me tell you), did all kinds of crazy poop. I've sat around camp fires with at least two murderers. Not like being a city cop, but I've at least laid eyes on genuinely dangerous people who could have hurt me, and had hurt people in the past.

I don't think there's any weapon or simple training which could really have protected me the few times I crossed paths with really dangerous people. If they were just messin' with me in a fight, perhaps I could have come across as not being a total wuss and that might have helped, but if they actually wanted to hurt me, they'd have come better armed than whatever they thought I had, it would have been an ambush, and there's no way I'd survive.

It's really worth thinking about. The reality is that, in almost all "not just recreational fighting" situations, the assailant has taken careful preparatory measures and believes they'll certainly win before they attack.

A knife, or a stick, doesn't help all that much because a potential opponent is likely to over-match whatever weapon you're carrying, if they attack at all.

Anyway, this is far too long. Just thought I'd pass on some of what I've been thinking about recently!

Mup.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, really, really good points, mup. Thanks very much!

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Sinjz,

I would highly recommend Jeff Cooper's Principals of presonal defense. While Cooper's name is normally associated with combat pistolcraft, this 56 page pamphlet is must reading for anyone contemplating self defense, with or without any weapon. It is not a HowTo at all. It is all about MINDSET. I first read it 30 years ago and it is brilliant. It will give you the fundamentals you will need to begin to answer all of your questions about self defense. It is a classic and well worth the price. Cooper is a real PRO. Can anyone else on this thread chime in on this pamphlet?

[ QUOTE ]
Muppet:
My conclusion from what I've read is that, basically, knife fights have three basic conclusions:

1> You pull a knife, the other guy backs off, you put it away again.


[/ QUOTE ]
1> In most defensive situations the attacker should NEVER see the knife. He should feel it. (I'm not trying to be cute) One must move quickly and decisively. Don't worry about the fate of the one that initiates the attack. He's not worried about you. Your only goal should be to go home to your family. Don't bluff. It pumps up his adrenaline and takes away any supprise that you may have used to your advantage. (And yes, suprise is an element of self defense.) If you're not going to use it, don't pull it out.

To this end I prefer a custom sheath that will, in many cases, allow removal of the knife without making motions that would normally be associated with drawing a weapon. My favorite sheath would be an upside down thumb-break on my belt, right above my wallet. A short, rigid knife not only comes out quickly without telegraphing the action, but the observant may foresee a potential impending threat; 'quarter out' with your hands on your hips and have your hand on the grip and thumb on the break -- and be fully ready to act without your posture giving you away.

[ QUOTE ]
2> You pull a knife, injure or kill the other person severely, and wind up in court.

[/ QUOTE ]
2> Someone said it is always better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. Works for me.

[ QUOTE ]

3> You pull a knife and wind up in hospital or dead.

[/ QUOTE ]
3> Statistically the most dangerous thing to do when attacked is be passive. Because of my health, running is not an option. There are also citizenship issues about the cost to society incurred by not resisting violence -- that used to be more commonly discussed and understood. I also think that there are other options to this statement -- all parties pulling knives do not automatically "wind up in hospital or dead."

Life is risky, and messy...and no one ever gets out of it alive.

YMMV

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Again, guys, threat modeling please. If you think a weapon is useful, let's have some information about what kinds of context you think it would be useful in. An M16 is a superiour self defence weapon, at least according to the Army, but hardly EDC in NYC.

A "surprise close-range attack" is when somebody beans you with a 2x4 and you don't even see it coming, or sticks a knife in your kindneys. People who're trying to kill you aren't going to close in and threaten, they're going to nail you blindside. If somebody "comes up to you and grabs you" you're probably in a bar fight and at little real risk - if they wanted really hurt you, they'd have stabbed you not grabbed you.

If people aren't trying to kill you, what are they doing? In a robbery, is handing over your wallet a better option than getting into a knife fight? Probably in almost all cases. I don't have field experience or statistics, so this is likely inaccurate, but my guess is that most muggings end non-violently once the goods are handed over.

What's left? If it's not an attempt to kill you, or a mugging, that leaves bar fights and real outliers like home invasions, which happen very, very, very rarely.

A lot of what we think we know about fighting comes from two places: martial arts and the military. In the martial arts context, you're looking at "Chinese Army Combatives, c. 13th Century". In the millitary context, it's the up-to-date version. In martial arts, there's no lethal force - how many martial arts feature neck strikes and eye-poking? And in the military stuff, there's only lethal force: the assumption is made that, for both parties, this is a fight to the death.

