LED lights too complicated?

Yesterday I dropped my itp c7 and it failed to turn on. I knew I could not fix it. This made me think. With all these tiny electronic components that aren't really accessable such as inducters and even microprocessors are modern lights too complicated? Take the plastic 2D cell lights for an example it had a body, lense, reflector, bulb, bulb holder, switch, a spring a strip of metal and thats it compared to 100's of components in a fenix. Have we created lights that even an above average Joe can't fix?

R@ndom said:

Yesterday I dropped my itp c7 and it failed to turn on. I knew I could not fix it. This made me think. With all these tiny electronic components that aren't really accessable such as inducters and even microprocessors are modern lights too complicated? Take the plastic 2D cell lights for an example it had a body, lense, reflector, bulb, bulb holder, switch, a spring a strip of metal and thats it compared to 100's of components in a fenix. Have we created lights that even an above average Joe can't fix?

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There are very few thing average Joe can fix, except if he can get spare parts. For a flashlight you just need a new electronic assembly, if it is broken (I know that very few manufacturers sells that).
Anyway the electronic is not 100's of components, in many lights it is more like 5 to 10 components and the microprocessor is an advantage, because it cuts down on the other components needed.

Like HKJ said there are not too many technical gizmos the average person can fix. Sometimes users can fix software problems but actual physical damage to most electronics such as cell phones, digital cameras, and laptops usually means replacement. With reagards to lights, even a high tech light should be able to survive a drop or its not worth using IMO. Even my cell phone and camera have survived being dropped. I don't think LED lights are too complicated as long as they are built to take whatever use it is designed for. Old lights were simpler but those uncomplicated lights were not any more immune to damage.

Oops my bad guys like my sig just had to vent my frustration about not being do a thing... I guess I am being unreasonablely abusive (I think it has being dropped 10 times a day for a month). Heck I even managed to almost destroy an e01.

Maybe a lanyard would help if you're a little clumsy.

R@ndom said:

Oops my bad guys like my sig just had to vent my frustration about not being do a thing... I guess I am being unreasonablely abusive (I think it has being dropped 10 times a day for a month). Heck I even managed to almost destroy an e01.

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Venting is good. I think you have a valid question though. Often times more comlicated means a greater chance of failure. That is why some members prefer KISS flashlights and there are more than enough examples of people having problems with these complex flashlights. I had a EX10 that did not work properly after I dropped it once. I returned it and got it fixed but was not impressed that it happened in the first place. Lots of members had to return lights due to flickering issues and you do see posts that describe a light that just stopped working. There may be a threshold where features, and user interfaces become complex to the point where trying to add to each will not be worth it and even cause more problems than are trying to be solved. I don't think we are there yet but history is fraught with examples of products that tried to improve on things but ended up either not being practical to market and produce or catching on with the general public.

Zatoichi said:

Maybe a lanyard would help if you're a little clumsy.

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Now there's a simple answer compared to my comlicated one.:thumbsup:

Some of the flickering problems may be due to the lights being complex, but I get the impression a lot of them are just due to bad/dirty contacts. I remember having to bang and shake many a simple old light to get them working. If the light is well enough made I'd expect the electronics themselves to survive quite a lot.

I don't think they're too complicated, though obviously enough I think UI research continues to be badly needed. I have seen forward progress over the past few years, with some interesting innovation, but would like to see more. For myself, I have enough choices now that I've sworn off all flashlights with >2 modes that require click-through to reach the modes.

I don't think I've ever had a light totally fail. Dropped quite a few -- gravity will rear it's very ugly head and we keep it turned up to "11" to get our moneys worth around here. Worse I ever had to do was take something apart, clean and maybe lube it, and put it back together being sure everything was aligned properly. And I have "repaired" some for friends as well. UI's can have a steep learning curve I suppose, or be hard to remember, but the actual lights these days are mostly pretty simple.

That is, unless you forget to pay attention to the order in which the parts came out. I myself would no nothing of such problems.

This is valid question, and I can't answer it yes or no.

For me, it's not that complicated. Tech level of modern flashlight is quite adequate for me. But for the person like my father, I think anything more than simple on/off, maybe two modes, is too complicated. So, I would say it depends on who you are.
Another question is, even if I don't feel very complicated at all though, do I need all that modes like 10 strobos? Again, someone will say yeah, others will say hell no.
If the original question meant durability, I would say, that's not too differ from old lights. Old or new, doesn't matter. Cheap lights are still cheaply made, quality lights are still durable.

