Li-ion safety: flashlights vs. laptops

My question concerns the safety of batteries. Lion or the 18650's found in laptops, and used in some LED flashlights are designed with an air escape vent under the positive terminal, a safety feature. Yet when you install one or more of these into a flashlight, you have essentially sealed it, and removed it's only safety feature. Can this be a problem, is this a problem that flashlight designers have addressed? I also note that the battery packs in a laptop are also sealed with no way for air to escape, however, there is monitoring circuits involved that measure the voltage and temperature of each cell, and will kill it when or if it finds something out of the ordinary. Is this true in flashlights as well? Or are these flashlights using lithium ion batteries rather potentially dangerous?

On a side note: Is there a way to identify the cells inside a laptop. To know exactly what the cell is? Maybe a chart with identifying numbers?

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

Great questions, xeroid, and there are numerous threads where these issues have been discussed. I'm still new here myself, but I would do a search and I'm sure you'll turn up some threads for further reading. And I'm sure some of the other more expert folks than I will respond too.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

That is a problem with most flashlights. The pressure from a venting cell can be rather high and blow the flashlight apart.
Protected batteries contains a safety circuit, usual at the bottom of the battery: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/battery protection UK.html
The battery pack in a laptop is only thin plastic and will easily blow apart if a cell vents.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

Common sense should tell you,to save a penny or two you should not be trying to operate an item with a battery not intended to power a torch and buy the appropriate battery for a torch.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

My guess is that in a laptop battery case, the extensive electronic safety circuits that monitor each and every cell individually make laptop battery packs much safer than flashlights and much less likely to pose any explosion or fire. Almost impossible to be considered hazardous. But flashlights, unless of course they contain the same extensive electronic safety circuitry could be considered hazardous. Is anyone aware of any flashlights that have this extensive protection circuitry?

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

One of the keys in making consumer Li-ion electronics (smartphones, laptops, cameras, etc) safe, is complete integration of device, battery, and charger with monitoring and control circuitry. With flashlights we can mix, match, and use, the three inappropriately. Although I don't own any yet, I think Foursevens Maelstrom Regens are offering that type of idiot-proof integration - you cannot charge regular Li-ions in them (although certain models can use them).

As far as the airtight pipe bomb risk, if you stick with single cell formats, you eliminate the reverse charge risk and all but confine the vent-with-flame-risk to the charge cycle, when the battery is out of the tube.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

mcnair55 said:

Common sense should tell you,to save a penny or two you should not be trying to operate an item with a battery not intended to power a torch and buy the appropriate battery for a torch.

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Lithium ion batteries were not originally designed with flashlights in mind. They were adopted from other uses due to their capacity, light weight, and convenient voltage, among other things. If you mean to use protected cells or something like that, fine. There are plenty of cells designed for purposes other than flashlights that are perfectly suitable, while there are also plenty of cells marketed for flashlight use that are not up to the task and can be dangerous.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

Well, I went looking and couldn't find any idiot proof flashlight. None (that I could find) seem to have the same safety considerations you would find in any laptop running on Lithium Ion and expect to find in any product using Lithium Ion. Most in fact seem to have no safety consideration whatsoever. And Lithium Ion battery manufacturers webpages warn and are very specific telling you to never use these types of batteries without all the safety circuitry almost making it mandatory. The only exception is the use of Lithium Ion that contain their own tiny protection circuit found underneath the negative end of the battery for low draw, low use very limited applications. These "protected" batteries are limited to what it can protect against.

Frankly this is kind of shocking and it wouldn't surprise me to see government safety regulations being forced onto flashlight manufacturers using these types of cells, just as it is today on all other products using them. Some serious accidents have occurred through no fault of the consumer using off the shelf "unprotected" flashlights.

I'm all for safety first, so if anyone knows of a LED flashlight manufacturer that is incorporating safety first, please let me know.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

xeroid said:

Well, I went looking and couldn't find any idiot proof flashlight. None (that I could find) seem to have the same safety considerations you would find in any laptop running on Lithium Ion and expect to find in any product using Lithium Ion.

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A laptop (or phone) has a computer that can be programmed to check the battery. It would be more fair to compare to tools with LiIon batteries, then the difference will be considerable less.
With your requirements for protection you will have to look for lights with proprietary batteries (They exists), most light uses the more common protected LiIon battery.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

HKJ said:

...With your requirements for protection you will have to look for lights with proprietary batteries (They exists), most light uses the more common protected LiIon battery.

