Why SureFire is more $$$ than Fenix???
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My Civictor (Long since lost) also had no ill-effects when I tested it.
yaesumofo
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Why Surefire is more $$$ than Fenix???
One thing is for sure. Surefire spends a lot of money on several things. Manufacturing, Marketing, R and D, quality control.
Here is a little aside.
In my industry The film industry, When a film gets made they often have budgets of 100 million. this dough comes from many sources..world wide.
Lets say they make the film in the USA. After the film is done and they have spent their 100 million. The studios do a bunch of Market research to determine how to successfully sell the film to movie goers. This market research costs a bundle then they start marketing the film. Marketing costs on a high budget film can exceed the production budget. They often spend the same amount or more than it cost them to make it all over again in order to get people into the theatre.
\
My point is that surefire spends a fair amount of dough just to get us to buy a light. This money has little relationship to production costs. Regardless of where the lights are made they have this expense which ads to the cost of the light.
Surefire is a company who cares a great deal about their image. That costs money.
I have no knowledge that Fenix does any marketing. I am sure they do but it is not visible to me.
So that is one thing that makes Surefire flashlights more expensive.
QC especially good QC is expensive. I suspect that USA QC costs more than Chinese QC. Just a guess.
Another thing that makes Surefire flashlights more expensive are things like Profit. You have all heard of that right?
OK it is where you charge a price which is higher that your costs for a product. Profit is what is left over. That goes into your company to grow it and/or into your pocket to have fun with.
A lot of why Surefire flashlights cost more than Fenix flashlights is PROFIT MOTIVE. They want to make more money. Lots of it.
The American dream in action.
So a PRIVATE company who assembles their flashlights (which have components from all over the world BTW(emitters are but one example)) in the USA, Gets to make money as a result of their labor.
They have a lot invested (it is a totally private company). Generally the more you invest the more you make.
IMHO that is why Surefire flashlights cost more than Fenix flashlights.
Yaesumofo
One thing is for sure. Surefire spends a lot of money on several things. Manufacturing, Marketing, R and D, quality control.
Here is a little aside.
In my industry The film industry, When a film gets made they often have budgets of 100 million. this dough comes from many sources..world wide.
Lets say they make the film in the USA. After the film is done and they have spent their 100 million. The studios do a bunch of Market research to determine how to successfully sell the film to movie goers. This market research costs a bundle then they start marketing the film. Marketing costs on a high budget film can exceed the production budget. They often spend the same amount or more than it cost them to make it all over again in order to get people into the theatre.
\
My point is that surefire spends a fair amount of dough just to get us to buy a light. This money has little relationship to production costs. Regardless of where the lights are made they have this expense which ads to the cost of the light.
Surefire is a company who cares a great deal about their image. That costs money.
I have no knowledge that Fenix does any marketing. I am sure they do but it is not visible to me.
So that is one thing that makes Surefire flashlights more expensive.
QC especially good QC is expensive. I suspect that USA QC costs more than Chinese QC. Just a guess.
Another thing that makes Surefire flashlights more expensive are things like Profit. You have all heard of that right?
OK it is where you charge a price which is higher that your costs for a product. Profit is what is left over. That goes into your company to grow it and/or into your pocket to have fun with.
A lot of why Surefire flashlights cost more than Fenix flashlights is PROFIT MOTIVE. They want to make more money. Lots of it.
The American dream in action.
So a PRIVATE company who assembles their flashlights (which have components from all over the world BTW(emitters are but one example)) in the USA, Gets to make money as a result of their labor.
They have a lot invested (it is a totally private company). Generally the more you invest the more you make.
IMHO that is why Surefire flashlights cost more than Fenix flashlights.
Yaesumofo
PhantomPhoton
Flashlight Enthusiast
Come on now ----- you have to admit those Surefires are pretty overpriced!! I own a Fenix L2D CE and a Surefire U2. Yes, the Surefire is a better, sturdier, better engineered light.
But ---- $60 vs. $250
Actually for some reason the U2 has gone up in price... it is not $279. And I don't think much has changed since it was $250.
I agree it is kind of an apples and oranges debate. Myself I'm not particularly fond of either company. I own a couple SF lights and a Fenix light.
