I currently have in route a g2 with a v70 holster, p61 bulb and a lanyard and bezel kit that I threw in to make the order 80 bucks so I could get free shipping from www.strategosstore.com It is due in friday or later on next week. But I would like to get a brighter flashlight and use this one as a backup in the car or my other duty belt. I am thinking of getting a g2z from bulldog because of the combat grip and low weight and I already have a holster that fits it along with bulbs. Or get a z3 cause its cheap (77 dollars) or should I splurge and get the c3 HA for about 120 because of the finish and the pocket clip. I could just clip it into my belt or my duty pants pocket. I may even carry it off duty if it aint huge. Tell me what you guys think I may order it tommorrow.
Which surefire should I get I STILL cant decide
- Thread starter pal251
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emann
Newly Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
pal251 said:
I currently have in route a g2 with a v70 holster, p61 bulb and a lanyard and bezel kit. I would like to get a brighter flashlight and use this one as a backup in the car or my other duty belt. I am thinking of getting a g2z from bulldog because of the combat grip and low weight and I already have a holster that fits it along with bulbs.
[/ QUOTE ] Well a G2Z wouldn't fit your bill as it's no brighter then your G2 so you can scratch that one. Go for the C3 Centurion in Milspec Type III HA. Personally though if it was me I'd get a E2e-HA if you don't already own one.
pal251 said:
I currently have in route a g2 with a v70 holster, p61 bulb and a lanyard and bezel kit. I would like to get a brighter flashlight and use this one as a backup in the car or my other duty belt. I am thinking of getting a g2z from bulldog because of the combat grip and low weight and I already have a holster that fits it along with bulbs.
[/ QUOTE ] Well a G2Z wouldn't fit your bill as it's no brighter then your G2 so you can scratch that one. Go for the C3 Centurion in Milspec Type III HA. Personally though if it was me I'd get a E2e-HA if you don't already own one.
If you want a convenient SureFire handheld light that you will carry all the time, get the E2e. It is small enough to drop into a front trouser pocket with little hassle. Or you can use the clip. I like to slide the E2 vertically in the outboard side of a back pocket. Drawstroke is basically as if you had the light in a holster.
If you want another G2, then get a G2. What is the point of getting a G2Z? Do you plan on using the Rogers/cigar hold in some cases, but not in others? Stick with commonality of technique. IMO, you want strong, stress-resistant techniques anyway. Holding a flashlight like a cigar in my non-dominant hand while fighting for my life is not my idea of a strong, stress-resistant technique.
Does your agency teach DT with flashlights? If so, even more reason to forget about the Rogers/cigar hold. Hold the light in your fist and you have an excellent Kubotan.
Commonality of technique can also be extended to commonality of parts, operation, look-and-feel, etc. IMO, there is a lot to be said for getting a lot of perfect repetitions with your gear. If you have the exact same backup flashlight as your primary, you will maximize your training reps. And if one light goes down, you have spare parts common to both lights.
Of course, if you simply want to get a brighter light at lower cost, then go for the Z3 with P91. Between the Z3 and the C3, I'd get the Z3. Lower cost and the C3 size is such that the pocket clip IMO is of little use.
If I wanted a brighter than 6P SureFire, I'd probably go with an M3 or M4.
von
If you want another G2, then get a G2. What is the point of getting a G2Z? Do you plan on using the Rogers/cigar hold in some cases, but not in others? Stick with commonality of technique. IMO, you want strong, stress-resistant techniques anyway. Holding a flashlight like a cigar in my non-dominant hand while fighting for my life is not my idea of a strong, stress-resistant technique.
Does your agency teach DT with flashlights? If so, even more reason to forget about the Rogers/cigar hold. Hold the light in your fist and you have an excellent Kubotan.
Commonality of technique can also be extended to commonality of parts, operation, look-and-feel, etc. IMO, there is a lot to be said for getting a lot of perfect repetitions with your gear. If you have the exact same backup flashlight as your primary, you will maximize your training reps. And if one light goes down, you have spare parts common to both lights.
Of course, if you simply want to get a brighter light at lower cost, then go for the Z3 with P91. Between the Z3 and the C3, I'd get the Z3. Lower cost and the C3 size is such that the pocket clip IMO is of little use.
If I wanted a brighter than 6P SureFire, I'd probably go with an M3 or M4.
von
emann
Newly Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
von said: Of course, if you simply want to get a brighter light at lower cost, then go for the Z3 with P91. Between the Z3 and the C3, I'd get the Z3. Lower cost and the C3 size is such that the pocket clip IMO is of little use.
