What's the best knife for self-defense?

[Joe Talmadge]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

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Muppet said:
At close range, you hold the stick at each end with one hand near each end and use it for jabbing. Usually enough to open up some distance. Fairbairn suggests nailing people under the jaw, but he was trying to teach people to kill.

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Holding the stick with both hands means that if stop one arm, everything stops for a second -- and I have both hands to swing. We can go counter for counter here, but it's hard to escape the conclusion that a knife is more formidable at close range (I never said the stick was completely useless, or at least didn't mean to, but it's not in the same league as a knife there).

Here's a quick thought experiment: A guy attacks you, he's a foot away. Now that he's in bad breath range, imagine he's got a 4" cane. Now imagine the cane is gone and he's got a knife. Which one gave you the more primal fear? The bladed weapon will be the harder to deal with, and gut instinct will have given you a chill when you thought of the knife, that the big stick did not (at least so close in).

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The last time I was in any kind of "self-defence" situation was 12 years ago when two very-messed-up drugged-out girls reeled out of an alley, and one of them started waving a hypodermic in my direction. The other girl pulled her back before she got within three feet of me.

My martial arts training was *exactly* the wrong thing for that situation, as I was standing my ground, focusing on intercepting the weapon, and planning to retaliate. That was incredibly stupid and entirely a product of mistrained reflexes: I thought I was in a fight which I should win, where as in fact I was in a self-defence situation which I had to survive, and I could certainly run faster than they could.


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No argument. Running can be the best solution.

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If you're in any real danger, you need to move away from it. If you can't move away from it, you need a gun, pure and simple. I'm not sure anybody can debate that a gun is a significantly better weapon than a knife in most scenarios.

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Unfortunately, it's not always possible to run. For example, you have family to protect, or because you think they might be able to run faster than you, or any other number of reasons. And your alternative, carrying a gun, isn't practical for many of us, either. Luckily, your contention that "you need a gun" is just plain wrong. A gun is a great solution, but successful self defense can be executed empty handed or with any number of other weapons. You do need to start with a mindset that you'll prevail regardless, rather than "uh oh, I need a gun" and curl up. A gun would be nice to have, but in many situations, you don't need one, nor is running away the only other alternative.

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If you're not in that kind of danger, the "stand and fight" error I made in the story above is a really common one for even experienced people once they have a weapon in hand, I've read. Are you sure your hide isn't going to be safer unarmed, where you're not going to believe you have a better option than running?

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Good point about proper decision-making, and not being weapon-focused.Problem-solving under pressure is difficult.

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A knife, or a stick, doesn't help all that much because a potential opponent is likely to over-match whatever weapon you're carrying, if they attack at all.

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I'm not willing to simply concede the point that a potential oponent is likely to over-match whatever weapon I'm carrying. Granted, there are bad-asses out there who can probably take me no matter what I'm carrying. But there are a whole whole lot of scumbags who could take me empty handed, but wouldn't fare so well if I were armed. That's why I train, to increase the number of scumbags on that side of the equation.

 

[Bo_Smith]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Joe, that was quoting one of the others. I'll edit it to add his name.

Sorry.

-Bo

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Joe,

First off, the difference between knife range and stick range is one step. Anybody who's ambushing you at knife range is, in all probability, going to cold **** you or stab you. After you go down, you can draw your knife if you're able, but any situation that goes south with somebody right in your face is a bad deal to start with. I'm really not sure it's a realistic threat model.

Sure, it might be a bar fight, but in that situation are you willing to stab somebody? I probably am not. The risks of escalating a fight to life-and-death just aren't justified by the chance of victory or avoiding a beating.

Different matter if somebody's trying to kill me, but that's a very different scenario.

Once out of blade range, stick wins most of the time, and it's only one step. Can't argue portability etc, but in a straight head-to-head setting, I'd rather be the guy holding the stick. Others may have different opinions on the relative merits of the two, but with my skills, that's how it is for me.

I'd probably be more worred by a knife if I was unarmed, but head to head, I'd take the stick.

BUT!!! More fundamentally, the question is "who, and where are these scumbags of whom you speak?"

That's a big question: who's going to be hassling you? I don't know where you live, but I've been all over America - lived in both Chicago and New York - been to plenty of late night events in dodgy neighbourhoods and walked to mass transit... No scumbags, only people. Sometimes shady looking people, but no scumbags.

I was a hell of a lot more cautious in those cities than I am in rural Colorado, but there just isn't much violence. Lots of drug dealers shooting at each other (saw that once... first words I said were "why is that man waving his shoe at that other guy?" and then he opened fire - and missed with four shots at 20 yards: holding the pistol sideways didn't help).

