Renewable energy ...important ...personal action

Our energy future is about renewable sources. Non-renewable sources are, well… non-renewable and therefore limited. We CAN eventually exhaust all of the petroleum on the planet. While we are doing that, it will get more and more scarce. It will also get more and more precious to our economy, lifestyle and security. We WILL fight to control the dwindling supply. We WILL trade blood for oil. 20 years ago we imported only 25% of our oil, now it is 50%.

Renewables we already understand and can produce efficiently are ethanol (E85), biodiesel (from Soy, Canola, algae, etc.) and wind energy. No new technology or "breakthroughs" are needed. What is needed is for us to pay attention, get interested and do something about it. The people who sell us imported oil won't help stop using it. We must stop using it ourselves.

Of the candidates for President, Howard Dean has made renewable energy an important part of his candidacy. Whoever you support, I encourage you to make support for renewable energy a priority. I also encourage you to choose a candidate early and actively support that person! This is important. Two wars in the Persian Gulf are TOO many!

hmm...I cant imagine life without electric energy...

Renewable sources of energy are important for the future but I think for most people it takes a back seat to other issues like the economy, security, abortion, affirmative action, gun control and jobs to mention a few. I wish Bush would do more to stimulate alternative energy research and production but it's not a key issue right now.

DieselDave said: Renewable ...energy ...important...but ...it takes a back seat to other issues like the economy, security...and jobs ...it's not a key issue right now.

Hmmm.

Well... it hasn't been a key issue ever since Saudi Arabia turned the oil tap back on after the Saudi Royal family used oil as a weapon against us with the "Arab Oil Embargo". Since those days, we've gone from 25% imported oil to 50% imported oil. And...since those days, we've fought two wars in the Persian Gulf; costing many lives and billions of dollars... with no end in sight regarding the current conflict.

As far as the economy...imported oil costs our economy 350 million [edited...previously an incorrect figure of $2 billion was quoted] a day...every day. That has to be hurting us.

As far as security...all that money that goes for imported oil forms a vast pool of wealth in the middle east. How do you think that Iran and Iraq were able to afford to develop their own nuclear programs? And... oil was used as a weapon before (at 25% imported)...why not again at 50% imported?

As far as jobs... we could take that $350 million[edited]/day that we currently spend on imported oil and creat a LOT of jobs right here in our own economy for renewable energy facilities in the U.S.

The Saudi's have been playing us for suckers for years. They help ramp up production to force the price of imported oil to stay just low enough to keep people from totally freaking out about the price...so we won't start thinking about alternatives.

My main point is this... why wait until the scramble for the last few barrels of oil force us into even more violence? Why not begin to act now, while we have some time?

You know, to develop a new weapon system for the military can take decades. We don't wait until we have foreign troops invading us to get prepared. This is much like that.

No argument on all your points but it still remains a secondary issue for most Americans. Someday, someday.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

The sooner the better. The impact of oil on the economy is undeniable; every time the Arabs raise the prices the Feds devalue the dollar intentionally to keep the effective price constant. But that action ripples through every other market and commodity...

Security is directly related, as we wouldn't need to be mucking in other countries' affairs as much and getting everyone pissed off at us.

abortion, gun control... I vote Libertarian. The only good government is a small government. Too many laws means too much overhead to implement them.

jobs - we're so hosed, even all the high-tech jobs are going away to China and India. Anything that can create new markets here is a good thing.

affirmative action - has never benefitted me, so I question its value in general. People aren't perfect and certainly aren't perfectly objective, all we can do is try. If you're a college and you reject qualified candidates based on race, you only hurt yourself. If you're an employer, same thing.
More enlightened employers will most likely perform better overall, and your bigoted company will wither away and die.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Once the supply of oil becomes low enough that even the US govt can't subsidize/steal enough, it will become a major issue for the American consumer. Until then, the majority of people just won't care.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
shrap said:
Once the supply of oil becomes low enough that even the US govt can't subsidize/steal enough, it will become a major issue for the American consumer. Until then, the majority of people just won't care.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that is the defining quality of "leadership"; seeing what will need to be done and charting a course toward the accomplishment of a necessary but perhaps not evident goal. I want a president that exhibits such leadership. I don't want to wait anymore until we are literally "dying for more oil".