[/ QUOTE ] The only reason I didn't suggest that one is that you can't get it in Type III HA. Of course that's probably not that important to everyone.
von said: Of course, if you simply want to get a brighter light at lower cost, then go for the Z3 with P91. Between the Z3 and the C3, I'd get the Z3. Lower cost and the C3 size is such that the pocket clip IMO is of little use.
[/ QUOTE ] The only reason I didn't suggest that one is that you can't get it in Type III HA. Of course that's probably not that important to everyone.
BargainMonkey
Newly Enlightened
Have you considered modifying the G2 to 9 volts like in this thread? It wouldn't be too expensive and you could use the money saved to get a E2e for your small backup light.
Catman10
Enlightened
My C3 is my favorite light, go for it.
PieThatCorner
Enlightened
[ QUOTE ]
von said:
…
Holding a flashlight like a cigar in my non-dominant hand while fighting for my life is not my idea of a strong, stress-resistant technique.
…
[/ QUOTE ]
Not to be disagreeable, but that's not the design intention of the SureFire CombatGrip. It is meant to be a more fluid application of a coordinated weapon/flashlight technique, making it easier to break the plane of the isosceles Weaver technique without fatiguing the operator. The translation from left to right, right to left when applying the pie to corners is much more fluid in the translation, and still tactically sound. Granted, this does not work for everyone depending on the level of training and recurrent application of what has been learned in real world force on force encounters. The point I'm making is that the CombatGrip is not a form factor for an improved blunt force instrument strike. It's design is simply an extension of Bill Rogers' idea to make a light platform more stable in a technique designed as an alternative for the Harries, Ayoob, FBI technique, etc.
I do agree, however, with many of the points that von is making. I think your G2 is perfectly fine for a backup, plus there are plenty of holsters by Bianchi, SOE, Don Hume, Eagle, Aker etc. that can accommodate your duty belt. From my perspective, your backup should be a "drop-back" light from a more powerful light tool such as a Streamlight SL20X/UltraStinger, MagCharger, 10X, and the like. But that's another thread...
-Jim
von said:
…
Holding a flashlight like a cigar in my non-dominant hand while fighting for my life is not my idea of a strong, stress-resistant technique.
…
[/ QUOTE ]
Not to be disagreeable, but that's not the design intention of the SureFire CombatGrip. It is meant to be a more fluid application of a coordinated weapon/flashlight technique, making it easier to break the plane of the isosceles Weaver technique without fatiguing the operator. The translation from left to right, right to left when applying the pie to corners is much more fluid in the translation, and still tactically sound. Granted, this does not work for everyone depending on the level of training and recurrent application of what has been learned in real world force on force encounters. The point I'm making is that the CombatGrip is not a form factor for an improved blunt force instrument strike. It's design is simply an extension of Bill Rogers' idea to make a light platform more stable in a technique designed as an alternative for the Harries, Ayoob, FBI technique, etc.
I do agree, however, with many of the points that von is making. I think your G2 is perfectly fine for a backup, plus there are plenty of holsters by Bianchi, SOE, Don Hume, Eagle, Aker etc. that can accommodate your duty belt. From my perspective, your backup should be a "drop-back" light from a more powerful light tool such as a Streamlight SL20X/UltraStinger, MagCharger, 10X, and the like. But that's another thread...
-Jim
I already have a streamlight sl20x but I *only* work in the jail so carrying one of those monsters around is kind of tiring for no reason. A g2 will be bright enough, I will start using the 20x once I get out on the road in less than a year hopefully
PieThatCorner,
#1, Bill Rogers doesn't even use a CombatGrip SureFire for his Rogers/cigar hold. He uses a regular 6P with some rubber O-rings (or maybe it was bike tire tubing, I forget now) for grip.
#2, you make my point exactly. The cigar hold is good only for shooting. It optimizes your opportunity to obtain some sort of semi-decent 2-hand grip while operating a flashlight for target ID. The problem is that a flashlight has other uses besides just when shooting, such as in regular building search or as an impact weapon. And you might choose to use the light separate from the gun, as well as together with the gun. Thus, holding critical gear like a cigar is just asking for failure (dropping the light, losing the light, breaking the light) because it is a non-secure hold and limits your defensive options.
Basically, all it does is optimize your 2-hand hold to the exclusion of all other tasks and is thus poorly integrated in any sort of system of tactics and techniques. In contrast, holding the light in your fist allows you to execute a regular tac reload, use the light separate or together, and strike like a Kubotan, meaning something like Harries is better integrated into an overall fighting system since the motor movements are essentially duplicated.