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+1.... and I mentioned a couple in post #6

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

onetrickpony said:

Lithium ion batteries were not originally designed with flashlights in mind. They were adopted from other uses due to their capacity, light weight, and convenient voltage, among other things. If you mean to use protected cells or something like that, fine. There are plenty of cells designed for purposes other than flashlights that are perfectly suitable, while there are also plenty of cells marketed for flashlight use that are not up to the task and can be dangerous.

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I do not care less whether they were designed for flash lights or not and I have no idea why you are telling me,in the interests of common sense I would not be using some old tatty battery when I can buy an 18650 which is fit for purpose from a reputable vendor with a proper warranty.

I would love to see an insurance loss adjuster working out a claim for a faulty non working expensive light when you tell him you fuelled it up on non approbate batteries.:devil:

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

I think we are getting off topic, or missing the point. The point being, why aren't LED flashlights being made idiot proof? MORE SAFE

It's not the laptop itself that controls the battery packs. The packs contain their own sophisticated circuits that keep an eye on the pack. A pack can be out of the laptop and still be protected. Same is true in tool battery packs. They need this safety more so because they are contained into closed and sealed space without venting. And with flashlights, batteries are also contained in a closed space not being able to release any gas pressure should the need arise and are not monitored to shut them down in case of failing cell giving rise to the possibility of an explosion. Simply put, these new modern LED flashlights are not safe. One cell can blow a flashlight apart releasing toxic fumes into the air. These monitoring circuits are not that expensive so why isn't safety the first consideration from the manufacturers of the new LED flashlights?

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

xeroid said:

I think we are getting off topic, or missing the point. The point being, why aren't LED flashlights being made idiot proof? MORE SAFE

It's not the laptop itself that controls the battery packs. The packs contain their own sophisticated circuits that keep an eye on the pack. A pack can be out of the laptop and still be protected. Same is true in tool battery packs. They need this safety more so because they are contained into closed and sealed space without venting. And with flashlights, batteries are also contained in a closed space not being able to release any gas pressure should the need arise and are not monitored to shut them down in case of failing cell giving rise to the possibility of an explosion. Simply put, these new modern LED flashlights are not safe. One cell can blow a flashlight apart releasing toxic fumes into the air. These monitoring circuits are not that expensive so why isn't safety the first consideration from the manufacturers of the new LED flashlights?

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There are a lot of safe and very good and bright LED lights - they are powered by NiMh batteries.

If you are an enthusiast or professional needing that extra power that LiIon gives you have some good lights to choose from also.
Singel cell lights that steps down and finally switch off when battery gets weak, for instance Zebralight but also many more.
Many of these also have voltage indicator of some kind.
You don't need protected cells in these lights but many, incl me, use protected cells anyway for extra safety (during discharge and charge).

For multi cell flashlights (I don't have any multi LiIon myself) I would prefer if the cells were in parallell and not in serie.
You don't get inverse charge when connected in parallell.
There are som lights like that, ZL, Fenix, Olight and more I'll guess.

If using a flashlight with 2 or more cells in serie I would only use good quality, protected cells and check voltage before and after use and charge so I know in what health and charge the cells are

Regarding powertools (using the safer IMR chemistry I think) and laptop battery packs they are made with 3 or 6 or maybe more cells and then used and abused in the same configuration for several years.
They are getting drained and charged over and over and maybe put on charge for long time.
As the years passes one or more cells gets bad and without the built in protection you would get inverse charge and problems.

If you want a flashlight that you can treat in the same way my tip is to go with NiMh or buy a light from one of the powertool brands that uses one of their batterypacks

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

xeroid said:

I think we are getting off topic, or missing the point. The point being, why aren't LED flashlights being made idiot proof? MORE SAFE

It's not the laptop itself that controls the battery packs. The packs contain their own sophisticated circuits that keep an eye on the pack. A pack can be out of the laptop and still be protected. Same is true in tool battery packs. They need this safety more so because they are contained into closed and sealed space without venting. And with flashlights, batteries are also contained in a closed space not being able to release any gas pressure should the need arise and are not monitored to shut them down in case of failing cell giving rise to the possibility of an explosion. Simply put, these new modern LED flashlights are not safe. One cell can blow a flashlight apart releasing toxic fumes into the air. These monitoring circuits are not that expensive so why isn't safety the first consideration from the manufacturers of the new LED flashlights?