Neither martial nor military models are remotely close to what actual self-defence situations seem to entail, which is carefully estimated risk on the part of the attacker, and simple "get me out of here" on the part of the target.

Self defence seems to be a very different issue: the problem is not winning fights, but not being in them. It's not overcoming criminals, but avoiding them, removing reasons for them to be violent, and in the last resort, using violence to open an escape route. Again, I'm not an expert, and what you're hearing here is mostly me retreading Marc Young's stuff through my own experience and filters. I've seen some dangerous people up close, but nobody's tried to hurt me since high school, you know? What do I know? I haven't been there, I'm just speculating on what I've read and a little experience in related areas.

All of this is completely different for cops and criminals: for those folks, violence and survival are professions, and graduated force is a core part of the curriculum. But if you're not a soldier, a cop or a robber, I'm not sure that their skills are really appropriate for the scenarios you're likely to be in.

Real violence in this society is done with guns, pure and simple. The elaborate martial arts were from a time before effective firearms, when there really was an incredible virtue in being able to fight very, very well hand to hand: a Samuri was the equivalent of a tank - ordinary infantry would run for their lives, believing they had no chance of survival in an engagement!

But after the gun, it's very different. Anybody who's serious about doing violence is going to have one, and odds-are if they're really serious about doing harm to you, they're going to shoot you before you even know they're there. Ayoob has a bunch of stuff about what happens in gun fights which is worth reading if you're thinking of a defensive firearm, but I don't live in a juristiction where I could carry, and I have a nearly-zero-risk lifestyle, so what's it matter to me?

I guess what I'm saying is this: for my own purposes, I can imagine almost no scenario where having a weapon of any kind handy is going to increase my safety. I do carry a knife. I could use it to hurt somebody, but it's not designed for that purpose. It does make me feel a little more comfortable, but I identify that as the same kind of comfort I get from a roaring fire: largely archaic and rooted in evolutionary history

We're by-and-large pretty safe in the USA, excepting those of us who live in large cities in which you can't carry a concealed handgun. Even there, the actual instances of people being harmed even if they're robbed are fairly low. EDC self defence weapons are, I'd say, more psychological than practical for the civilian population.

I still carry, but I don't kid myself: I do it because I like it, and for no other reason.

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Sub_Umbra - could you source the statistics indicating that being passive is more dangerous than counter attacking?

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Btw, I'm kinda brain dumping here. I've been considering taking up martial arts again, and so really doing some reading and thinking on the subject, and I'm kinda putting my thoughts into words for the first time ;-)

Rape is the other thing worth discussing in a self-defence context, but again, the psychological component seems to be vastly, vastly more important than actual hand-to-hand in the vast majority of cases. And anti-rape training seems to be a subject in-and-of itself...

 

[Bo_Smith]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

[ QUOTE ]
JackBlades said:
Keep in mind that if you are ever involved in a knife fight, you WILL get cut. BADLY.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mindset and attitude might be the most important factors in considering self-defense. I am not advocating deluding oneself; neither am I recommending adopting a defeatist attitude. I am not going to get ruiniously cut. I am going to cut the other Sob first. Developing a positive, winning attitude is very important to self-defense.

[ QUOTE ]
Sinjz said:
Can anyone tell me how effective an Inova X5T would be as a defensive weapon? Anyone? Seriously. What are some possible alternatives?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pocket stick methods have been mentioned by a few in this thread already. I cannot advocate them strongly enough. Use a stout flashlight as a fistload, especially for hammerfist type blows. They also raise no eyebrows with sheeple, nor law enforcement. I've taken a streamlight stinger on more plane trips since 9/11 than I can easily count. I think it makes a decent palm stick, but I'll replace it with an Inova T3, when they come out (LED lights are probably sturdier for pocket stick applications). I am also a proponant of the cane. I have also carried a Livesay combat cane onto multiple airliners and into courthouses without problems. I find the cane less effective in the clinch and other grappling situations. This is where a short, stout fixed blade knife really shines.

