ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Here is what Newbie reported...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie
I've ran 60 sets of Battery Station cells in this specific scenario, and got venting over 75% the time, and nearly 100% venting in the PM6. I have to emphasize that the cells need to be mis-matched by 30% (discharged by 30% on purpose and used with a fresh cell) to cause the failure mode, when they are matched e.g. ZTS tested, I was unable to get them to vent.



From this thread.

Click to expand...

Yes, and I believe that Newbie is stating that he discharged the cells in a flashlight prior to the tests where venting occured. He has not demonstrated that cells with mismatched ZTS values are more likely to vent.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Hello David,

That is correct. I was just pointing out that the ZTS test seems to be able to match cells to avoid the venting problem.

I am planning on providing Newbie with some mismatched Titanium cells to see if we can get them to vent.

If you are using a multi cell light you have a couple of choices...

You can put "new" cells in assume that the "new" cells are matched or, you can pick up a ZTS tester and check the cells and make sure they are matched. I think the ZTS test information is valuable in adding another layer of safety while using multi cell lights.

With premium brand cells running $2.00 - 2.50 per cell and other brands running around $1.00 per cell, you may be able to quickly recover the cost of the ZTS tester by matching your own cells and still enjoy safe multi cell lighting...

Tom

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

David_Campen said:

note that fluoride is deliberately added to most drinking water supplies (and toothpaste):
http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/general/teeth/fluoride.html

Click to expand...

Take time to read the MSDS sheet, you'd find one of the problem chemicals that is produced is known as HydroFlouric Acid.

Among other things, besides not knowing you were exposed...

Cardiovascular or Blood Toxicant KLAA
Developmental Toxicant EPA-SARA
Gastrointestinal or Liver Toxicant RTECS
Musculoskeletal Toxicant EPA-HEN OEHHA-CREL
Neurotoxicant RTECS
Reproductive Toxicant EPA-SARA
Respiratory Toxicant ATSDR EPA-HEN HAZMAP KLAA LU OEHHA-AREL OEHHA-CREL RTECS
Skin or Sense Organ Toxicant EPA-HEN HAZMAP KLAA OEHHA-AREL RTECS

Ranked as one of the most hazardous compounds (worst 10%) to ecosystems and human health.

Cornell University has a paper specific to this dangerous chemical:
"Hydrofluoric Acid (HF) is one of the most hazardous chemicals at Cornell. People have died from relatively small exposures of HF. The critical minutes immediately after an exposure can have a great effect on the chances of a victim’s survival....The fluoride ion binds calcium in the blood, bones and other organs and causes damage to tissues that is very painful and often lethal."
http://www.ehs.cornell.edu/lrs/chemInfo/infoPackets/HFProtocol.pdf


I would also encourage you to go look up the other chemicals listed on the MSDS sheet, links for it can be found here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776&page=1&pp=40


There was a small discussion on this, and I'll quote one of my posts:
MSDS:
Thermal degradation may produce hazardous fumes of manganese and lithium; hydrofluoric acid; oxides of carbon and sulfur and other toxic by-products.

Manganese Dioxide (1313-13-9) 30-45%
1,2-Dimethoxyethane (110-71-4) 5-10%
Propylene Carbonate (108-32-7) 1-10%
Lithium (7439-93-2) 1-5%
Carbon Black (1333-86-4) 1-5%
Lithium Trifluoromethane Sulfonate 1-5%
Ethylene Carbonate (96-49-1) 0-5%

See MSDS:
http://www.duracell.com/oem/safety/pdf/2003_9.pdf


Energizer Primary:
Carbon Black (CAS# 1333-86-4) 0-1 %
Manganese Dioxide (CAS# 1313-13-9) 12-42%
Propylene Carbonate (CAS# 108-32-7) 0-8%
1,2-Dimethoxyethane (CAS# 110-71-4) 0-6%
1,3-Dioxolane (CAS# 646-06-0) 0-8%
Graphite (CAS# 7782-42-5) 0-3 %
Manganese Dioxide (CAS# 1313-13-9) 12-42%
Propylene Carbonate (CAS# 108-32-7) 0-8%
Lithium or Lithium Alloy (CAS# 7439-93-2) 1-6%
Lithium Perchlorate (CAS# 7791-03-9) 0-3%
Lithium Trifluoromethanesulfonate (CAS# 33454-82-9) 0-3%
Lithium Trifluoromethanesulfonimide (CAS# 90076-65-6) 0-3%

