Will the Sodium-ion batteries be the game-changer in the battery industry?

[XTAR Light]

CATL unveiled its new sodium-ion batteries back in July 2021. And in April 2023, CATL signed a new partnership with car maker Chery, for the first time, the sodium-ion batteries are being used in electric vehicles. With sodium-ion batteries promising up to 50% cost savings thanks to the more available materials needed and offering a range of up to 400 kilometres, this partnership could serve as an important step for the EV industry.

Comparing with traditional lithium-ion batteries, the new sodium batteries have a number of advantages that make them more efficient, cost-effective, and sustainable. Do you think it will be a game-changer for the industry?

 

[bykfixer]

I hope so. But I remember that Beta-Max was better than VHS but better marketing ensured VHS was the dominant way we watched videos.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Sodium is heavier than lithium? Cycle longevity is a question?

 

[alpg88]

I hope so. But I remember that Beta-Max was better than VHS but better marketing ensured VHS was the dominant way we watched videos.

Good example actually, but it has little to do with marketing, betta was more expensive and allowed less time of recordings. it did offer better quality, so overall vhs offered more advantages to a consumer. that is why it won. it's only advantage was not so significant since at that time tv's were 640 lines max, vhs offered very good quality, on par with quality tv broadcasts.
Same applies to batteries, it has to give overall advantage for manufacturers to invest into producing them. one or two factors that do not even offer considerable advantage, isn't good enough.

 

[aznsx]

I hope so. But I remember that Beta-Max was better than VHS but better marketing ensured VHS was the dominant way we watched videos.

I've time-shifted 100% of my TV programming since the 80s. After a bit of VHS usage, S-VHS was the route I settled on, with my weapons of choice being a pair of Sony SLV-R1000s. S-VHS was a bit of the best of both worlds for some professional and home system users - video quality, recording time, and interoperability w/ the then existing 'standard' (which as you pointed out eventually settled in favor of VHS for most home / non-commercial use). The media format + very high video quality made it the clear winner for my home use. I of course eventually switched over to a pair of private user market (non-'cable') DVRs. Sony Hi-8 was perfect for hand-held camcorders, with stunning quality in a very small size format. The factor which eventually settled much of that out was not a superior tape format, but rather digital tech and inexpensive and practical data storage tech, but that would take a good while to happen. When it did, most quickly moved on from tape formats.

While a bit of a tangent, this does point out that one technology does not always rule for all applications / uses / environments, nor for very long. Humans seem to seek a one size fits all / universal solution across many sectors / uses, but that rarely ends up being the case in reality. Current lithium-ion chemistries will likely prevail for quite a while in many market sectors, but it's entirely possible that other techs will eventually take the lead in others, such as EVs, which are a very different application from flashlights and other portable electronic devices. Sometimes 'all (or at least several) of the above' is the ultimate answer, and I doubt that any new cell / batt tech(s) will dominate in all sectors.

New technologies come and go like streetcars, but many never come to full fruition, and most are not universal solutions; as a rule, things are just not that simplistic.

 

[orbital]

+

LONGEVITY?

Often lately, the big buzz is just to get investors.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

CATL unveiled its new sodium-ion batteries back in July 2021. And in April 2023, CATL signed a new partnership with car maker Chery, for the first time, the sodium-ion batteries are being used in electric vehicles. With sodium-ion batteries promising up to 50% cost savings thanks to the more available materials needed and offering a range of up to 400 kilometres, this partnership could serve as an important step for the EV industry.

Comparing with traditional lithium-ion batteries, the new sodium batteries have a number of advantages that make them more efficient, cost-effective, and sustainable. Do you think it will be a game-changer for the industry?

Will sodium-ion batteries be any less prone to thermal runaway than lithium-ion?

 

[Sjvalleydave]

Hydrogen Fuel cells are the answer. The 24 Hours of LeMans has had a Hydrogen Fuel cell race car finish the 24 hour a couple of years in a row. Current fueling stations can be changed over easily, the engines are really just a small conversion from gas/diesel engines, milage more like a car....

 

[idleprocess]

Hydrogen Fuel cells are the answer.

In spite of decades of R&D and pilot projects the market has decisively said otherwise for most applications, particularly automobiles.