[ QUOTE ]
Joe Talmadge said:"Long reach" isn't necessarily always a positive. Stop thinking about martial arts type duels and high school type mutually-agreed combat, and think about real-life defensive situations. Many times -- maybe most times -- the attack will start at close range. There, a long-reach weapon will already have its effectiveness very impaired. A walking stick is great if you can be assured any attack will start from a few feet away. A knife's strong point in the self-defense world arguably is at much shorter -- and probably more realistic -- range.

[/ QUOTE ]

My sentiments exactly.

If you don't want to spend the cash on a Shivworks Disciple or Clinch Pick, you could always opt for a Cold Steel Culloden or similiar blade. Carry it strong side IWB, deploy to reverse grip, and give the bad guy your best impression of a Singer sewing machine.

Sinjz also said:
[ QUOTE ]
Sinjz said:Also the training under Carl Cestari's is what I was refering to. This guys is a super master fighter black belt type guy. I think that level of training is currently above anything most of us would be able to do right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't know Mr. Cestari, and have never trained with him. But I do know that the techniques he teaches are simple. They are easily learned, and easily applied. I imagine that after a month of training with him one will be able to do very well in a street encounter. I don't know if he is taking students, but if I lived in the New York, Jersey, Pennsy area I would seriously consider training with him.

EDITED to correct quotation

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

[ QUOTE ]
Muppet:
Again, guys, threat modeling please. If you think a weapon is useful, let's have some information about what kinds of context you think it would be useful in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Situational awareness is of the utmost import in any potentially defensive situation. If your situational awareness is good enough you can even avoid most confrontations. For those instances you can't avoid, situational awareness can be a force multiplyer. I won't give graphic examples because it wouldn't be appropriate, but believe me, a ridgid knife secreted in the hand and ready to go, held by someone who is calm and ready to explode into action is not the same situation as having a four inch Buck folder in your sheath and not even knowing that you are in danger.

Situational awareness will help compensate for other factors that are out of balance like your age, your health and the number of potential attackers. Nothing is certain. I can tell you that the way most people handle guns is stupid. (Good and bad people) They assume that they have everything under control just because they have a gun. Without getting graphic I can tell you that if I think you stink and I can get "ready" for you, there's a good chance that when you pull your revolver you'll be in for a real suprise.

My earlier post presumes that you have highy developed situational awareness AND that you are not encumbered by modern cultures' distain of violence, even when the life of you and your famley is at stake. I assume you will be prepared to take all legal actions in this endeavor.

Whenever someone says that self defense is a lost cause, they are right -- but only about themselves. Anyone who does not believe he/she can defend himself cannot. Nothing is for certain, but if you have the right tools and the right attitude you will have the luxury to decide what course of action to take. Remember, the tools and preparation don't require you to take any action at any time -- they only allow you to put options into play that you wouldn't have otherwise.

While threat modeling is always valid to a certain extent, in self defense things are not always so cut and dried (no pun). In some situations time may be on MY side. I may be able to wait for one of them to make a mistake. Just one mistake, for a fraction of a second, and it may all turn around. If I wipe one out, the others may run away. Even if they kill me, so what. They might have killed me anyway. I don't have a safe conduct pass through life. There are thousands of great accounts of people successfully defending themselves and it makes for interesting, thought provokeing reading. The ones who fail or don't even try often have their storys writen by someone else.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

[ QUOTE ]
Muppet:
Sub_Umbra - could you source the statistics indicating that being passive is more dangerous than counter attacking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna go look.

As a stop-gap reply (and not at all meaning to be snotty) before I go, 911 comes to mind. Right after the event I did some research and found that in no case was the ratio of passengers to hijackers LESS than ten to one. These people (for the most part) were so passified by cultural propaganda that they were immobilized by the terrs even though the terrs were always outnumbered by atleast 10 to 1 and the terrs had knives with only 1 inch blades. So there were 3000+ plus THAT one day that were killed, in a large part, by passivity.

I'll be back.

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Sub_Umbra - the "box cutters" thing is mythology, and as far as I know, nobody knows what happened on those planes. Probably a bomb threat, and I believe one of the phone calls mentions that they stabbed somebody, but I don't remember the details. Many years of "comply with hijackers or they'll blow your plane up in the air" training worked against us.

"Situational awareness is of the utmost import in any potentially defensive situation."

- the question is *what* potentially defensive situations are you in? The tools have to fit the job.

Without being grounded in context, a lot of survival and defence thinking is open-ended: "anything could happen, therefore I must carry a pump shotgun, a long gun, a 1911 and two knifes."

