New CentraLED based product?

We here at Central Tools have had such great feedback on our current product that we decided it is best that we tap into the huge knowledge base on this forum when starting the design process for a new product. We are currently working on a conventional flashlight utilizing the CentraLED light head but we need to put other projects in the pipeline.

It has been suggested that we consider a head light. This is an intriguing thought and we have begun research into the market and other head light offerings. However some questions have come up during internal discussions and we would like to know your thoughts on some of these issues/tradeoffs.

1. Run time vs. compactness/weight. Which is most important? If you had to sacrifice one for the other which would it be? I am referring mostly to a belt pack with a bunch of batteries possibly re-chargeable NiMh vs a couple of smaller batteries integrated into the head light itself.
2. How many brightness modes is really necessary. Many have 2 or 3 but I found some with 4 or 6 and even one with 9. Is there a point beyond which it matters? What number is considered necessary and acceptable.
3. Is strobe really critical?
4. I see a handfull of these with retail pricing in the high $100s, a good quantity between $75 and $100 and then a bunch below $50. Would a head light with the output of our CentraLED head and reasonable run times find an audience in the high $100s or does most of this world look to spend under $100?

Help with these questions as well as any other input you would like to offer will be greatly appreciated.

Bob

The Centraled would make a great headlight if compact enough. For me:

compact and light
3 brightness levels
integrated battery pack with a beltpack option
min of 2.5hr runtime
strobe is not necessary, but as a "free" option it is great
under $100

Thanks for asking

I don't know if what Jdriller is asking for is possible for under $100, but I do think he is "spot on" in his requirements, including price. I would add just one thing - the ability to use Li-ion batteries.

I think the CentraLED beam would make for a great headlight too. Most things a headlight is used for do not require great throw, and your beam profile would be terrific.

Light weight is great, but balance is important too. Having 3 or 4 AA cells in a pack on the back of the head would probably be fine, even with the shorter runtime on high. An option to run it off a belt pack for longer runtimes would be icing. Trying to put the light and cells together at the front of the headlight would make it awkward and unbalanced. That works OK for small, low powered headlamps but probably wouldn't work well for a larger, more powerful unit based on the Lamina and your optics.

As far as levels, I like at least 3, no more than 4:

1. One really low, night-vision preserving level
2. A medium level or two to provide 4-6 hours runtime
3. High level

Strobe and "SOS" is just about useless except as a marketing gimmick.

A price above $100 will certainly limit your market to those with a real need for your specific features. To get the mass market, it would almost certainly need to be below $50-$70. The same people that like your current CentraLED, i.e. mechanics and tradesmen, would probably really like one in a headlight form factor. Cavers and miners would probably like it a lot too.

One red LED for low level , medium level with an extended run time and a high. I would also suggest that there be an option for using either or battery pack on the back of the head or belt, ie having a power line that can plug into either based on the need.
Pricing can be for the lamp only and then for what ever option for the battery.
~ lower than $50- $75.

chris

ps , got one of your work lights on sale and its great.

Instead of a headlamp, how about a body you can clip on your belt, webbing, etc, not unlike the Pelican Big Ed? Even better, a torch that can function as either. (Even best, one with an optional handle with carry straps not unlike the AE Powerlight.) I'll gladly sacrifice size for run-time. I like small and light as much as the next guy, but having a battery fade is somewhere between annoying and detrimental depending on the circumstance. I'm a firm believer that we need more SAR options, and if i have something on my person that can take care of the near-field, i'm free to use whatever i'm carrying strictly for the distance stuff. Brightness levels are best used for extending battery life by allowing you to only use what you need. (Generally people need the light spread out, not simply less light, though i don't think most are in agreement.) The Spy and U2 have six levels, and for those particular torches i don't find that overkill because the U2 is my hiking/camping torch and the Spy my EDC torch, both of which need a long-use JIC (just in case) level. I'd rather have a dim always-on find-me mode than either a low or a strobe, though again, i like "more" as much as the next guy. (For the record, "blinky" finders, while better than nothing, are annoying hereiamwhereamihereiamwhereami). Price is a tricky subject. I think the likes of the Fenix at least infers that most people don't want to see a three-digit price, but the likes of the Spy, U2, 27LT, Gatlight, Barbolight, pickyourpoison prove that there are people who are willing to spend the money if it does what they want in the manner they want it done.

I have one of your CentraLED lights... I also have another on order with you. I even thought of creating a headlamp w/ the head only, but didn't want to get involved w/ creating a light, when I can just buy one.

My ultimate CentraLED headlamp would have...

A wide headband like the lupine version
http://www.gretnabikes.com/product.asp?product_ind=189&cat_ind=49

The light engine in front (obviously) and a battery pack in the rear. The battery pack would take 4 AA batteries. It should be similar in designe to the Princeton Tec Apex battery pack, except with plug. The battery pack would have a plug connector so it can be removed and the plug can be extended to a battery pack in my backpack/waist/etc.

