word on primaries safety?

not to begin another booooooorrrrrring long thread repeating what previous threads has already depicted, but this puzzles me...in a good way

After a series of shocking threads about lithium primaries exploding in aluminum lights, the "orange alert" abruptly stopped and now, as if plunged into uncertainty, I saw few thread reflecting what had happened, other than the few members who compiled all the evidence and provided excellent safety warnings and application precautions. :thumbsup:

Several of the unfortunate accidents we've read on the forum occured while the flashlight is in use, and heat became the theorized reason for the venting, that an the "reverse charge concept." However having used several pairs of surefire primaries in incandescents, each time one battery is dead, the other still functions, I find the concept to be hard to believe, but im not an experienced user nor do I work in this field so I wont draw conclusions. Also, I sent a PM long ago to Quickbeam that reflects his experience with primaries, our reviewer here who runs batteries to exhaustion for the runtime graphs has never experienced thermal runaway or venting from his experiments. So, in my opinion, this "heat theory" is also questionable

My question, aside from the user intervention of "mixing cells or use cells of different capacities or brands," has manufacturers increased QC and thereby preventing these accidents from occuring?
and has there been anymore accidents relating to primaries?

No expert here but equally fascinated with the topic. Seems that Newbie has never been able to get a Surefire cell or Duracell to vent with flames, no matter how far pushed. I'm not 100% sure on this but this is my understanding. And I have not heard of more incidents of venting with flames in the past three months.

Well, I got caught up in the worry at first too, in fact it was the reason I joined this forum to vent my (pun intended) dismay at yet another problem with CR123A's (price being the primary annoyance). But after a while, and comments from others with cooler heads and wits, it dawned on me that, yes, it is all about quality. Buying cheap batteries, cutting corners, pinching pennies and you end up what you pay for, cells that test well below the acceptable levels, have thin shells, fragile seals and who knows what other risks and or problems.

Dropped cells, dropped lights, cheap abysmal quality batteries, super high current draw incandescent lights, storing flashlights with the CR123A's inside after heavy current drain and or trauma, leading to venting and rupture etc.,

I can sleep at night now knowing that low current drain LED flashlights with premium CR123A's purchased fresh from reputable dealers, stored properly and respected, and used in top quality flashlights that have a low risk of developing shorts (from poor switch design for example), will be quite safe after all. But I won't be buying any more flashlights that use Cr123A's... for price and total cost of ownership concerns, not safety reasons. There are some good 4AA LED flashlights out there now, especially by Princeton Tec and Streamlight. 3 or 4 hours of good steady regulated light for $1 worth of normal AA's!

after the Peli P6 thread showing the vented remains of a surefire primary I've been extra careful...but almost as a normal tendency, when a 2 cell incan stops functioning, and I pull out my cheap craftsman voltmeter, one will register at 3V and the other registering zip....thats the scary part, If in fact the "reverse-charge" concept was proven to be true, then I'm in trouble

Here's the thing. We need a way to test a batteries IR (internal resistance) at normal load about 1 amp at 3 or 6 volts so 3 or 6 watts for most lights from the battery rechargables are rated on their IR as one way to match a good set of batteries that will work well together. If on ebattery has a 2 milliohm resistance and the other 4 milliohms the second battery will get hotter and have less used capacity (most will be heat) this is the biggest problem that battery will also become dead quite fast and get quite warm.

oooh...:candle:

sounds like someone should create a bin code for new batteries

I think this is where manufacturing quality comes in. When you check out the recent 2.5A test runs in SilverFox 123 shootout thread it becomes evident how the U.S. manufactured cells have such great stability when pushed to the limit.

i wonder...was the primaries designed to be pushed to the limit, or simply designed for greater capacity with minimal footprint?

Apparently Surefire incans literally push them to the limit as the resistence of filament dwindles as it heats up, im not sure whether the design interface had the error of "pushing" these cells too hard or simply the existing argument of bad QC.