What's the threat model? Really effective defence seems to come from knowing what you're defending against. If you're a bouncer, you've got different needs to a cop, to a soldier, to a young woman, to an every day citizen.

You haven't grounded the threat model. When I was riding freight trains, the threat model was that somebody would throw me out of an open box car after beating me senseless when I was sleeping, or that I'd get ambushed by multiple armed opponents.

I didn't do that for very long before deciding that there was no reasonable defence against psychotic old army rangers who still pulled the eyelets out of their boots... so I was bloody careful about who I hung out with, who I seemed to be, and I didn't stay in that situation very long. Long enough to get a look at the world from that POV, but not long enough to get into trouble.

If I'd been there longer, I'd have fallen back on the Hobo Three: a stout stick, a knife, and a can of bear repellent. But in that world, and it's an excessively dangerous and violent one, people fight for status or pride or fun, and those fights you can win. But if somebody wants to screw you up and take your stuff, there's precious little defence because it's all ambush or attack while you sleep.

I'm not belittling anybody elses approach, I'm just saying that, from what I've seen, self defence weapons are very seldom used by ordinary civilians, and people in really dangerous lifestyles are more worried about ambush by multiple armed foes than what kind of knife to carry.

It's a concern, yes, to be armed to suit the problems you have, but I don't think most of us have problems which a fixed blade will solve, defensively speaking. $0.02

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

[ QUOTE ]
Muppet:
Sub_Umbra - could you source the statistics indicating that being passive is more dangerous than counter attacking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not found anything yet. There are about a dozen recent FIREARM USAGE studies that have some interesting implications along these lines but I'll admit that it is not black and white.

Dr. Gary Kleck, criminologist at Florida State University in Tallahassee has come up with data that reinforces other data that private firearms in the States stop crime 2.5 million times each year. Survey summary and interview with Dr. Kleck

While I haven't found a study that exactly proves my claim that passivity is the most dangerous option during a crime, some interesting points can be drawn from the survey.

First of all, I think we could agree that using a firearm is not passive. Up to 2.5 million crimes per year are stopped that would otherwise have come to fruition. That is a lot of crime. Often the crime is prevented without a shot being fired. (which really skews the statistics) While it's hard to put numbers on this, these crimes run the gammut of murder, rape, armed robbery, carjacking -- and lots of others that usually are pretty rough on the passive.

There are also a few catagories of crimes where a secondary crime scene is involved. Rape and carjacking come to mind. While I have no figures to prove it, I contend that the only reason that a victim is ever removed to a secondary crime scene is because there are too many people about for him to accomplish what he wants at the primary crime scene. I believe passivity in those cases is even more dangerous than the norm.

I'm sorry I can't do any better on this. Maybe we'll just have to disagree.

EDIT: spellin

 

[BlindedByTheLite]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

[ QUOTE ]
Muppet said:
Let me second the cane/walking stick option. The big distinction (for me) is that you can fairly reliably whack somebody without a serious risk of killing them, unlike a knife. There's almost nowhere on a human body you can stab or slash somebody and not risk hitting an artery or some other vital system but you can take a stick and flail away and, as long as you steer clear of the head, it's unlikely you'll do more than break a bone.

[/ QUOTE ]
this reminds me of old tanjojutsu classes i had to take in my 5th year of wing chun..
it might do anyone some good, who's thinking about using a cane/walking stick to do a search on tanjojutsu and consider taking some lessons..

Muppet, i also noticed you linking Mr. Young's opinions on the subject..
i find myself somewhat disagreeing with him..
when he talks about "it"..
if you're properly trained and you have "it" vs. someone without proper training who has "it", then the trained person is gonna come out on top 10 times out of 10.
he really doesn't even address that scenario.. he only addresses two random ppl fighting and one of them having "it"..

but either way, knife or cane or walking stick, you still need training to use it properly.. in fact, i'd say even more-so with a cane or walking stick.. it's really not as simple as wailing on someone with it..

a knife would make more sense to me.. you need alot less training/luck to use one effectively in a self-defense situation.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

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Muppet:
Sub_Umbra - the "box cutters" thing is mythology, and as far as I know, nobody knows what happened on those planes.

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That's probably true.

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Muppet:
Probably a bomb threat, and I believe one of the phone calls mentions that they stabbed somebody, but I don't remember the details. Many years of "comply with hijackers or they'll blow your plane up in the air" training worked against us.

