Any thoughts on what the jetbeam mil spec might be?

Just when I thought it couldn't get any better, jetbeam now says on their website there's going to be a be mil spec light. But I honestly don't see what else they can do to their lights to make them more durable or tactical than they are now (besides knurling).:thinking:

D@rk Messenger said:

But I honestly don't see what else they can do to their lights to make them more durable or tactical than they are now (besides knurling).:thinking:

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They can raise the price. Add the word "tactical" to a product, make it black, and the price goes up!

Maybe they put a better circuit in it. The one it has now is horribly inefficient.

Chevrofreak, given the output and runtimes of the Jetbeam, the statement "horribly inefficient" seems to be incorrect. Check the results that Quickbeam got compared to other similar lights. There seems to be some discrepincies between your results and his

TheIlluminator said:

Chevrofreak, given the output and runtimes of the Jetbeam, the statement "horribly inefficient" seems to be incorrect. Check the results that Quickbeam got compared to other similar lights. There seems to be some discrepincies between your results and his

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Based on what I've seen it *is* very inefficient, especially on Lithium Ion cells. From my measurements the Jet puts out 17% more light and runs less than 1/2 as long, in some cases less than 1/3 as long. Theres a lot of energy being wasted somewhere, and that is directly related to efficiency, whether the power is wasted in the circuit or is just wasted in the battery itself.

chevrofreak said:

Maybe they put a better circuit in it. The one it has now is horribly inefficient.

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I think my JET has more inefficient than my fenix L1P V2.5.
when used AA batt,JET and L1P is almost the same current,but JET seems produce more light! On the other side,The runtime of JET is little longer than my L1P 2...what's the matter?

chevrofreak said:

Based on what I've seen it *is* very inefficient, especially on Lithium Ion cells. From my measurements the Jet puts out 17% more light and runs less than 1/2 as long, in some cases less than 1/3 as long. Theres a lot of energy being wasted somewhere, and that is directly related to efficiency, whether the power is wasted in the circuit or is just wasted in the battery itself.

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chevrofreak
I enjoy your charts and comments I recall and enjoyed your AAA Clone posts and bought some. But I take issue to these latest posts by you.

Is this a veiled Fenix promo/ad/knock? As long as you carry the Fenix logo emblazoned in your signature I must regard you as an employee/partner or spokesperson with a vested interest in Fenix, there's no mistaking it's an Ad. Your Fenix Sherrif's Badge and spurs dug deep into Dark Messengers reverie and was patently obvious. Competition is healthy let it be, your unbiased work is valued and appreciated in the CPF spirit.
The repeat statement above quoted from your runtime post a few days ago on 07-15-06 0:627 is confusing as it was titled JetBeam Jet I on rechargeables. Should it not, have read JetBeam Jet-I vs Fenix PI as your sub heading reads? It seems intentional, as it was really a comparison to the Fenix and was surprising, as you usually name the competitors eg. "New Fenix Light runtimes LIT l2T and Civictor updates." It was distressing to see the Fenix dealer so highly thought of by CPF members as favorite dealer, state: at 0:748 after your post "Fenix PI totally owns Jet I it's brighter and runs twice as long." You respond at 0:903. "Yes it absolutely does. "This looks like collusion and a set-up. Playing off each other. Was this runtime test done with the JetBeam #7 on the CPF preorder list, purchased by 4 sevens on the CPF sale, shipped May 2/06?
Others have mentioned discrepencies in your tests and conflicts with FL Reviews and LEDcandles reports and light box readings and tests. When you scrambled to recheck your batteries .......... Reading between the lines noting verbiage and conflicts of interest our CPF'rs motto is buy both. I will buy a L2T when greenies are no longer reported, is that fair?
I notice no mention of AA? I had not intended to say anything until I saw this post.

Dark Messenger I agree with you! Brightness, whiteness, throw and build quality CPF's most valued attributes, what more do we need? Three way switch w/ clip coming!

Doug @ FL Reviews says "this little pocket rocket is the closest thing you'll probably come to a completely custom flash.light "and concludes: "Overall the JetBeam Jet I an excellent light . Well designed, very bright, and very versatile. I consider the Jet-I to be a premium , essentially custom , light and in my opinion it is a bargain at the offered price.. You may have to do some slight adjustments on this first run of thre Jet-I, but I'm still giving it 5 Stars." The Master has spoken.