Yeah, I've been struggling with the user interface complexity as I've been replacing lights in my emergency kits. The old ones were Streamlight TwinTask - button on the side, clicks through all the modes one at a time. It's a pain to use the same mode on and off, as you have to cycle through, but everyone knew how to work them, as well as the old-school flashlights hanging around.

These same people - my wife and kids, who are all pretty technically savvy, but aren't flashlight nerds like me - I hand them a Fenix P3D, and it takes them a minute to figure out how to turn it on, then I have to remind them about the multiple modes and soft-clicks. Next comes turbo vs regular, and finally, if the tailcap's locked, oh, yeah, you gotta check this. Throw in CR123 batteries, and their eyes are glazed over.

So, I've been working on labels for them, just as a reminder on how they work, since these are emergency lights, and I might not be there when they need them. I review the operation with them now and again, and the labels will jog their memories, with luck.

I really, really like the Fenix L1D and L2D for emergency kits, since the AA is a good emergency battery that everyone understands, and the multi-mode gives super long runtime and/or high output, whichever is needed most.

The complexity is a problem, though. My parents would never have been able to handle these. As seaside said, a simpler light would be a bonus - I'd like a Fenix L2D with 3 modes - low, medium, high. The strobe and SOS are kind'a cool, but the odds of using them are slim.


Back to the reliability thing, that's also a problem and there's not much of any way around that. I'm dealing with it by standardizing on lights, like I've always done. The Fenix L and P series are good for this, as you can mix and match parts between them if lights fail for different reasons (tailcap vs head, or whatever).

The issue of durability is a valid point, which is why every good flashlight review involves a drop test and a bathtub test -- if the light isn't waterproof and can't withstand clattering down a flight of stairs, it probably isn't worth the money (unless it's really inexpensive). However, considering that cheap flashlights largely use the same sorts of parts as expensive flashlights, that goes to show that the real value isn't in the parts but in the thoughtfulness of the design.

The light sitting in my Oh poop Kit is a Fenix L0D, because it uses a simple twist interface, because everything is anodized including the threads, because the LED is potted to prevent impact damage, and because it runs on an easy-to-find AAA battery. I wouldn't go with anything more complicated, certainly nothing with a programmable interface, for an emergency light.

Simple lights can always be found. I like the complexity of the newer ones. Bring on the multi-modes and programming. It just makes it more fun. I can always find one that works if I really need a light.

Geoff

Flying Turtle said:

Simple lights can always be found. I like the complexity of the newer ones. Bring on the multi-modes and programming. It just makes it more fun. I can always find one that works if I really need a light.

Geoff

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I believe the key scenario is one in which you're lost in the woods or you have a flat tire in the middle of a rainstorm or you're locked in somebody's trunk after getting your *** kicked, i.e. finding a flashlight isn't really an option at the time.

I consider myself an average joe.. and I can fix any light so long as I can get it apart and can replace the faulty components.

So within these rough guidelines, glue, adhesive, swaging and brazing are a NO-GO in my book.

Standard LED-solder contacts, heat sinking, and a 17mm diameter bore for the DC-DC circuit are all a must.

Basically I won't buy any high $$$ light that can't be taken apart... or at least have some degree of replacement parts support.

I have had DX DC-DC boards die without reason, and I do think any EPROM programmed UI is more susceptible to failure, than a "well designed" mechanical switching method. My L1T for example has been bomb proof, through several drops, tumbles and water submersion.

I have a Husky direct drive that I really (surprisingly) enjoy using, yes its output is not regulated. But theres something comforting about the DD simplicity and efficiency that I can;t put my finger on. I have a 3-mode 1000mah DC board waiting to be modded, but I am enjoying the piece of mind using it direct drive.

There is an elegance to simplicity.

Generally, the simpler a system is the less chance of failure. There are, of course exceptions to this.

Since a flashlight can be critical in emergencies, minimizing the possibility of failure is optimal.

My preference would be a 2 or 3 mode light with a single switching method (forget the twist & click, etc.).

I recently got a Nitecore EX10 instead of the Liteflux LF3XT because it seemed a little too complicated and I think the button on the LF3XT is more likely to fail than the Piston Drive of the EX10.

I prefer manual roll up car windows to electric, the electric are nice until they go out.

LightWalker said:

I recently got a Nitecore EX10 instead of the Liteflux LF3XT because it seemed a little too complicated and I think the button on the LF3XT is more likely to fail than the Piston Drive of the EX10.

I prefer manual roll up car windows to electric, the electric are nice until they go out.

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Lightwalker,

How do you like the UI on your EX10?

I just ordered the D10 version and I'm hoping it turns out to be as KISS a design as some reports say.