The driver for should be able to take multiple voltages and provides dimming. I would have used: http://www.taskled.com/nflex.html This would give the option of running 4AA NiMh batteries or 4AA lithiums in the battery pack. It would also give the option of running a larger waist or bicycle water bottle pack of just about any voltage.

Runtime would be in the hands of the end user by changing brightness levels and battery packs.

Strobe and SOS functions are not needed.

If this was a waterproof design it would be much more desireable (bicycling, camping, caving, etc)

RETAIL Pricing....
You sell the head for $50 on another thread... Driver is retail for $25... Figure $10 for headband with battery housing (some mfg in China would jump on this in quantity)... $10 for misc... $10 for assembly
TOTAL $105 retail

Keep in mind... Lower pricing=more sales. More sales=lower costs. Just think if REI sold your headlamp... How many would their 80 or so stores sell? How many would sell at other similar specialty/high end sporting stores? My suggestion is to keep it in the mass market, but in the high end. If you want to increase profits, do it on accessories and options (dual head option, battery packs, optional optics, etc).

Just for the sake of clarifying a specification for the low level output.

Would it be fair to say that as long as you can read a book or magazine or map at arms length in the dark, that that is bright enough? Even if it does not light up much of the area around you, is that still adequate?

Bob

bpond said:

Just for the sake of clarifying a specification for the low level output.

Would it be fair to say that as long ahat is bright enough? Even if it does not light up much of the area around you, is you can read a book or magazine or map at arms length in the dark, that ts that still adequate?

Bob

Click to expand...

That sounds good to me!

Funny thing... My fiance will sometimes wear her Princeton Tec Apex to bed at night if she is going to read. I appreciate it, because it doesn't bother me like the overhead reading light. We told our friends and they had a good laugh about it while making some 'kinky' jokes. :naughty:

Actually, what I'd really like to see is a slightly upgraded version of your existing product.

I bought three of them at the Herrington's firesale (actually, I bought five, but the second order of two was screwed up by my foolishly including a (backordered) auto power cable in the same order. By the time cable arrived, the lights were sold out, and they canceled the order for the lights but sent me the cable. Grrrr).

It's a terrific portable worklight for my purposes (which are, admittedly, a bit esoteric and probably outside what you'd consider your target market), but there are a few improvements I'd like to see before I'd be willing to pay full price (or much more than the $50 bargain price) for more of them.

There's a lot that I like. It's obviously rugged, has a terrific beam, and makes just about ideal size/weight/runtime/brightness/flood tradeoffs. I appreciate being able to run it off the internal battery as well as AC and DC.

But a few things about it bug me. First, I REALLY don't like the battery and charging arrangement. It has a semi-proprietary battery pack, which I realize I could probably hack out and replace at the end of its life, but I really wish I could just pop in COTS batteries, ideally in the field and without tools. In particular, what if I want to use it for more than four hours without power available? I suppose I could carry a second light, but why should I have to do that just to get more runtime if I only need one lighthead? This also makes keeping up with rapidly improving battery technology difficult. In fact, you're ALREADY behind the curve with the 2160 mAh cells that were presumably close to state-of-the art when you specified them, but which have almost 1/3 less capacity than the best AA cells now available.

Also, I especially dislike the fact that the AC adaptor will overcharge the (not-easily-replaced, internal) battery if left on all the time with the lamp off. This means I can't use it as a semi-permanent "bench" light without remembering to unplug it every time after use. That's a shame, because I'd really like to take advantage of that nice beam and flex head on my workbench. I can see where this might work for someone who uses it all day (half the day, actually...) every day and then can charge it overnight, but that's not how I'd like to use it.

Finally, while I love the small compact size (and the clever hook into which the head can be tucked for storage), the permanently attached magnets mean I can't just put it in my toolcase without risking magnetizing ferrous objects with which it might come into contact. So I have to use the (nice but more than four times the volume of the light itself) case that you supply to keep everything safe. Don't get me wrong -- I like the magnets. It would just be nice if the they detached somehow so I could keep them in the case and take just the light with me when that's all I need.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, I do very much like this light (and I wish they had sent me the two more that I ordered!). I look forward to seeing what you come up with next.

Harry Caul

After my long review above, it occurs to me that I didn't answer your original question.

So, what about a headlight? Yes, I'd be interested in that. I agree with the comment above about including a low-level red; that's important to me. And ditto my comments in my previous post about using standard (and field-interchangable) batteries.

HCaul

bpond said:

Just for the sake of clarifying a specification for the low level output.

Would it be fair to say that as long as you can read a book or magazine or map at arms length in the dark, that that is bright enough? Even if it does not light up much of the area around you, is that still adequate?