Pax Vobiscum, Marlite

Let me make some things very clear for you.


David Chow (aka 4sevens) who owns and operates fenix-store.com is a friend of mine. The same goes for Jon Burlison (JonSidneyB) and for that reason alone I have links to their stores in my sig line. I do not get paid for it in any form other than continued friendship.


There is no consipiracy to promote Fenix products. I test the lights that are sent to me, or lights that I personally own using the limited equipment that I have, and I then report the results. I do not even get to keep the lights that are sent for testing, so I get very few benefits from it other than handling lights I will probably never own. The testing is done at cost, or often with me losing some money on it due to battery purchases or return shipping. David did indeed compensate me for all of the expenses I incurred during testing of the new Fenix products by giving me one of the test lights. I do not expect more from him, I provide these runtimes to him because he is a friend.


He responded quickly to the thread because I posted a link to it in the CPF chat room.


The Fenix P1 RCR123 lines were added to the Jetbeam graphs simply because the Fenix P1 is the most direct competitor to the Jetbeam and is the light that most people will be comparing to it. The same goes for the Fenix L1P vs the Jetbeam on an AA.


I stated right away in the thread that the Duracell 2650 line for the Jetbeam didn't seem right and that I would be retesting it. I knew there was no way I would be getting the same runtime from a 2650 that Quickbeam got from a 2300 since even the 2500's blow the 2300's away, and the 2650's blow the 2500's away. There was infact something wrong, the battery I used did not get fully charged as sometimes happens with my Sanyo charger. I charged another battery and ran it again, then replaced the old line with the new more accurate one.


I love my Fenix products and I continually recomend them to people looking for the best value for the dollar mid level light they can get. This is because I believe Fenix makes a superior product to all of the companies trying to copy their success, be they Triton, Jetbeam, or Ultrafire. The original Fenix products are proving to be more efficient than their recent competitors. The only one I've seen that comes close is the Jetbeam on an AA cell.


I believe the Jetbeam I tested was indeed the #7 that 4sevens bought. I see on emillions website that there is a Jetbeam MKII now available with a new circuit that has multiple levels. I certainly hope there were some upgrades made to the circuit so that it makes more use of an RCR123 than the original one did.


I am currently building an integrating sphere to replace my aluminum foil covered gallon milk jug as an "overall output" meter. When that is done I will incorporate those results into future runtime charts by taking an overall output measurement and adjusting the starting point of the line to match. Quickbeam already does this, and it is a good idea. My milkjug was far from accurate enough to use for this purpose though. It has also only been a recent thing that I am now able to adjust the lines by using a multiplier, which is all thanks to a good friend writing some software for me.


If you are unsatisfied with my results then feel free to donate money or equipment to the cause. Everything I do is paid for out of my own pockets, and I do not have much to spend on equipment purchases or batteries.

If I had my way I'd have every piece of equipment I could use, from a real integrating sphere to a spectrograph and even some decent chargers so I don't have problems with cells not being full. That isn't likely to ever happen so I try to get by with what I have and improve where I can with what I can.

Thank you fo ryour post where you actually responded to most of the queries I had. You hold a position of influence and power on these forums so disclosures of alliances is all the more important. We would have no way of knowing how you would be compensated when your zeal to point out a competitors failing, benefits your friends. My post did not involve Jon as he did benefit as a competitor.

I am now in a position to accept that your defense is one of friendship but to be a reviewer you must be impartial. If Jet-I MK II next week was heads and shoulders better than Fenix, would you trash Fenix or redo runtimes beneficial to Jet-I? Fenix for having a green color tint poorly spaced hi-lo and offend David? David aka 4 sevens is one of the best dealers here as I see him continually help CPF'rs that bought from others, encounter problems and cheerfully made good by him!

"The Fenix PI RCR123 lines were added to the JetBeam graphs simply because the PI is the closest direct competitor to the JetBeam and is the one most people will be comparing it to. The same goes for the Fenix Lip to the JetBeam on an AA." :huh2:

That's the crux of my query it was listed as JetBeam runtimes on rechargeables and in your statement above it says "the Fenix PI RCR123 lines were added to the JetBeam graphs simply because PI is the closest competitor." That's misleading to say the least.
Your avowed love for Fenix products and friendship has colored this thread and the comparisons, equal time was not given to the Jet-I AA vs Fenix Lip.