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

This thread is so one sided let me throw in some arguments.

Ikendu said: 20 years ago we imported only 25% of our oil, now it is 50%.....As far as the economy...imported oil costs our economy $2 billion a day...every day. That has to be hurting us.

Isn't a major cause of the increased import the blocking of domestic drilling by many of same people that want alternative fuels? Aren't those good Americans costing the US billions and make us more dependant on Saudi Arabia? Isn't that fighting for both sides?

Ikendu said: Renewables we already understand and can produce efficiently are ethanol (E85), biodiesel (from Soy, Canola, algae, etc.) and wind energy. No new technology or "breakthroughs" are needed.

What's the cost compared to oil? Isn't there a problem running bio diesel when it gets very cold? Wind and electric vehicles are step back in the overall performance we have come to demand. Shorter range and less power goes against the American way.

shrap said:
Once the supply of oil becomes low enough that even the US govt. can't subsidize/steal enough, it will become a major issue for the American consumer. Until then, the majority of people just won't care.

When will we run out of oil? Aren't there vast untapped locations from the artic to the oceans? Do we have 20 years of oil left or 2,000 years? If one of the spin doctors could come out and claim we have 20-50 years of oil left that would get everyone's attention but they can't do it. When the left coast, the most environmentally active state is using more oil than any other state (I think) then it's not realistic to think the country will get behind alternative sources. On the other hand ethanol and bio diesel have a shot because they aren't so drastic.

highlandsun said: The only good government is a small government. Too many laws means too much overhead to implement them.

Ain't that the truth. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

I'm ALL for renewable energy, alternative energy sources.....However:

Howard Dean is an angry moron; I'm amazed that someone like him made it through medical school and his residency.... The one thing I like about Dean's candidacy: He shows leftists for what they are. If Dean wins the Dem. nomination, he insures a Republican victory.

But, my best guess is that hillary shoves him out, and that he runs as an independent or third party candidate, taking far left votes from hillary, again, insuring a Republican victory. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ... Assuming he doesn't pop a vein or artery first and stroke out or have a coronary on some stage somewhere. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif.. Even his wife thinks he is a nutcase.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

DieselDave said: Isn't a major cause of the increased import the blocking of domestic drilling by many of same people that want alternative fuels?

I haven't studied this...so, I can't give a definitive answer. I know that some drilling has been blocked. The Artic National Wildlife Reserve (ANWR) is such a case. Although, even the most optimistic projections for it's oil production only show it producing a small fraction of our needs and even they show it emptying out after a number of years. I do believe this part is inescapable...we use oil at a very high rate. It is limited and we are using it up. As much as we might wish "it isn't so"...we really are using it up. Drilling isn't prohibited in the U.S. It is only prohibited in certain areas (small compared to the total area available). We could ask ourselves why those laws were passed. Most of the prohibitions against off-shore drilling happened after accidents where beaches (that bring in tourist dollars) were ruined from oil spills. So...yes, there are laws but usually they are enacted in response to something.

Here is the other inescapable part. When Saddam invaded Kuwait in '90 (after Bush 41's ambassador said we had no interests in border disputes between Arab countries) we organized a powerful coalition to throw him out (even though we had been funding him just before that). If Iraq and Kuwait didn't have something we desparately needed (oil), I don't believe that border dispute would have meant anything to us.

But it did...so we went to war. That war was costly; dollars, blood and lives. I'm always surprised at people who value our national security highly...but don't see an urgent need to cut our dependence on foreign oil. I mean, how many lessons do we need to see that importing so much oil makes us less secure?

DieselDave said: Isn't there a problem running bio diesel when it gets very cold?