Bob

Click to expand...

Bob,
For those of us of declining vision, the amount of light needed for reading is vastly different from those young whippersnappers with younger eyes.

:lolsign:

1. Run time vs. compactness/weight.

For me, run time. May be true for cavers and SAR guys?

2. How many brightness modes is really necessary.

3

3. Is strobe really critical?

Not for me. May be critical to dedicated hikers?

4. Price?

That's a tough one. At $70.00 bucks I think many flashlight guys would jump on it. Problem is I don't see how that's possible considering some of the expensive components used in the CentraLED head.

For higher end your market may be cavers and maaaaybe hikers. I'm sure you guys know what high end markets would go for it better than I do. I'd be trying to market it to the medical profession.

Good luck what ever you decide.

- Jeff

I've been looking for a headlamp. Here are a few thoughts, in no particular order:

If you're going to go for small, try to make something not much bigger than a Zipka, with maybe 2AAs, or maybe a single CR123. If you're going to make it much bigger than the Zipka, make it big enough, and balance it by putting the batteries in back.

There is a market in Alaska for really bright, really reliable headlamps which can take lithium batteries; dogmushers love them. Mushers and probably cavers like the option of hooking their headlamp onto a hat.

Make the circuits robust enough to handle the 1.7V lithium batteries, if you design for AA or AAA batteries. Make sure that it will function on the NiMH batteries, too. Make it robust enough for the 4+V lithium-ion rechargables if you design for the CR123 cells.

If you're going to put the battery pack in the back, you might as well design for 4AA, with the option to have a 2CR123 battery holder. You could also sell optional longer cords, to allow the battery pack to be kept warm under one's coat, instead of on the headband. Cavers might want to be able to unplug from one battery pack on their belt, and plug into a second pack which is right beside it.

Now, taking your questions seriatim:

1: Run time versus compactness are different lights, and I would want one or the other, but not a compromise. Right now, I'd lean towards a large light, but that's partly because I already have a Zipka for reading in bed.

2: Two or maybe three levels would be plenty for me. Maybe a Luxeon with high and low, and a few Nichias for reading up close?

3: The only use for a strobe is to light up the clouds, and be visible to searchers on the other side of the hill. LEDs aren't going to do that. A ``strobe,'' or any kind of blinky mode, sounds totally useless to me.

4: Can't speak for anyone else about price, but I've been considering this light ( http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=874 ) or this one ( http://www.amondotech.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=867 ). The prices are about right. I'd go a bit higher for something which had more of the features I mentioned above. I've been looking at the Princeton Tec Apex, but it's a bit pricy for me. If the Apex's price included a 2CR123 battery holder, I'd probably go for it.

I'll be looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Nels

Brilliant post, Nels.

I hadn't thought of the mushers. Now I'm thinking mountain climbers?

When you said, "You could also sell optional longer cords, to allow the battery pack to be kept warm under one's coat, instead of on the headband." I thought that was an outstanding idea.

- Jeff

bpond said:

1. Run time vs. compactness/weight. Which is most important? If you had to sacrifice one for the other which would it be? I am referring mostly to a belt pack with a bunch of batteries possibly re-chargeable NiMh vs a couple of smaller batteries integrated into the head light itself.
2. How many brightness modes is really necessary. Many have 2 or 3 but I found some with 4 or 6 and even one with 9. Is there a point beyond which it matters? What number is considered necessary and acceptable.
3. Is strobe really critical?
4. I see a handfull of these with retail pricing in the high $100s, a good quantity between $75 and $100 and then a bunch below $50. Would a head light with the output of our CentraLED head and reasonable run times find an audience in the high $100s or does most of this world look to spend under $100?

Click to expand...

I consider the PT Apex as my favourite headlamp and use it frequently. So here my answers to your question based on the shortcomings I think the Apex has:
1. I do miss the option of beeing able to have a longer cord for a separate battery pack. Very important is the possibility to use all sorts of batteries. There are many good and cheap compact sized headlamps out there.
2. On my Apex I use frequently the spot on high, the flood on high and low (3 levels). Beeing able to switch between spot and flood is something I really apreciate. I am missing a very low level (not red, e.g for sitting around in the dark and have some sort of light without destroying night visibility). So 4 levels would just be about perfect.
3. I personally never used the strobe on any of my lights. But somehow I like the idea of having a strobe mode, e.g. while having a car emergency. But to be honest, it is not very critical.
4. I think for a larger audience the light needs to be below $100.

bpond said:

1. Run time vs. compactness/weight. Which is most important? If you had to sacrifice one for the other which would it be? I am referring mostly to a belt pack with a bunch of batteries possibly re-chargeable NiMh vs a couple of smaller batteries integrated into the head light itself.
2. How many brightness modes is really necessary. Many have 2 or 3 but I found some with 4 or 6 and even one with 9. Is there a point beyond which it matters? What number is considered necessary and acceptable.
3. Is strobe really critical?
4. I see a handfull of these with retail pricing in the high $100s, a good quantity between $75 and $100 and then a bunch below $50. Would a head light with the output of our CentraLED head and reasonable run times find an audience in the high $100s or does most of this world look to spend under $100?