Yes, violent crime is a reality. I've got a couple of friends who've been mugged repeatedly. But that's *rare* and weapons aren't likely to improve the odds much, except guns. The only first-hand story I know of a situation in which EDC weapons made a difference was when a couple of former military types (now gone yuppie) who I know were confronted by a weasely, nervous mugger with a knife. They pulled tactical folders and circled him, and he fled.

But that's it. And those were not regular guys, they were govt. trained killers and they outnumbered him 2 to 1.

They were just having a little fun.

What I'm trying to say is this: anybody who really wants to hurt you is likely to bring a gun, because that's what's rational, obvious and effective in this society. Young talks about 60% guns, 20% other weapons and 20% unarmed (presumably group) muggings. So we're down to 40%, and sufficiently large groups are likely to be pretty much out of it....

So I'm going to suggest that, for the "mugging" scenario, which is already pretty unlikely, there's perhaps a 30% of a realistic hand-to-hand weapons struggle in which a stick or a blade is going to make a difference, and a good chunk of those times you're likely to lose and turn a financial loss into a serious risk of injury or death.

Like I said, it's different if you live in the ghetto or are a bouncer or a cop or a repo man or some such thing - for those guys, it's a whole different experience. They go to violence.

But for the rest of us, violence hardly ever comes to us. And if it does, it's usually going to be packing.

Self defence with guns is a totally different question. A pistol is a weapon which is as good as anything anybody is ever going to come after you with except on a battle field and nobody in their right mind is going to get into a gun fight with you. Serious self defence in America means firearms, period.

Everything other than a gun is for the very rare and somewhat improbable situation where you get into a nearly-matched hand-to-hand combat, and that's a situation which all classes of assailants try to avoid at all costs. Anybody who wants to take what is yours or do you bodily harm is going to do their level best to get a huge, decisive advantage from move 1.

I'm not saying that it's futile, or that I regret my time in martial arts - I'd shock the hell out of anybody who got into a fist fight with me and there's a certain comfort in that. But looking at it as rationally as I can, I just don't see real world scenarios where that training, or even carrying a serious weapon like a sword cane, is going to make me safer. People just don't attack each other very much, and when they do, they bring guns.

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

Oh, and on Marc "Animal" Young's thing about "it" - I think he's saying that people with "it" really aren't going to get into even fights. If it looks like an even fight, first thing they'll do is uneven it. They're not interested in fighting, they're interested in getting what they want, now. I've seen a couple of people like that (google "Dog Man Tony," who I spent a few days around once) and there's no way I'd ever tangle with one, training or not.

 

[usair]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

(a bit more expensive) video and training

 

[Joe Talmadge]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

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Muppet said:
Joe,

First off, the difference between knife range and stick range is one step. Anybody who's ambushing you at knife range is, in all probability, going to cold **** you or stab you. After you go down, you can draw your knife if you're able, but any situation that goes south with somebody right in your face is a bad deal to start with. I'm really not sure it's a realistic threat model.

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Nevertheless, things often start close up. It's realistic, whether people like to deal with it is another question. Much more fun to start 5 feet away, like in sparring. Stay aware, cover, and explosively and effectively counter. Yes, distance (or rather the lack thereof) and ferocity negate your training advantage, but it's not something that's impossible to overcome.

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Once out of blade range, stick wins most of the time, and it's only one step. Can't argue portability etc, but in a straight head-to-head setting, I'd rather be the guy holding the stick. Others may have different opinions on the relative merits of the two, but with my skills, that's how it is for me.

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STick vs knife, if things start in close range, I'd way way rather have the knife. Starting 5 feet away, I see the stick's advantage. Just calling it "one step" as if all you have to do is take an easy step anywhere is too simple -- generally easier to stay close if that's what one wants, in my experience. We've gotten off reality by going to stick vs knife fight, but the point remains the same -- start in close, knife is at home.

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BUT!!! More fundamentally, the question is "who, and where are these scumbags of whom you speak?"

That's a big question: who's going to be hassling you? I don't know where you live, but I've been all over America - lived in both Chicago and New York - been to plenty of late night events in dodgy neighbourhoods and walked to mass transit... No scumbags, only people. Sometimes shady looking people, but no scumbags.

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Bad guys can show up anywhere, in my experience. Maybe less likely in a stroll through the 'burbs than a walk through the city, but nevertheless, crime reports in even a reasonably nice suburb could surprise you. Things happen -- it might be comforting to know that probability is low, but that doesn't matter to the one guy who gets victimized.

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Yes, violent crime is a reality. I've got a couple of friends who've been mugged repeatedly. But that's *rare* and weapons aren't likely to improve the odds much, except guns. The only first-hand story I know of a situation in which EDC weapons made a difference was when a couple of former military types (now gone yuppie) who I know were confronted by a weasely, nervous mugger with a knife. They pulled tactical folders and circled him, and he fled.