MSDS:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lith...ioxide_psds.pdf


Energizer Lithium Ion:

Acetylene Black (CAS# 1333-86-4) 0-2%
Biphenyl (CAS# 92-52-4) 0-15%
Diethyl Carbonate (CAS# 105-58-8) 0-15%
Dimethyl Carbonate (CAS# 616-38-6) 0-15%
Ethyl Methyl Carbonate (CAS# 623-53-0) 0-15%
Ethylene Carbonate (CAS# 96-49-1) 0-15%
Graphite (CAS# 7782-42-5) 7-22%
Lithium Cobalt Oxide (CAS# 12190-79-3) 15-30%
Lithium Hexafluorophosphate (CAS# 21324-40-3) 0-5%
Lithium Tetrafluoroborate (CAS# 14283-07-9) 0-5%
n-Methyl Pyrrolidinone (CAS# 872-50-4) 0-1%
Oxalic Acid (CAS# 144-62-7) 0-1%
Propylene Carbonate (CAS# 108-32-7) 0-15%

Burning lithium ion batteries can produce toxic fumes including HF Acid, oxides of carbon, aluminum, lithium, copper, and cobalt. Volatile phosphorus pentafluoride may form at a temperature above 230° F.


The most of the MSDS for the Lithium Primaries also warn of Hydrofloric Acid, Lithium Hydroxide, hazardous fumes of manganese and lithium, oxides of carbon and sulfur and other toxic by-products for burning/thermal degradation of the cells.
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1484560

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

I had the opportunity to do a second run on the Lithium Primary CR123A cells from AmondoTech, aka Titanium.

This event was a rather minor cell disassembly, and the 1/2" polycarbonate (Lexan) plate got lifted, with a few embers that blew themselves right out of the bucket, when it slightly lifted the heavy protection shield and even managed to knock the temperature meter clear off the top and onto the deck.

Here is a slow motion video of the event itself. Unfortunately, the sun set and it got dark in the middle of testing, and I didn't have the light on:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/amon2sm.wmv

This is a real time video of the event, with video of the aftermath:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/amondo2.wmv


Folks, --->*DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELVES, IT IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!!"<---


.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Thank you so much for your concern but there is really nothing in the MSDS that I don't already know.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

David_Campen said:

note that fluoride is deliberately added to most drinking water supplies (and toothpaste):
http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/general/teeth/fluoride.html

Click to expand...

David_Campen said:

Thank you so much for your concern but there is really nothing in the MSDS that I don't already know.

Click to expand...

Outstanding! The difference between trace amounts of floride added to water (promotes healthy teeth and such) and HydroFluoric Acid should be a little clearer now. As well, as the extreme danger of HydroFluoric Acid which is produced by CR123A Lithium Primary cells when they fail, and some of the precautions recommended by Cornell University.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Great, then the difference between floride added to water (promotes healthy teeth and such) and HydroFluoric Acid should be a little clearer now.

Click to expand...

No, sorry, and your (re)posting an entire MSDS does not make you seem intelligent.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

David_Campen said:

Yes, and I believe that Newbie is stating that he discharged the cells in a flashlight prior to the tests where venting occured. He has not demonstrated that cells with mismatched ZTS values are more likely to vent.

Click to expand...

:huh2: I believe he has consistantly shown that mismatched cells vent.:shrug:

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

FYI posting info in great detail is Newbie's trademark. Jarhead has greatly contributed to the knowledge base of cpf.

Newbie's super detailed work on lithium failures is easily the single most import work currently being posted on CPF.

This is being done at great person risk and personal expense. results will benifit everyone.

David_Campen said:

No, sorry, and your (re)posting an entire MSDS does not make you seem intelligent.

Click to expand...

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

David_Campen said:

No, sorry, and your (re)posting an entire MSDS does not make you seem intelligent.

Click to expand...

:scowl: Can a moderator take care of this! This is baiting at it's worst! :scowl:

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

David_Campen said:

No, sorry, and your (re)posting an entire MSDS does not make you seem intelligent.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, may I ask how this is contributing to this thread? The explosion was real; the toxins released were real; NewBie has demonstrated time and again that mismatched cells ignite.

No, reposting an MSDS does not indicate intelligence beyond copy-and-paste skills. Indepth analysis of the data and the underlying causes does. To this point, NewBie is attempting to standardize a testing method with the goal of demonstrating the cause of lithium cells igniting. I do not possess a PhD in Environmental Health nor do I claim to (though I know of a good number of people who do, at the CDC, EPA and other organizations) so I appreciate the effort made here. We are sharing analysis of several data points to make determinations about the cause and potential health related issues regarding exploding CR123 cells. Since my family was inadvertently exposed to this explosion and release of toxins you may assume I am very, very interested in these discussion threads.