Help with these questions as well as any other input you would like to offer will be greatly appreciated.

Bob

Click to expand...

Bob,

Thanks, first of all, for requesting our input. Your company already has a deservedly good reputation on this site, and this only bolsters that. It's nice to see a manufacturer who "listens."

From my very eclectic experience, having both a larger high-end incandescent headlamp with a 4AA pack on the back (bought over 10 years ago) and a smaller 3AAA integrated on the front led headlamp (bought over 5 years ago), and having used both in caves, rappelling at night, and in and around campsites as a scoutmaster, as well as working with them in my yard late at night (used the led headlamp Saturday night, used yours last night), here's my take on your questions:

Your light would be EXCELLENT packaged as a headlamp. :rock:

Runtime vs. Compactness is the age-old quandry. Everyone wants eleventybillion lumens coming out of something the size and weight of a marble (including power supply). That's not going to happen anytime soon. Your light reflector/lens/etc. is already on the large side for what goes into a headlamp. Combining the head with the batteries on the front isn't practical, as it would be huge and heavy. As has been stated before, it's going to have to have a separate battery compartment, with an unpluggable wire. If you're doing that, go with as much runtime as possible. 4AA seems to be an ideal, nicely square formfactor, not too big or too small. Possibly 6AA in a rectangular format. Don't "stack" them, though. Keep it thin so it's comfy in a pocket, or hugs the back of your head.

Brightness modes: 3 or 4 would be fine. I certainly can't ever see myself using more than 3. I think 6 is overkill, and 9 or more is (imho) ridiculous. If lowest is bright enough to read a newspaper article at arms length, it's fine.

Strobe: not only not critical, but depending on how it's accessed it can be downright annoying. I haven't come across any reason to use a strobe function... ever. If I was lost at night, disabled, and knew people were looking for me and I knew what direction they were coming from or something - maybe, but I wouldn't ever consider lack of strobe a negative when considering a light. I actually own an led flashlight that has strobe function - one press for on, another press for strobe, another press for off. It's horribly annoying to have to go through strobe and another button press to turn the stupid thing off every time. It lives in my glovebox for emergency use only now. If you're going to include strobe, make it easily avoidable, otherwise it gets annoying.

Price. Price, price, price. This is where it gets really tough for you guys. I'd say definitely under $100. There are very few people who would use these in any kind of "professional" way. Sure there are the few well-fundeds who summit Everest, etc. and will pay $200 or more for a light because they don't care what it costs. That's a limited and specialized market. The VAST majority of the market are people like me, who camp or cave or hike or climb as a hobby. They want something that does the job well, understand that is usually expensive, and will pay for it if it's an outstanding product. BUT, they have families to support and limited budgets, and $80 for a light which they'll use infrequently for a hobby is a significant investment. I'd say if you can get it between $75-$99, it's a definite winner. Maybe even as high as $125, but more than that I don't think you'll sell too many of em.

Anxious to see what you guys come up with. If you need a 'beta tester' for a prototype, let me know. :naughty:

I would be very interested in a headlamp based on the optics, heatsink, etc of the worklight. I jog everyday along the curb in residential streets at 4am. No one would see me except for the rabbits and newspaper delivery guys. I have been tinkering with the thought of attaching the worklight to the one of the metal plates in my head (the magnets on the side laying flush to the top of head). Point that neck and head straight ahead. Might attach a short yellow adjustable luggage strap under my chin and over the worklight. Weight is an issue as well as the issue of getting too close to the metal street light pole and my head clanging against it.

Archangel said:

Instead of a headlamp, how about a body you can clip on your belt, webbing, etc, not unlike the Pelican Big Ed? Even better, a torch that can function as either. (Even best, one with an optional handle with carry straps not unlike the AE Powerlight.) .

Click to expand...

Good idea how about adding a 3 watt or even FIVE watt Green LED!
in addition to a few snow white Luxeons!!!!!:rock:

tsask said:

Good idea how about adding a 3 watt or even FIVE watt Green LED!
in addition to a few snow white Luxeons!!!!!:rock:

Click to expand...

We really appreciate all the ideas, and keep them coming! But on the other hand I just wanted to point out that we are talking about a second application for the CentraLED lamphead... not starting the design from a totally clean sheet of paper here. CentraLED uses a Lamina BL2000, not Luxeon.