Another apparent question appeared, the accidents we've seen only occured in two celled lights. No single celled cases, nor 3+ cell cases.

The highest continuous drain rate in the specs sheet is on the Duracells at 1.5A. Kodak cells are specified for 800ma continuous, and that is about the lowest I have seen. No manufacturer specifies or recommends 2.5A. But Surefire says it is OK to do a continuous run at 2.5A using their cells and they developed the M6 with Duracell batteries. SilverFox says the cells all got up to 140F during the test, but the warning labels say do not heat above 200F. So, is it OK ? I guess so if all things are in place and if we use good, stable batteries like Duracell procell or Ultras or even Panasonics and Surefires, all at 100% checked.

Oh, and Duracell has the highest pulse for the cells at 5A. No other manufacturer that I know of specifies 5A max. pulse.

LED61 said:

Oh, and Duracell has the highest pulse for the cells at 5A. No other manufacturer that I know of specifies 5A max. pulse.

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5 AMPS? what kind of application are you going to need a 5 amp pulse?

There is no need to worry so much. The cells can actually take a lot. I know some cells can do weird things but there is also a lot of FUD on explosions etc. One Duracell engineer told me they've never had a cell "explode". And if you really want to put your mind at ease, read here

http://www.duracell.com/oem/primary/Lithium/safety.asp#design

According to this, even the stressful 2.5 amp draw which heats the cells to 140F, has them apparently well within the "safe" operating temperatures.

What are "primaries" ?

cells going is basically the worst case scenario we can ever afford here.

wasnt there a case somewhere about a "safety vent" cap opening when the cell was apparently shorted but never closed back up?
thats a diaster waiting to happen.

well, good to know some elements of reassurance from Duracell engineers :goodjob:

primary cells are non rechargable earth killing batteries
while secondary cells are rechargable earth saving cells
then there are 3rdindary units which use a different method to preduce electricity like light (solar) generators and house power.

You guys ever see those batteries in those dollar stores? Mostly you get name brand carbon zinc batteries for the buck, but I have seen name brand rip-off like Energy-miser, and Duro-cell (with copper top).

Those things must leak like post nasel drip. I can't think of single application where I would want to trust those third world batteries.

tron3 said:

You guys ever see those batteries in those dollar stores? Mostly you get name brand carbon zinc batteries for the buck, but I have seen name brand rip-off like Energy-miser, and Duro-cell (with copper top).

Those things must leak like post nasel drip. I can't think of single application where I would want to trust those third world batteries.

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um...notice we're discussing lithium primaries here?
not alkaline or carbon zinc variant cells. I agree with you on your claim, EDITED

[Offtopic]
Illum_the_nation: I think that since leakage is a safety issue; alkaline and carbon zinc cells are primaries that maybe it should be discussed. The only thing I need to add to that portion is that my TV tuner card (remote won't work) had a remote that came with such cells (printed with Chinese characters) and they could be dented by fingers alone.
[/Offtopic]

Anyway, I think that maybe some tests should be done on other lithium primary varieties (especially the AA and AAA cells). This will prove (or disprove) the danger of such cells. I think it would be best to do such tests with 2.0 AMP pulses as these are what is encountered in digital cameras.

jrmcferren said:

I think that since leakage is a safety issue; alkaline and carbon zinc cells are primaries that maybe it should be discussed.

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Interesting, thanks for suggesting that area, my apologies tron3...I dont have much experience of carbon zinc cells, but I agree with you about the cell leakage being an issue that will ultimately destroy lights if not detected.

jrmcferren said:

I think it would be best to do such tests with 2.0 AMP pulses as these are what is encountered in digital cameras.

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I dont have the equipment to run a load of any current without safety issues...and the tolerances must be set very rigid or the end result may be invalid...im not sure what kind of eqipment would be needed..

I dont think theres any camera out there that still runs on lithium cr123as are there?