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Right again. The whole "comply with hijackers or they'll blow your plane up in the air" thing has been counter-productive for 30 years. Were it not for that doctrine 911 wouldn't have happened that way. It could not happen that way today.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Jim,

I'm actually pleased this thread is taking a little bit of a turn from the characteristics of the weapons, to the situations you might have to use them in ...

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js said:
wouldn't a surprise close range attack make grabbing and deploying a knife hard or even impossible to do? If we are talking wrestling range, then the attacker could use that time to put you in some kind of hold or pin. If we're talking trapping range, you might get a nasty elbow or forehead to the face and a finger in the eye and a box on the ears, all before you get your knife out of it's sheath and ready to use.

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Jim, in a surprise close range attack, if you don't already have the weapon deployed (more on this soon), you have to work with empty hands. It's a no-brainer that anyone serious about self defense should have a serious empty-hands defense, IMO. You may need to go empty hands to make time and space to draw your weapon, or you may need to finish the fight empty-handed. No doubt about that.

On the other hand, the knife is deployable in many situations in a standing grapple or in a ground grapple,and the knife is a fearsome force multiplier in those situations (unlike a big stick). Two situations that can have pretty high probability of happening when you start empty-handed (versus the probability of always keeping any potential threat 4 feet away from you). In drills and sparring you can see how well the knife works here.

That said, I wasn't really talking about a surprise close range attack. It may be sudden, but probably not a surprise. A common situation is to work up close with an "interview" or a simple question about the time or directions, but if you are aware, you can easily palm a knife and have it ready. In that case, the knife is already deployed.

In short, stick works great if bad guy is starting 4 feet away and it's clear he's attacking. If he works in closer, which isn't all that hard, knife is a way better solution, works very well in a grapple, etc.

Empty hands at close quarters are important for self defense. Weapons may make your defense more formidable, especially against superior size, power, numbers, experience. I think it's irresponsible to suggest a long-range weapon is a suitable replacement for a short-range one, when close quarters defense is the more common scenario. An adjunct, yes, but not a replacement. I think a stinger or other close-quarters weapon is a more reasonable replacement for a knife, though not as effective. Sticks are for something else entirely.

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I think my general question is this: if we're talking a surprise close range attack, then your best weapon is going to be hand to hand combat, and if we're talking a farther range than that, then isn't a cane in the hand worth two knives and a billy club on the belt?


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Hopefully, I cleared that up. At long range, stick sounds good. At close range (let's take the "surprise" out for now), knife is often a better solution, plus way more likely to be carried, for most people. Knife can be palmed and ready to go in a situation that is ambiguous but bad guy is trying to get close (i.e., probably the majority of situations). Knife can be drawn and used effectively in a grapple, etc. In a true surprise -- you dropped your awareness -- you're at empty hands.

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In any case, I agree with Muppet that even on psychological grounds alone I will never carry a knife with the intent to use it for self defense.

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Now that I can live with. That's a very personal decision, you need to make the best one for you. If you can't use a knife psychologically, then don't carry one. But by all means, replace it with something else that's useable at close range and is legal in your area -- perhaps a stinger, etc. Stick is great, too, but does not replace a close-quarters force multipler, it supplements it!

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

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Bo_Smith said:
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Joe Talmadge said:"Long reach" isn't necessarily always a positive. Stop thinking about martial arts type duels and high school type mutually-agreed combat, and think about real-life defensive situations. Many times -- maybe most times -- the attack will start at close range. There, a long-reach weapon will already have its effectiveness very impaired. A walking stick is great if you can be assured any attack will start from a few feet away. A knife's strong point in the self-defense world arguably is at much shorter -- and probably more realistic -- range.

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My sentiments exactly.

If you don't want to spend the cash on a Shivworks Disciple or Clinch Pick, you could always opt for a Cold Steel Culloden or similiar blade. Carry it strong side IWB, deploy to reverse grip, and give the bad guy your best impression of a Singer sewing machine.

You also said:

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Also the training under Carl Cestari's is what I was refering to. This guys is a super master fighter black belt type guy. I think that level of training is currently above anything most of us would be able to do right now.

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I disagree wholeheartedly.

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Bo, note that the context makes it appear that I made the statements about Cestari, but I did not. I'm properly quoted only in the first paragraph about "long reach".