Interesting response from Surefire regarding new output numbers for L4 and L5....

KDOG3 · Mar 20, 2006

I emailed them asking how they came up with the new output numbers for the L4 and L5 which are now 100 lumens up from 65. They replied that they have new light measuring equipment just for LEDs' that is much more accurate than the older equipment. I've always heard/read that Surefire is pretty honest with their output numbers, so what do you think if you have one of these lights?

LiteSabre · Mar 20, 2006

I think that Surfire is bogus! I believe they are having a hard time with all the competition building similar quality product for far less of a cost. I have both the E2+KL4 head = L4, and the L2: both of which are supposed to be 5W Luxeon, but the L2 is much brighter in overall output. This tells me that there is something funny going on if both uses the same Luxeon LED. Orginally, the L4 was rated at 65 lumens and the L2 at 100 Lumens. I believe that to be accurate. If Surefire is now saying that the L4 is 100 lumens, then what does it make the L2? People were always saying that Surefire's lumen rating was conservative and other companies over rate their claim. I now believe that Surefire is doing exactly what the other companies were doing along. Claiming higher lumen readings to attract more sales.

I'm not trying to say that their products are over rated, but they are over priced. I own a few Surefire products and it's starting to burn a whole in my wallet. I just wished they came out with some more innovative products this year. Very Disappointed! :thumbsdow

Luna · Mar 20, 2006

LiteSabre said:
If Surefire is now saying that the L4 is 100 lumens, then what does it make the L2? People were always saying that Surefire's lumen rating was conservative and other companies over rate their claim.

In the past, the L2 and U2 were driven harder than the L4. If the circuitry is the same, I'd expect the L2 to be rated higher.

Even more important than the measuring device change, Since the introduction of the L4, bins seem to have gotten better. Even my U2 with 20% more output than my L2 (as compared from the factory), was improved by the same margin with the inclusion of a new Wbin. These new emitters are doing great, to the point that I' guess they are at the high end.

KDOG3 · Mar 20, 2006

I admit they need to clarify this claim. Surefire products are plenty good to begin with, I don't know why the would feel the need to "inflate" numbers. I would like them to respond in these forums.

CLHC · Mar 20, 2006

I believe there are SF personel who are members here on CPF.

Size15's · Mar 21, 2006

CHC said:
I believe there are SF personel who are members here on CPF.

Then they will be found and lined up against the wall :xyxgun:

270winchester · Mar 21, 2006

LiteSabre said:
I think that Surfire is bogus! I believe they are having a hard time with all the competition building similar quality product for far less of a cost. I have both the E2+KL4 head = L4, and the L2: both of which are supposed to be 5W Luxeon, but the L2 is much brighter in overall output. This tells me that there is something funny going on if both uses the same Luxeon LED. Orginally, the L4 was rated at 65 lumens and the L2 at 100 Lumens. I believe that to be accurate. If Surefire is now saying that the L4 is 100 lumens, then what does it make the L2? People were always saying that Surefire's lumen rating was conservative and other companies over rate their claim. I now believe that Surefire is doing exactly what the other companies were doing along. Claiming higher lumen readings to attract more sales.

I'm not trying to say that their products are over rated, but they are over priced. I own a few Surefire products and it's starting to burn a whole in my wallet. I just wished they came out with some more innovative products this year. Very Disappointed! :thumbsdow

THe L2, as size15 put it a while back, is a 15-hour run time light with a high output, whereas the L4 is driven to make constant light for about an hour then decline from there.

If you go to Quickbeam's website you will that the L2 out put dramtically drops over the 1st 20 minute or so. COincidnece? I think not.

Overpriced? I haven't seen any 5W light that can compete with Surefire's quality control in circutry and heatsinking in such a small pckage. When Streamlight or anyone of those cheap Asian light makers make a E2e sized 5W using higher binned emitters and have adaquate heatsinking then I'll believe it. I have had quite a few of those lights(competitors) and they don't even come close.

overpriced is a very arbitrary term when it's the only game in town....

metalhed · Mar 21, 2006

I must say, I do think Surefire's explanation of the lumen rating change is questionable, at the very least.

If the change is due to better measurements, then why just selected lights? Wouldn't one expect to see a rating change for the L4 and the L2? No, it's much more likely an emitter upgrade or circuitry change...perhaps due to improved availability of top bins.

The problem is, it's a crummy and insufficient answer to a legitimate question. Perhaps they don't think the average customer would understand the full and complete answer.