But that's it. And those were not regular guys, they were govt. trained killers and they outnumbered him 2 to 1.

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My plan would be to comply with the mugger in that case, probably while also drawing, just in case. Should the guy decide to slice me up after I complied with him -- which happens sometimes -- he'd get a surprise.

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What I'm trying to say is this: anybody who really wants to hurt you is likely to bring a gun, because that's what's rational, obvious and effective in this society. Young talks about 60% guns, 20% other weapons and 20% unarmed (presumably group) muggings. So we're down to 40%, and sufficiently large groups are likely to be pretty much out of it....

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See, that's where I think you're off. Yes, it's true there's a lot of gun-related crime, and having a knife isn't going to tip things in your favor, in that case. But again, crime reports are filled with assaults with other weapons, and with empty hands (definitely not always "large" groups, 2 or 3 is common enough, and 1 is not unheard of). You can tip the odds in your favor with a weapon. And these cases are not non-significant numbers. And aside from muggings, there are any other types of deadly assaults, over all kinds of ridiculousness.

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Self defence with guns is a totally different question. A pistol is a weapon which is as good as anything anybody is ever going to come after you with except on a battle field and nobody in their right mind is going to get into a gun fight with you. Serious self defence in America means firearms, period.

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I think we'd end up quibbling what constituted "serious" self defense. I strongly agree it includes firearms. Strongly disagree that it's firearms in exclusion to everything else. I think you're lost in the stats and missing things because of it. Just talking to a cop who trusts you enough to give you the straight poop is eye-opening -- not every bad guy has a gun, and there are lots of situations where an effective force multiplier can make a difference. In short, I don't disagree about your feeling that a bad guy with a firearm trumps all this stuff -- I disagree that every bad guy has a firearm.

 

[Muppet]

Re: What\'s the best knife for self defense?

I think perhaps the distinction I'm making is about what's appropriate for civilians.

Professionals live on alert all the time. I'm talking the cops - repo men - soldiers - drug dealers - anybody who's going to encounter violence multiple times a year. For those people, nothing I've said makes any sense at all, period. It's a whole different ball of wax.

But outside of that set, I really feel that the set of conditions in which a decent melee weapon makes a significant difference drops to almost zero. It's not *actually* zero, but I think it's damn, damn close. There's a better argument to be made for non-edged weapons, and a better one again to be made for unarmed, but they're all still (in my opinion) highly marginal technologies of safety. They're for winning melee fights, and that's a radically different thing to being safe.

Consider the tough guys over on blade forum. A lot of them aren't regularly encounering violence, they're studying knife combat as a "self-defence" thing. My assertion is that they're not making themselves significantly safer, and in fact the additional confidence they feel in their skills may, in some cases, lead them into danger their instincts would otherwise allow them to avoid.

Two weekends a year training in knife fighting, and no CPR training, know what I mean? Very odd priorities. Two EDC fighting knives, but no life hammer in the car and old smoke detector batteries.... I'm kinda making a parody, but it's a mindset I see a lot, and I'm beginning to have a real feeling that it's destructive.

There are a lot of folks like that out there. The elevated perception of the risk of violence, and the overestimation of the effectiveness of melee weapons leads people to ignore much more basic strategies, threats and risks.

That's my opinion.

Flick through the "Cold Steel" catalog:

http://www.coldsteel.com/fixed-blades.html

Most of this stuff is basically knife porn. And I quote:

"The Urban Pal should be standard equipment for survival in today's urban jungle."

The "Urban Pal" is a nasty little push dagger. Does everybody need one? Is it really standard equipment apart for undercover narcs who need three backups?

There's no urban jungle for most people. But there's a mindset which leads people to believe that there is, and a lot of knife culture which suggests a blade is an appropriate tool for an average person to cut their way through that jungle.

I really think it's dangerous mythology.

I don't know about your living conditions, you may well be in an area where the risks are, in fact, tangible enought that it makes a lot of sense to train with a blade, carry, and intend to use it. Or you might be super, super careful, and feel like edged weapons carry and training actually fits the threats in your environment well enough that the edge it gives you in real terms is significant. I don't know, I'm not in your shoes, and it'd be very, very arrogant of me to even query your approaches and your decisions.

So please don't take what I'm saying personally, or to refer to your choices and your situation.

For me, personally, when I really sat down and thought about it, I came to the conclusion that we're being sold a bill of goods by knife culture and knife companies. I don't think the "threat model" they're selling corresponds all that much more closely to the real world than Okinawan Karate with rice flails.

I guess that's how I see it in a nutshell: I don't think the threat model corresponds with reality. I think that there's a growing culture which confused skill with a blade with safety in the streets, and that's just not the case in my opinion. It's an opinion based on limited data and my own prejudices, but that's how I see it.

Best,

Muppet.