Are we going in the wrong direction?

Zendude · Sep 12, 2008

Hello All,

long time lurker...you know the drill.
What drew me to the LED in the first place was reliability and improved battery life. That was the only weakness in my mini mag(still love it though). So after a lot of deliberation and research(hence the lurking) I settled on the Fenix L1D and LOVE IT. I bought E01's for me and the kids and a red L0D for my wife(we love them). About a week later the Nitecore D10 came out...:ironic: You couldn't imagine the look on my face...oh wait...you probably could. I really liked the idea of getting rid of the clicky to improve reliability. A step in the right direction.
I can't help but wonder if we're moving in the wrong direction with all the fancy circuitry and UI(even though it made it possible to get rid of the clicky). Are we now decreasing the reliability of our lights? The hot-cold cycles can't be good for the solder joints or the chips(and some lights do get hot). Within 6 months I've had to replace the circuit board in my furnace and the convergence chips in my RPTV because of this. It's second nature to be gentle with electronics because of the fragile nature of the components and as we cram more and more into these lights and drive them harder it means more things CAN go wrong. Sometimes simplicity is a good thing. Just a thought.

P.S. I just got my D10 GDP with the slotted piston today! And yes that is a sucking sound you hear! :broke:

I know, I'm a hypocrite.

asdalton · Sep 12, 2008

It's hard to tell. Having more parts will increase the probability of failure if everything else is the same--including the quality of the components and of the manufacturing process. But these things are very often not the same.

For a simple example, consider the D cell Mag flashlight versus the AA Mini-Mag. The D cell light has a mechanically more complicated switch, but it is also more reliable than the twist switch of the AA Mag light. One reason for this difference is that the Mini-Mag switch has a small contact area that is vulnerable to dirt and corrosion, and it is inaccessible for cleaning. The D cell Mag switch has a rotating contact that cleans itself. So in this case, a superior design outweighs the effect of adding more components.

There are many other lights with twist switches that are very reliable, because they have a larger area of contact and can typically be cleaned by the user.

I prefer lights with simple interfaces, but not because of any calculation of reliability. For that purpose, it is far more productive to go by the reputation of the particular light or its manufacturer.

Marduke · Sep 12, 2008

You're absolute right, the more we cram in the less reliable they are. But then I think about those old $1 2D grocery store plastic jobs most people have, which only work when new, and have to be smacked constantly to get it to stay on and stop flickering.

Oh, and :welcome:

nerdgineer · Sep 12, 2008

It kind of depends on how hard you want to chase reliability vs. its' various tradeoffs (convenience, cost, flexibility, etc.). Many of us do NOT see an EDC as a life/death sort of thing and so are willing to compromise some for those other features.

Luckily, in this well populated market, there are lots of lights which balance things just fine for my tastes (like most of the spring loaded twisty types, preferably on sale..) and for other people's tastes as well.

By the way, I think one of the most reliable switches ever made were the old fashioned side slide switch with a button we used to have. When well made (not the crappy ones now...), they have large contact surfaces, are self cleaning due to slide action, have a momentary, and are very compact. They just aren't waterproof, but we had an old Sears 2D stainless flashlight which was used and abused for many decades and never failed (bulbs and batteries yes, light no), even in lots of rain.

I wouldn't mind a well made (in the Sears ribbed stainless pattern) such light in 1xAA with a good Cree front end. THAT would be nice, even if not completely waterproof.

frank777 · Sep 12, 2008

Although there are some exceptions, in general, electronic components tend to be EXTREMELY reliable. It is quite common for a solid-state circuit board to function continuously for 20 years without failure. Many flashlight failures occur because of mechanical components corroding or breaking. One could easily make the case that modern automobiles are much more complicated than in the past, yet reliability continues to increase dramatically. The same is true with modern flashlights. Although they are becoming more complicated, they are also steadily becoming more reliable.

EngrPaul · Sep 12, 2008

:welcome:

I think in general the flashlight community is seeing a higher quality product from our favorite suppliers.

Reliabililty is based on a series of components that have a lifespan. The $1 cheapie mentioned has very few components in series, but the components have a very short lifespan (bare copper, heat staked plasic, etc). :ohgeez:

You can increase the complexity as long as no individual component has a risk of short lifespan. Anytime a shortcut is taken, the whole flashlight can suffer. This is why product purchased from overseas retailers are have such a high failure rate. :sigh:

I've purchased hundreds of DX/KD flashlights and upgraded the emitters for resale. They start out as very nice flashlights, but a shortcut is often taken. Poor quality switch, bad threading, bad soldering, no heat sinking under the emitter, emitters soldered backwards, bad o-rings, bad contacts to the switch in the tailcap are just a few examples. I've had as much as 70% fallout for some items.

The other problem is new flashlight technology brings horsepower freaks out of the woodwork. They want maximum output. This results in some of the components being pushed to their limits. This shortens their lifespan, hence an unreliable flashlight. :poof:

The best flashlight to buy is one that's been out a little while, and takes advantage of components functioning in a moderate range of their capabilities. You can get a good amount of light with good runtime and good reliability at a reasonable price. :kiss:

But what fun is that? :naughty:

superflytnt · Sep 12, 2008

EngrPaul said:
:welcome:

I think in general the flashlight community is seeing a higher quality product from our favorite suppliers.

Reliabililty is based on a series of components that have a lifespan. The $1 cheapie mentioned has very few components in series, but the components have a very short lifespan (bare copper, heat staked plasic, etc).