Yes. B100 (pure biodiesel) starts to "gel up" (stop flowing) at about 32 degrees. So...you need to blend it with other fuels for cold weather performance. This really isn't any different than blending #1 diesel (a lighter grade that flows better at colder temperatures) with #2 diesel (the summer grade) for better cold weather performance. A B20 blend (20% biodiesel blended with 80% winter blend dino-diesel) will work fine down to -25 below zero. B100 could be "refined" into winter blendable fuels without petroleum if we want to. I mean, heck, we "make" synthetic motor oil out of natural gas...I'm sure that biodiesel could be similarly refined into what we need for winter driving.

DieselDave said: Wind and electric vehicles are step back in the overall performance we have come to demand. Shorter range and less power goes against the American way.

Well...I know that Darell won't agree with the "less power" aspect for Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs). His GM EV-1 apparently REALLY accelerates quickly. We've been using Diesel/Electic Hybrids for locomotives for years 'cause electric drive is so powerful. As far as range goes, his EV-1 already goes farther (100+ miles) than I need for my 40 mile daily commute. I'd much rather use 40% of my vehicle's fuel range each day but be able to simply "plug it in" every night, restore the range to 100% and simply NEVER have to visit a filling station ever again (no filling the tank in the middle of a cold sleet storm or driving rain, etc.). That plus NO oil changes, tune ups, etc. is highly appealing...but, a different experience than Americans are used to thinking about. We are a two car family. So...I could easily have one car for my daily commutes (BEV) and the other car satisfy my need for virtually unlimited range (running on biodiesel or E85). Most of my miles are from the daily commute...so, most of my transportation energy consumption could easily be satisfied by wind generated electricity.

DieselDave said: When will we run out of oil?

IMHO...we have already run out of "safe oil". Although you may be right...we may have to have a 3rd Gulf War...or a 4th, 5th, etc. until most people really start thinking this way.

DieselDave said: When the left coast, the most environmentally active state is using more oil than any other state (I think) then it's not realistic to think the country will get behind alternative sources.

Yeah. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I agree with this. It does seem like California has more "world aware" folks than most other places. I agree, if this issue isn't on the radar there...it's unlikely that the rest of the U.S. will care much either. It's part of why I've begun writing letters to the editor to raise awareness of this issue in Iowa.

But, Dave, I also worry about this... You seem like one of those folks that highly prizes our national security. If you don't regard 50% of our oil being imported (literally the life blood of our economy) as a security threat...even after the Saudi's already brought our economy to its knees with "the oil weapon" once before... that tells me that this will be a hard issue to get Americans behind.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Silviron said: I'm ALL for renewable energy, alternative energy sources.....However: Howard Dean is an angry moron

OK. I certainly don't imagine that everyone will support the candidate that I might pick. I'm asking this... if you really think energy alternatives make sense... try to pick or get your candidate to make it a priority. IMHO... it deserves to have the awareness and priority raised in our country. Our economic and military security are highly threatened by importing so much oil. This is an issue that deserves some real attention.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

I am of the belief that we will run out of oil for the masses in 20-40 years. I do think we will have oil and gas for 100 or maybe more year in the future, it will become to expensive for the masses to continue using. I often wondered if this was really the case, but when I see huge oil companies like Shell, buy up Siemens solar and BP getting in to the solar market, and all the other oil companies diversifying, it tells you something, they see an end to the money making in that area and are looking to what will be next. So if they are doing that they must know it, since when has a huge company moved in a direction without it making financial since.

I also believe that until we have gasoline prices of $4+ dollars most people won't do anything about it. I also believe until the people, not the government, want to do something about it, it won't change. Look at SUV's for Pete's sake. I also agree that a smaller government is better, our country shouldn't spend 1/4 of it's money to run itself, that's just crazy, but we continue to do it. And why have gas prices gone up by 50 cents since 1970 and a gallon on milk cost a dollar more? I can only assume gasoline is subsidized at a higher and higher rate, I mean look at the prices of fuel in Europe, or any other country for that matter. Oh well.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

..and wind generated electricity will be economically viable when electricity costs over 50 cents a kilowatt hour..instead of the 10 or 11 cents it's been for a decade (or longer?)
I keep saying this, but that is so much power for so cheap! It really is like having a magic genie waiting to come out of your wall socket and do your bidding..to have humans do the amount of work a dime's worth of electric can do would cost a thousand times more..
..but that would increase employment and cut into profits, and we wouldn't want that now would we..