If I may, I suggest you keep such petty insinuations either to yourself or utilize the PM button to take them up with the author. Other than critiques, do you have anything substantive to add to the discussion?

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

What's the matter with you!! :mad:

David_Campen said:

No, sorry, and your (re)posting an entire MSDS does not make you seem intelligent.

Click to expand...

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

In terms of moderation, the community is doing a good job, IMHO. Back to the subject at hand, it seems that these recent induced events show a greater and more intense release of energy than some of the other events or vents.

I don't want to derive a false sense of security from the fact that I only use SF CR123 cells in multiple cell lights but it seems from the test results so far that a simple vent resulting from mis-matched SF cells is a much better score than we have seen from some of these other brand batteries. Does this observation have statistical relevance given the limited number of tests? I realize that in making this observation I am exposing some brands to unfavorable implications and I don't take that lightly! If such an observation is premature and inappropriate, I would appreciate comments and correction for clarification.

I realize that there is much to still be learned and Newbie is working on a means of gleaning more information and quantitative date from these induced events. However there seems to be some trends emerging and if some of us are starting to form opinnions on the test results perhaps we should sound these opinions out for a collective consensus and review. Of significance is my perception that it may be opinnions that are forming and these are not necesarily facts!!

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Nevermind- I watched the vid again more closely. :thumbsup:

Larry

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Third vent in a row for AmondoTech Titanium CR123A cells:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1542134

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Fourth vent in a row, see link above.

And Fifth vent.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

McGizmo said:

However there seems to be some trends emerging and if some of us are starting to form opinnions on the test results perhaps we should sound these opinions out for a collective consensus and review.

Click to expand...

My opinion,

1.) I am not afraid of 2/multi cell lights, I do have a new found respect for their use.
From the very first use of any multi cell device, I have always used common sense and followed the manufacturer's warnings.

2.) All CR123's are not created equally, I will stick with the brands I use.

3.) Single cell lights are less prone to these events. (by a large margin, if at all )

4.)LED vs Incan, if the 2/multi cell LED light draws high current it may be as susceptible as a 2/multi cell Incan.

5.)DO NOT MIX CELLS. Either by brand or varying states of charge/discharge/potential. Seems I have read this many times on many devices.

Newbie I also greatly appreciate your time and effort on this venture.:goodjob:

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

originally posted here:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776&page=1&pp=20

below is based upon tracking lithium failure information posted on cpf. these are possible common traits, I've observed.

until someone else comes up with a better explaination, this is what I believe to be happening...

------------------
possible primary lithium cell failure mode(s)

1. user and/or mfg places two or more primary lithium cells into incan and/or LED flashlight.

2. one or more of cells is in substantial lessor state of charge than other cell(s) in series. 100% for first cell and say 60% for second cell.

3. operator accidentally leaves light on for extended run.

4. 100% cell starts to reverse charge 60% cell. large current drain from 100% heats up source cell and 60% cell also heats up from being reversed charged.

5. if PTC is defective on host cell(s) and heavy internal reverse charge is occuring. This leads to venting with flames by one and/or both cells.

6. if this venting with flames is contained within an air tight container like a flashlight. explosion will result.

number of reported primary lithium failures has only recently spiked. past cpf threads will show timeline of failure reports. IMHO spikes in failures is directly related to primary lithium cells mfg in China. there is a need to identify who actual manufactors of failed primary cells are.

please correct me if I wrong. So far no documented venting with flames has occured with single primary lithium cell lights. No documented venting with flames has occured with li-ion cells in single cell or multiple cell lights. (bare and protected li-ion cells)
__________________

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

3. operator accidentally leaves light on for extended run.

Click to expand...

I wonder how significant this may be? If for instance, Newbie were to shut down the test at the moment the light starts to flicker and lets all cool down and then turns the circuit back on, will the electro-chemical reaction continue as before? Certainly there will be a difference in thermal state due to the cold re-start but is this enough to avoid the venting or event? :shrug: I would be concerned that the potential is still real and present.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

David_Campen ... as the membership has already suggested ... please leave personal attacks out of this thread and out of CPF. They are not wanted here nor are they tolerated. If you have a point to make, do so in an acceptable manner.
Thank you very much.
Gentlemen ... go on with this important topic ... :)
bernie