You can increase the complexity as long as no individual component has a risk of short lifespan. Anytime a shortcut is taken, the whole flashlight can suffer. This is why product purchased from overseas retailers are have such a high failure rate. :sigh:
I've purchased hundreds of DX/KD flashlights and upgraded the emitters for resale. They start out as very nice flashlights, but a shortcut is often taken. Poor quality switch, bad threading, bad soldering, no heat sinking under the emitter, emitters soldered backwards, bad o-rings, bad contacts to the switch in the tailcap are just a few examples. I've had as much as 70% fallout for some items.
The other problem is new flashlight technology brings horsepower freaks out of the woodwork. They want maximum output. This results in some of the components being pushed to their limits. This shortens their lifespan, hence an unreliable flashlight.
The best flashlight to buy is one that's been out a little while, and takes advantage of components functioning in a moderate range of their capabilities. You can get a good amount of light with good runtime and good reliability at a reasonable price. :kiss:
But what fun is that? :naughty:

I think that what you meant to say is SOME overseas (from the U.S.?)retailer's right?

datiLED · Sep 12, 2008

I have several lights with MCU, including an HDS B60 and the NiteCore EX10 and D10. I am still drawn to my Arc LSH-P. It has been modded with a Seoul LED, but is still using the original unmodified circuit board. I love the simplicity of the light, and the solid feel. I have never worried that it wouldn't turn on, or would develop a glitch in it's program. Old school, baby! :thumbsup:

EngrPaul · Sep 12, 2008

superflytnt said:
I think that what you meant to say is SOME overseas (from the U.S.?)retailer's right?

Yes, my significant experience is limited to two retailers from outside the USA.

Patriot · Sep 12, 2008

I don't personally think we're going in the wrong direction. The good quality lights available today are as good as they're ever been. I don't purchase lights from DX or KD, but I have purchased a fair amount of Fenix, Lumapower, Zebralight and some other well known lights sold by quality dealers. To sum things up with regards to those lights, I've never had a single failure in any of them. Given that fact, it would be hard for me to agree that current light technolgies are headed off track.

LED-holic · Sep 12, 2008

Patriot36 said:
I don't personally think we're going in the wrong direction. The good quality lights available today are as good as they're ever been. I don't purchase lights from DX or KD, but I have purchased a fair amount of Fenix, Lumapower, Zebralight and some other well known lights sold by quality dealers. To sum things up with regards to those lights, I've never had a single failure in any of them. Given that fact, it would be hard for me to agree that current light technolgies are headed off track.

ditto

metlarules · Sep 12, 2008

By the way, I think one of the most reliable switches ever made were the old fashioned side slide switch with a button we used to have. When well made (not the crappy ones now...), they have large contact surfaces, are self cleaning due to slide action, have a momentary, and are very compact. They just aren't waterproof, but we had an old Sears 2D stainless flashlight which was used and abused for many decades and never failed (bulbs and batteries yes, light no), even in lots of rain.

I wouldn't mind a well made (in the Sears ribbed stainless pattern) such light in 1xAA with a good Cree front end. THAT would be nice, even if not completely waterproof.[/quote]
I have a brightstat 3d with one of those type switches.They are still availible at Lighthound for like $6.

Zendude · Sep 12, 2008

EngrPaul said:
:welcome:

I think in general the flashlight community is seeing a higher quality product from our favorite suppliers.

Reliabililty is based on a series of components that have a lifespan. The $1 cheapie mentioned has very few components in series, but the components have a very short lifespan (bare copper, heat staked plasic, etc).

You can increase the complexity as long as no individual component has a risk of short lifespan. Anytime a shortcut is taken, the whole flashlight can suffer. This is why product purchased from overseas retailers are have such a high failure rate. :sigh:

I've purchased hundreds of DX/KD flashlights and upgraded the emitters for resale. They start out as very nice flashlights, but a shortcut is often taken. Poor quality switch, bad threading, bad soldering, no heat sinking under the emitter, emitters soldered backwards, bad o-rings, bad contacts to the switch in the tailcap are just a few examples. I've had as much as 70% fallout for some items.

The other problem is new flashlight technology brings horsepower freaks out of the woodwork. They want maximum output. This results in some of the components being pushed to their limits. This shortens their lifespan, hence an unreliable flashlight.

The best flashlight to buy is one that's been out a little while, and takes advantage of components functioning in a moderate range of their capabilities. You can get a good amount of light with good runtime and good reliability at a reasonable price. :kiss:

But what fun is that? :naughty:

Thanks for the welcome!:wave:

I have to agree with what you and others have said. The light is only as good as its weakest component. As long as good components and workmanship take center stage I guess we should be alright. I just get concerned when we add more variables.
I have to admit I've gotten caught up in the whole "horsepower" thing as well, otherwise I might have gotten something like the Inova x5 which seems to have a good rep. for reliability(just not AA and not very bright). I was going to hold back on the D10 until I saw some long term results on the piston mechanism but then.....slotted piston...green trit... :drool:

...I'm only human!

Are we going in the wrong direction?

Zendude

Enlightened

asdalton

Flashlight Enthusiast

Marduke

Flashaholic

nerdgineer

Flashlight Enthusiast

frank777

Enlightened

EngrPaul

Flashlight Enthusiast

superflytnt

Enlightened

datiLED

Flashlight Enthusiast

EngrPaul

Flashlight Enthusiast

Patriot

Flashaholic

LED-holic

Flashlight Enthusiast

metlarules

Flashlight Enthusiast

Zendude

Enlightened

Similar threads

Latest posts