As for the common claim that Harries is quickly fatiguing, I have never understood this. There is no reason to use high isometric tension to hold the backs of the hands together except during the actual act of shooting. For all other situations, it takes no more effort than simply making sure that your hands stay in contact. Thus, if searching with a regular 2-hand hold is not fatiguing (and I've not heard or read complaints that it is), then neither is Harries.
von
#1, Bill Rogers doesn't even use a CombatGrip SureFire for his Rogers/cigar hold. He uses a regular 6P with some rubber O-rings (or maybe it was bike tire tubing, I forget now) for grip.
#2, you make my point exactly. The cigar hold is good only for shooting. It optimizes your opportunity to obtain some sort of semi-decent 2-hand grip while operating a flashlight for target ID. The problem is that a flashlight has other uses besides just when shooting, such as in regular building search or as an impact weapon. And you might choose to use the light separate from the gun, as well as together with the gun. Thus, holding critical gear like a cigar is just asking for failure (dropping the light, losing the light, breaking the light) because it is a non-secure hold and limits your defensive options.
Basically, all it does is optimize your 2-hand hold to the exclusion of all other tasks and is thus poorly integrated in any sort of system of tactics and techniques. In contrast, holding the light in your fist allows you to execute a regular tac reload, use the light separate or together, and strike like a Kubotan, meaning something like Harries is better integrated into an overall fighting system since the motor movements are essentially duplicated.
As for the common claim that Harries is quickly fatiguing, I have never understood this. There is no reason to use high isometric tension to hold the backs of the hands together except during the actual act of shooting. For all other situations, it takes no more effort than simply making sure that your hands stay in contact. Thus, if searching with a regular 2-hand hold is not fatiguing (and I've not heard or read complaints that it is), then neither is Harries.
von
i thought bill rogers using a 6P with bicyle tubing is what inspired surefire to develop the combatgrip? in any case i find the combat grip to be very secure and comfortable and routinely adopt that grip when using my C2 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
PieThatCorner
Enlightened
You're correct, chamenos... the design and manufacture of the CombatGrip was a specific collaboration between Rogers and SureFire.
Don't get me wrong, von… I agree in many aspects of what you're saying. I believe there are many factors to take into consideration when using any one specific handgun/flashlight technique. Adaptability and flexibility should be considered the key foundations to any sound tactical application of those combined tools. And I don't believe Mike Harries' technique is a diminished or less of an effective technique, in fact, I teach and train with that method for many different areas of engagements depending on the environment for which it is best suited for. Defensive/offensive posture, weapon retention, close-quarters engagement in a stack/non-stack configuration, and other stress factors should always come into play. I suspect we can go on for pages of threads debating the usefulness and function of each technique, but suffice it to say I was simply addressing the correct application of the CombatGrip.
But with that said, I noticed that pal251 is working the jail until he gets to go 10-8, so the firearm/flashlight combo is a moot point at this time, non-inclusive of off-duty issues of course. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
-Jim
Don't get me wrong, von… I agree in many aspects of what you're saying. I believe there are many factors to take into consideration when using any one specific handgun/flashlight technique. Adaptability and flexibility should be considered the key foundations to any sound tactical application of those combined tools. And I don't believe Mike Harries' technique is a diminished or less of an effective technique, in fact, I teach and train with that method for many different areas of engagements depending on the environment for which it is best suited for. Defensive/offensive posture, weapon retention, close-quarters engagement in a stack/non-stack configuration, and other stress factors should always come into play. I suspect we can go on for pages of threads debating the usefulness and function of each technique, but suffice it to say I was simply addressing the correct application of the CombatGrip.
But with that said, I noticed that pal251 is working the jail until he gets to go 10-8, so the firearm/flashlight combo is a moot point at this time, non-inclusive of off-duty issues of course. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
-Jim
bwcaw
Enlightened
Get the C3ha. It is bright, small, and has a clip (which is really usefull) I had the D3 and loved it, but it doesn't come in ha type III, so I am probably going to get the C3 sometime to replace it. You will be impressed by the Surefire 9v light setup!
Ok now its down to a c2 or a c3, But I think I will get a c2 ha that is on sale for 70 bucks at tw for now. The g2 that I ordered from strategosstore.com still has not shipped as of today so I called them and told them to cancel the order and I would spend my money elsewhere.
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