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

TedtheLed said: ..and wind generated electricity will be economically viable when electricity costs over 50 cents a kilowatt hour

Thankfully...wind energy seems to be catching on!

Iowa To Build Largest Wind Farm Yet

Iowa to have world's largest wind farm

MidAmerican Energy has announced plans to build a $323-million wind farm that could generate enough electricity to power 85,000 homes. The utility is conducting surveys in north-central and northwest Iowa to determine where to erect up to 200 turbines. The first towers are expected to come online next year. Company President Greg Abel said, "Adding renewable energy…makes sense to our customers, our company and the state." Gov. Tom Vilsack called it, "A great day for wind energy…a great day for the environment." The wind farm hinges on new legislation and regulatory approval. In a deal with the Attorney General's office, MidAmerican has agreed not to seek higher electric rates through 2010.

Fredericksen 3/25/03

And... there is this from Ireland:

Ireland takes wind power plunge

"The Marine Minister, Frank Fahey...said the wind farm would do much to help Ireland achieve its targets under the Kyoto Protocol on limiting global warming, cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 13 million tonnes per year."

Hmmmm. So... little Ireland (hardly a big, rich, powerful country like the U.S.), is going to meet their Kyoto obligation by building wind farms. Well, lucky for U.S. that OUR president pulled out of the Kyoto accords. I mean, we wouldn't want to have to compete with Ireland (heck, we obviously aren't as smart or have as many resources as the Irish)!

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
ikendu said:
...snip...Well...I know that Darell won't agree with the "less power" aspect for Battery Electric Vehicles (BEVs). His GM EV-1 apparently REALLY accelerates quickly. We've been using Diesel/Electic Hybrids for locomotives for years 'cause electric drive is so powerful. As far as range goes, his EV-1 already goes farther (100+ miles) than I need for my 40 mile daily commute. ...snip...

[/ QUOTE ]

We don't used DE drives in trains because "electric drive is so powerful", it's simply the best way to get the power to the trucks (wheels)

The whole thing about electric vehicles is storage/range. Trains get around this by not trying to store the electricity - that's why they are DE. The most efficent energy storage mechanism in common usage is CHEMICAL. Batteries don't even come close

I will grant you that you don't have a range problem on your 40 mile commute, just like I don't have one on my 10 mile commute. That said, when the weekend comes, and I need to go 100, and sometime 200+ miles in a day, the EV is going to leave me in a lurch. That means I must do 1 of 2 things

1)Own a 2nd car, with all the extra insurance, the cost (economic and environmental) of BUILDING and maintaining and storing that car

2)Rent a car for the weekend. Around here, that would mean leaving work early Friday, and returning the car Monday Morning on the way to work, getting someone to give me a lift to/from the car rental place. On top of that, I'd have to pay that $30+/day for each of those days - $120!

Solve the range/payload/size problem (you had better be able to put 2 adults, 2 children, the strollers, the playpen, etc etc in there) and you'll have folks flock to your doors. Ever notice how many of the celebrites that have EVs or hybrids also own 3-4 (or a stable) of other cars? It's great if you can afford it

That said, I must say that the largest part of my commute is done in electric vehicles! Yep, they hold about 80-100 passengers each, move in groups of 8-10 connected units. One makes stops about every 2 miles, the other, about every 8 blocks. They are called "Trains" (LIRR and NYC Subway). Here in the city, we are much less wedded to car tech, and in fact, have the lowest per capita energy usage in the US

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
Brock said:
I am of the belief that we will run out of oil for the masses in 20-40 years. ...snip...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a friend who is a petroleum geologist, and he says that there is PLENTY of oil out there - just depends on how much your willing to pay