Regardless, Surefire still makes excellent lights. I doubt many of us will forgo our next purchase over the issue.

I know I won't.

KDOG3 · Mar 21, 2006

Well maybe they haven't tested the L2 with the new equipment yet. Or maybe the website isn't fully up to date. Or it could be possible that the individual who answered my email didn't quite know what he or she was talking about.

Maybe we should hold off judgement for a little while and get a few more people to contact them with similar questions, then gauge their response.

Surefire is probably still the best production light you can get, so I doubt I'll stop buying them either!

nutz_about_lights · Mar 21, 2006

Size15's said:
Then they will be found and lined up against the wall

Haha. Would agree with that.

Most well known companies have "agents" that enter the forums as innocent members and try to convince other people to buy their goods because they claim they are 'good' and are the best. So while it may be reliable check out a forum before buying something, be mindful of what you read and always see the real picture of the good and its performance before buying it.

Back to the topic, I have read that many people say that Surefire's ratings are credible, if not under-rated. Although I do not own a Surefire yet, I can conclude from numerous beamshots that Surefire lights are indeed outstanding, in terms of beam shape, brightness and body quality.

KevinL · Mar 21, 2006

In my mind my U2 and my L4 will always be 100 lumens.. I did get one of the first-generation U2s actually rated at 100lu (down to the literature and box), and my L4 is just as bright. I think I got lucky though, and got good W-bin emitters or perhaps even X-bin emitters (at least in the U2).

I'm no Surefire shill.. heck I don't even get to attend SHOT

I wonder what PK would have to say about all of this? Who better to ask than the Photon King himself?

Luna · Mar 21, 2006

KevinL said:
Who better to ask than the Photon King himself?

Marketing? :lolsign:

greenLED · Mar 21, 2006

270winchester said:
overpriced is a very arbitrary term when it's the only game in town....

Not only that, but the perception of price depends on the value you place on what a tool does for you. In my mind, SF lights are expensive, but not overpriced at all.

As to SF reps being "covert agents" and prompting people to buy their lights... :crackup:

Their products speak for themselves, as do many satisfied customers. They don't need to do that kind of marketing (sounds like urban legend, BTW); it's not like their trying to sell their lights to the "average Joe" anyway - all their lights are carefully designed with very specific uses in mind.

zespectre · Mar 21, 2006

psssst, hey kid, wanna bright light? First set of batteries are free! <grin>.

Seriously though, I keep having this vague feeling that Surefire today is not the Surefire I knew a few years back. I think this feeling has mostly come from the Q/C issues that started popping up around the middle of last year. Silly little stuff like lint and fingerprints and bad switches, but not the sort of things that should make it past QC on any light over $150 (let alone something like the U2).

In the end though, I'm pretty confident that Surefire is just going through some sort of growing pains (probably something we are completely unaware of) and will get back to shipshape soon. In the meantime I'm just waiting and watching.

Size15's · Mar 21, 2006

The rating is not a maximum any more than it is a minimum. The rating is an indication of typical performance based on data collected from production samples. The more production samples tested the more confidient they can be that the outputs are going to exceed the rating value. If they find the outputs are consistantly exceeding the rating value by a significant amount they may decide to increase the rating.

PK would likely say something along the lines of:
"The output of each flashlight is what it is. What does it matter? It's either too bright or not bright enough."

The output is a means of comparing the various SureFire products - not for comparing between brands because they likely rate output in completely different ways.

greenLED · Mar 21, 2006

Size15's said:
PK would likely say something along the lines of:
"The output of each flashlight is what it is. What does it matter? It's either too bright or not bright enough."

:laughing: That does sound like something he'd say.
I'd say they're not bright enough.

:nana:

bhds · Mar 21, 2006

Like most flashlight manufacturers Surefires numbers should be taken with a bit of healthy skepticism:thumbsdow After all, they are trying to sell you something?!

TORCH_BOY · Mar 21, 2006

I would like to know what the special light measuring instrument is

ABTOMAT · Mar 21, 2006

They're borrowing it from Mag-Lite. It's the one Mag's been using to rate their flashlights since last year.

greenLED · Mar 21, 2006

bhds said:
Like most flashlight manufacturers Surefires numbers should be taken with a bit of healthy skepticism:thumbsdow

Sure, but it's known that their numbers are by far the most "honest" ones we've seen; and this is consistent for all their products. If anything, they're conservative values, while other manufacturer's numbers... :green:

Interesting response from Surefire regarding new output numbers for L4 and L5....

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