I will chalk this up to your passion for your hard work but I think your title should be changed to:

JetBeam Vs Fenix PI. ----- Same as your subtitle.

Marlite

Pax Vobiscum

It never fails that someone will ask for a comparisson graph between two lights. I figured I might as well get it out of the way up front. People wanted to see the Triton P1 against the L1P, so thats what I did. I even adjusted the output of the Triton to match the L1P in initial brightness because my POS light integrating jug said they had nearly identical overall outputs. When it came to doing the P1 vs Jet-I graph I didn't think the texture on the reflector would make all that much difference. To my naked eye the P1 and Jet-I were around the same brightness, and the beams looked nearly identical. The texturing of the reflector of the Jet isn't very heavy and I didn't think it diffused the beam as much as it actually does. Being pretty much the same reflector as the P1, minus the texture, I figured it would be alright to compare them directly. Later testing in my integrating jug proved that to be untrue as my readings on RCR123's put the Jetbeam at 17% more total output.

Perhaps my friendship with 4sevens and him being the one to supply the Jet for testing did come across in what was said in the thread, but I've always tried to be impartial when writing things. When I make up my mind about whether or not I like something, it tends to be heavily in one direction or another.

I was shocked at how short the runtimes were on the RCR123's, some being 1/3 what the P1 did. Discharging a Li-Ion cell in under 20 minutes is also exceeding the 3C current rate that people consider to be the maximum. With the JSBurly's cell being depleted in under 13 minutes that's something like 4.5C draw, which could infact damage the battery.

So, my intiial disappointment probably carried over into what I said as well.

chevrofreak said:

I was shocked at how short the runtimes were on the RCR123's, some being 1/3 what the P1 did. Discharging a Li-Ion cell in under 20 minutes is also exceeding the 3C current rate that people consider to be the maximum. With the JSBurly's cell being depleted in under 13 minutes that's something like 4.5C draw, which could infact damage the battery.

So, my intiial disappointment probably carried over into what I said as well.

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Yikes, are you serious?

Are you saying the JetBeam (if I'm following and understanding this correctly), eats one of those cells in under 20 minutes?

Where did you get the 3C from, alot of these little cells are not rated for 3C, especially if you get ahold of the manufacturer's datasheet. Personally, I avoid any battery reseller that doesn't provide manufacturer's datasheets.

It isn't a good thing to heat these cells up too much, and if you are depleting these cells in that timeframe, I'll bet things get pretty darn toasty, which certainly is not a good idea for the cell or for one's own safety.

Are these lights only intended for momentary operation, like those little Photons from LRI, or a real flashlight that is intended for continous operation? Some have said that off the RCR123 they get only 13 minutes of runtime, is there any easy way for the end-user to fix this problem?

Is it the circuit inside that is burning so much power up, or is the emitter seeing all of that power?

Maybe they could just state the JetBeam should not be used with rechargeable lithium-ion cells.

3C is just a number I've seen thrown around on CPF for some various Li-ion cells. I don't know if thats actually considered safe or not. I thought I read somewhere on CPF a few years ago that it wasnt recomended to go above 2C, but recently seeing people say 3C and whatnot, I dont know.....

What would you consider safe for a typical 16340 or 17340 Li-Ion? We haven't been seeing many if any explosions, but I've heard of cells that died pretty fast from that kind of use.

No idea, but looking at actual datasheets for various cells, I've seen 1.2C to 2C.

One would need to obtain the actual manufacturer's datasheet to really know, it varies with manufacturer and cell.

An example of a r123 cell datasheet is found here, note the 550mAH rating and 1100mA absolute maximum discharge, which puts it at 2C (1100/550=2C)

Regulated:
http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/RCR123A 3.0v.doc

Unregulated:
http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/RCR123a 3.6v.doc


Another brand r123 cell (RCR123/RCR17335) 700mAH rated for 1050mA maximum discharge, which is 1.5C:
http://www.greatpowerhk.com/en/images/pdf/Li-ion-Cylindrical Battery/ICR17335.pdf

Definately sounds like its venturing into dangerous territory for discharge rates.