You gotta use the right tool for the right job. I do trust my SF more than my Fenix. Not much more but a bit. But I know that if I just want a lot of light not to buy a SF. (unless its a milkymod host
; I'll get one someday)The big picture for me is that there's no perfect light for every job that I need to do. If SF did make that perfect light I'd buy it at most any cost; but they don't, so I put money into other lights that come closer to what I need it to do.
Are SF's overpriced? Yes, definitely. But only by a bit. My major issue with them is the absolute BS they give dealers who sell at discounts. That is why I don't buy a lot more of them. (I don't need anymore CR123 primaries) They make great lights that can justifiably be priced way more than a Fenix. But it is up to the market to decide how much a dealer should sell them for, not the manufacturer.
Oh and +1 to yaesumofo
I sit in awe of his insightful posts far too often. :thumbsup:
SAVAGESAM
Newly Enlightened
Could you please explain this? I don't think the tax payers are paying for SF R&D.
Valpo Hawkeye
Flashlight Enthusiast
SF has large government contracts. I would guess (purely a guess) that they have better sales numbers through those than through general retail. That may have changed now that SureFire has "caught on" with the higher-end gadget and hunting crowd. However, they still sell to Uncle Sam. Therefore, their R&D is funded by tax payers.
Through the military maybe ? Still seems strange to me ...
SAVAGESAM
Newly Enlightened
OK.
gilly
Enlightened
I had the exact same experience two weeks ago - I'm with you on that, ace! Surefire could and SHOULD put out a reasonable, less-expensive line of lights for us "budget-conscious flashaholics"!
Hitthespot
Flashlight Enthusiast
You havn't offended anyone and DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. This happens on any board where the same subjects come up a lot. The people who frequent the Rolex forum deal with this everyday. Same Questions from new people.
I own both. Surefires and Fenix. I like both lights and I will try to give you my honest opinions without the emotion.
Fenix latest lights can be had brighter than Surefire.
Fenix makes models that are smaller than Surefire.
Fenix Lights are made in China.
Fenix lights (at present ) can only be bought pretty much on line.
Fenix Quality is very good and should hold up with average use a long time.
Surefires are bright and have excellent beam patterns. Most models are 3 to 5 times brighter than the original Maglite 2D's.
Surefires housings are tough. They are designed for extreme use. Many who's life could depend on a light consider Surefire only, and rightfully so.
Surefires are designed and manufactured in the United States.
Surefires can be purchased on line and from many stores.
Gander Mountain and Lowes come to mind in my neck of the woods but I'm sure there are others.
Surefires are knurled nicely and have excellent anti-slip properties in the hand.
Surefires have a lifetime warranty that many will attest to. Surefire stands behind their product! Many people consider this fact alone to be worth the extra cost on any product they buy. It alway wieghs heavy on my mind with a product I buy.
Consider how you will use the light. Casual or tough usage. Size and just how bright the light needs to be. Does where it's made matter? Will the light be used in wet or slippery environments? Will you keep it a lifetime or buy a new light every couple of years? Usually you can pretty much weed this out for yourself unless your a Flashaholic. Then it's easy Just buy them all.
MikeLip
Flashlight Enthusiast
Ah, er, no. It's not the taxpayers duty to support private companies R&D departments.
MikeLip
Flashlight Enthusiast
roymail
Enlightened
Burgess, you're da bomb! ....gotta love it! :twothumbs
GaryF
Enlightened
Another one for Fenix: They make lights that use "standard" batteries.
Surefire does have SOS and strobe modes, you just have to be really fast with the tailcap!:nana:
Hitthespot
Flashlight Enthusiast
Good point. The standard batteries could matter to some.
Joe Talmadge
Flashlight Enthusiast
This reminds me of Sebenza vs CRKT arguments a bit: for someone whose values are perfectly addressed by one, they will never be swayed by arguments for the other. Fun to argue endlessly, though
As I said above, much as I love SF, years ago I decided the value SF represented no longer addressed what I wanted, and I stopped buying them. I've bought a bunch of Fenix lights since then, but just a month or two ago I did some thinking and decided that Fenix, too, was not addressing quite what I wanted. I absolutely love Fenix's price-performance and overall light output, but a number of other factors consistently left me less-than-completely-thrilled (e.g. the UIs), so I've promised myself I would spend the next few purchases discovering other lights for now. My first purchase was, ironically, a Malkoff drop-in to rehabilitate my old SF C2 -- holy crapola! Next, I think I'd like to try a completely new UI, either something like that tactical AA from edgetac or maybe even spend a pretty penny on Lumencraft's EOS if it ever comes out.