Current fueling stations can be changed over easily

Takes a lot of capital to do so since hydrogen tankage, compressors, and ancillary equipment are very different beasts than gasoline and diesel equivalents. Given the immense pressures involved and the difficulty containing incredibly-volatile hydrogen this equipment is markedly more expensive and requires considerable safety engineering.

the engines are really just a small conversion from gas/diesel engines

While one can convert typical internal combustion engine designs to run on hydrogen, the issue is limitations on storage due to hydrogen's inherently low density.

Compress hydrogen to a modest 700 bar and you're going to be lucky to realize some 50 miles or so of range with an ICE. The immense pressure demands shapes in the form of spheres or domed cylinders which are appreciably less space-efficient within the confines of automobile packaging than the arbitrary shapes of liquid fuel tanks with negligible pressure requirements.

Step up the game with spicier cryogenic liquid hydrogen and you can get something close to standard ICE vehicle range. But you for sure can't just fill it up and park it because that -243C / 30K liquid hydrogen desperately wishes to again be a gas due to the ~+270K positive temperature gradient that surrounds it and it's not possible to build a tank that's both strong enough to gracefully handle thermal expansion of liquid H2 trying to become gaseous H2 while also being light enough for mobility. So you're going to have to manage it something like a rocket on a launch pad - consume it promptly, allow it to boil off, or defuel before temperatures rise above a threshold.

Thus industry's focus on low-temperature hydrogen fuel cells which are considerably more efficient than an ICE and can achieve acceptable range with compressed hydrogen. But those applications have been slow-developing and mostly limited to larger vehicles where packaging isn't as big of a concern - trains, busses, drayage/OTR trucks.

 

[idleprocess]

Back on topic, at a high level sodium-ion cells seem to be generally analogous to LFP vs li-ion: better cycle life, lower cost ... at the expense of lower energy density. The latter point won't matter much for stationary applications but could be a problem for some applications where mobility is key. Although if the cost is low enough the battery hot-swapping concept for EVs that goes back almost a century might actually take off as the capital costs of such an application might be low enough to succeed on a large scale.

 

[alpg88]

Swappable batteries are a no go, it is not nearly as easy as swapping batteries in a flashlights, nor do i want a battery of unknown origin, condition to replace my brand new battery.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

Swappable batteries are a no go, it is not nearly as easy as swapping batteries in a flashlights, nor do i want a battery of unknown origin, condition to replace my brand new battery.

This is what concerns me also. You would have to develop an automatic battery-ID protocol that would indicate the battery's age, capacity and overall health and exchange it for a similar module of equal value. The potential for fraud in this aspect is not trivial. Unscrupulous operators could find a way to "roll back the odometer" in the battery's ID module.

 

[idleprocess]

Swappable batteries are a no go, it is not nearly as easy as swapping batteries in a flashlights

FWIW all that a markedly cheaper battery technology does is clear one hurdle - the present substantial capital cost of spare battery packs. The 31 flavors problem remains - different formfactors, different means to physically swap.

nor do i want a battery of unknown origin, condition to replace my brand new battery.

Presumably the swap network operator would offer solid performance guarantees, but that trust would need to be earned.

 

[Got Lumens?]

I am all for new battery technologies.
As said, there are many, especially manufacturers, that have much $$$'s riding the current Li-Ion technology's wave.
It's an uphill battle facing many businesses within the industry. We witnessed AW's, the best IMO, demise
and closure of past recent. I can say with no doubt, the industry of battery development and product's will get
more expensive, as the newer technologies gain wider acceptance and approvals. It has been and seen presently
within the vehicle battery industries, Flooded versus AGM. In a perfect world, we as consumer's would benefit, however
in the real world Lion technologies will not go away quietly. This is especially true within the flashlight realm.
I Sure wish there were some/any US based manufacturers that could step up and fill the gap. That would allow for
an easier time upon the flashlight industry to design new products that use a newer powered technology. Monies
to be lost, monies to be made, it's a simplified process that hinges upon the reliance of foreign imported products
of many other countries currently producing battery products.

 

[ampdude]

Anyone here still have a laserdisc player? Haha I remember seeing a really high quality Pioneer one back in the late 90's when I was cleaning offices and never got a chance to ask anyone if I could buy it. Probably couldn't afford it anyways at the time, being poor teenager me.