Right now, we are sitting on well more than 20 years of PROVED reserves, and that is the number you always see quoted "Proved reserves". Do you know what a proved reserve is? It means they have gone and sunk wells, and have proven the oil is there. 30 years ago, that was the ONLY sure way to tell is there was oil there. Today, their computer models, and understanding of what is going on, allows them to know with a VERY high certainty where there is oil, without even drilling a well. It's rare that they get a "dry hole". The thing is, those are NOT proven reserves

He says what they do is explore for the oil, and figure out how much each field would cost to develop. They categorize the fields. "This is a $20/barrel field, that one is $35, that one is $100". That's the cost/barrel of oil before it pays for the oil company to use the field. Right now, they only bother proving fields below about $30/barrel because any field that costs more than that is too far in the future, and things might change

On top of that, for about 20 years or so, there has been a guy running around saying "Oil isn't from dinosaurs, it's from bacteria, and it's still being made". For years, everyone called this guy a kook. My friend says that there is a growing number of geologists and petroleum chemists who think that the evidence is looking more and more likely, but not enough to say the guy is right

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who is a petroleum geologist, and he says that there is PLENTY of oil out there - just depends on how much your willing to pay

[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with this statement. But can the "standard" household pay $4 a gallon and do all the things they do now? I would really doubt it.

As far as hybrids go, if the Prius had a 50 mile battery pack that you could charge at night and run on only electric to and from work, and say you get a call to run an extra 50 miles one day, no problem the good old ICE kicks in and your off. The best of both worlds, EV most of the time, and the range and (dare I say) convenience of a good old gas vehicle. If you choose to never plug it in, no problem, just fill it up like your used to, or if your like me, plug it in every night and try to go 3 months without running the gas engine.

Then all they have to do is do this same thing in minvans, SUV's and standard sedans and we are set. Then when gas gets to $4 a gallon, a lot more people would be plugging in. And before you all say we would run out of AC, unless everyone charged during the day, no one would even notice. We use about 70% less power at night, a part of that power could be used for our daily commute.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

KC2IXE said: We don't used DE drives in trains because "electric drive is so powerful", it's simply the best way to get the power to the trucks (wheels)

So...if the characteristics of electric power isn't it...how come we don't just couple the diesel engine directly to the wheels (like we do in over-the-road trucks)?

KC2IXE said: ...when the weekend comes, and I need to go 100, and sometime 200+ miles in a day...Own a 2nd car

For the single vehicle need...something like an E85 or biodiesel car will likely fit your needs better than a BEV. Fortunately for the motoring public...there are excellent choices in these vehicles today! My own biodiesel car (2003 VW Golf TDI) is EPA rated at 49 mpg, runs biodiesel with no modifications what-so-ever and can continue to run normal diesel if I ever need to or want to.

KC2IXE said: I..commute...in electric vehicles..."Trains"

Congratulations! Arranging your life to use public transportation is definitely an "earth friendly" way to live!

KC2IXE said:...a friend who is a petroleum geologist, and he says that there is PLENTY of oil out there

And there will be oil "out there". However, if "out there" requires the U.S. to import it...we still will be continuing to mold our foreign policy around ensuring the continued flow of that oil from "out there". Meaning military action and support for repressive, no-freedom regimes (like the Saudis). Plus...we spend $2 billion a day already for this oil from "out there". This is hardly good for our economy or our security.

I will start believing the scientist that says new oil is continuing to be made all the time when I see the old, "depleted" oil fields of the U.S. suddenly springing back with lots of new oil to be pumped.

Re: Renewable energy ...important ...personal acti

Brock said: ...unless everyone charged during the day, no one would even notice. We use about 70% less power at night, a part of that power could be used for our daily commute.

This is a great aspect of BEVs! The energy created at night is almost wasted (utilities started giving away barn lights years ago to farmers just to have a market for much of this unused, night time electricity).