As I said above, much as I love SF, years ago I decided the value SF represented no longer addressed what I wanted, and I stopped buying them. I've bought a bunch of Fenix lights since then, but just a month or two ago I did some thinking and decided that Fenix, too, was not addressing quite what I wanted. I absolutely love Fenix's price-performance and overall light output, but a number of other factors consistently left me less-than-completely-thrilled (e.g. the UIs), so I've promised myself I would spend the next few purchases discovering other lights for now. My first purchase was, ironically, a Malkoff drop-in to rehabilitate my old SF C2 -- holy crapola! Next, I think I'd like to try a completely new UI, either something like that tactical AA from edgetac or maybe even spend a pretty penny on Lumencraft's EOS if it ever comes out.
This question is very broad in scope or quite shallow and superficial in context.
Is the question directed at the cost of a flashlight from each company? Is the question directed at the size and net worth of each company? Do we compare a SF G2 to some Fenix model or do we compare the cost of a SF Beast to some model of Fenix?
If Fenix funded the R&D of a particular theoretical flashlight and then had it qualified by certain military and agency standards and then had it produced and marketed in the US similar to how a particular and similar SF light is born, how would their costs compare? On the other hand, if SF set up a factory off shore and paid locals to run and manage the factory and design and build a light similar to a particular Fenix flashlight, how would their costs compare?
I have no idea how a typical profit margin on a typical SF light would compare to a typical profit margin on a typical Fenix light but an confident that even if SF and Fenix worked with the same profit margins that the SF lights would appear more expensive than Fenix lights. I say this because I believe SF has expenses in magnitude and nature that Fenix does not have. These expenses are passed on in the cost of a flashlight.
Now why would one care or be interested if a SF light is more expensive than a Fenix light? Well I suspect one would care or be interested if they were in the market and had to consider what they would have to pay to own one of the other light. However first I would think that one would try to identify what they were looking for in and from a light and identify a particular light or number of lights which seem to best suit their needs. At that point, one must weigh the cost of the light to its perceived features and values and then make some subjective as well a objective comparisons between possible choices. If a more expensive light also provides more perceived value then it may boil down to a question of how much value does one want to acquire or need from a light.
There are reasons why Surefire could be said, in general and broad terms, to be more expensive than Fenix. Whether these reasons are legitimate, justified and reasonable to a consumer are for the consumer to determine.
Frankly, I am not aware of any comparisons between SF and Fenix that make much sense at a particular flashlight level. There are many of off shore companies who make 6P clones and forgeries and it makes sense, to me, to compare a 6P clone to a SF 6P and then question the merits VS the prices of the two.
IMHO, what Fenix and SF have in common beyond being flashlight manufacturers is popularity on CPF. If one wants to compare their pricing and marketing then one needs to look at perhaps a bigger picture and identify the markets each company is attempting to service. If these overall markets are different then it would be no surprise that the offerings might be different as well.
Where the BS enters into discussions, IMHO, is when folks who like and buy these different flashlights find they need to justify their purchases both to themselves as well as the community. When price enters the discussion, the discussion often goes south. To me and given my interests in these lights, there is so much more involved than simply the price of a light. I am also fascinated because of new technologies and components which keep coming out and changing the potential of these lights. When I see a new light mentioned on CPF and in its actual name, is the bin distinction of some latest and greatest LED then I am pretty confident that this light is targeting a small and discriminating market who is "in the know" about such things and this light is not only targeting a small audience but this light will also likely enjoy a short period of significance in its target market. I am more interested in the validity of a light beyond its contemporary appeal to those who follow the technology. A sound flashlight sporting a Luxeon 15 lumen LowDome emitter is as effective today at illumination as it was 4 years ago when it was made.
I'll go out on a limb here and propose that SF targets a longer life or duty cycle with their flashlights than Fenix does. This consideration alone might have significant impact on price but not necessarily impart value to a consumer; especially if the consumer plans to get the next gen LED light as soon as the next gen LED is released.
~or~
Because they are. Because they can. Because they need to be. Just because.
Now a question or two from me:
Could SF step into Fenix's shoes and do what they do?
Could Fenix step into SF's shoes and do what they do?
Is there any reason for either company to change shoes?
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