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I'm assuming you're talking about Li-ion powered lights. Using a single, protected, good quality Li-Cobalt cell (the highest capacity, but most 'dangerous') is safer than driving a car (and, arguably safer than 2*CR123a cells).

Battery packs/propriety batteries are good for the general public, but as a general rule, this is a hobby forum, and most do not want to be tied into purchasing propriety battery packs for each light.

'Modern LED flashlights' also take NiMh and alkaline cells, if you don't want to get into Li-ion complexities..

Edit: Beaten to it by GunnarGG

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

xeroid said:

I think we are getting off topic, or missing the point. The point being, why aren't LED flashlights being made idiot proof? MORE SAFE

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They are safe.

I mean you could argue why are people allowed to sell & petrol (gas) cars, as that is a highly dangerous volatile liquid.

What about cigarette lighters?

Knives & forks are pretty dangerous too.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

xeroid said:

Simply put, these new modern LED flashlights are not safe. One cell can blow a flashlight apart releasing toxic fumes into the air.

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If you honestly believe that YOU are not responsible enough, then don't buy one. It really is that simple. But please please please never ever sit in the drivers seat of a moving vehicle either.

Trying to change to world by claiming LED torches are dangerous is quite bizarre and not really "NEW and trying to learn".

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

Chicken Drumstick said:

They are safe. I mean you could argue why are people allowed to sell & petrol (gas) cars, as that is a highly dangerous volatile liquid. What about cigarette lighters? Knives & forks are pretty dangerous too.

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Not a valid analogy. The general public is well aware of the risks of those everyday devices, but they have no clue about the risk of Li-ion cells because there are no analogous cells in general use. They have no idea about the great power such cells have. This is illustrated quite clearly in the many Amazon reviews of auto jump-start LiPo packs. There you'll find much doubt ("no way this puny battery can jump start my V8") and much surprise ("WOW! I can't believe it worked").

Similarly the general public has no clue how much damage Li-ion cells can cause should something go wrong, e.g. the poor vaper who lost half his tongue and chunks of his face due to a faulty e-cigarette.

One cannot casually purchase a cheap Li-ion charger in a dollar store and use it to charge your Li-ion cells overnight. That's a good way to risk burning down your house. But the general public does not know these things because Li-ion safety is not common knowledge. Indeed, such knowledge is quite esoteric - with no close analogy in any other device in general use.

Nor can one mindlessly insert high-current Li-ion cells in a powerbank, since if you get the orientation wrong a dead short can be much more catastrophic than with ubiquitous lower power cells (alkaline, NiMh, etc). Nor can one mindlessly toss spare cells in bags, purses etc due to the risk of "chain shorts", e.g. a necklace could cause a dead short that would not be interrupted by the CID because the current produced may not be high enough to trigger the CID, but still be high enough to cause damage (e.g. the chain serves as a power resistor that heats a neighboring cellphone battery till it explodes). Properly designed battery packs avoid chain shorts by using recessed contacts and/or extra mechanisms required to enable output.

The general public expects consumer-level devices to be foolproof. Loose Li-ion cells are far from foolproof.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

I've concluded from reading all comments that indeed, Lithium Ion driven flashlights are not idiot proof, and potentially dangerous as it appears they do not use the necessary protection circuits.

Staying away from Lithium Ion driven lights is certainly a safer option. Single cell lights that steps down and finally switch off when battery gets weak is not the kind of idiot proof safety monitoring you will find in laptop power packs. Your assumption that Lithium Ion Flashlights are safer than driving a car, gas, cigarette lighter, knives and forks are all poor arguments which do not make today's Lithium Ion driven flashlights any safer.

It's not an argument about if I am responsible enough. The potential is still there no matter how responsible one is, or how much knowledge one has, that an explosion or toxic gas leak could occur and less so if these flashlights would incorporate the same type of extensive protection circuitry you would find in a laptop power pack. But they don't, at least not yet. And there is no reason not to.

So I have learned something, it is much safer today to stay away from poorly designed Lithium Ion driven flashlights that have no venting and do not incorporate extensive safety circuitry.

ADDED INFO FROM OVEREADY.COM

CAUTIONS:

• Do not leave unattended while running on high
  
• Do not run primary CR123 on high (100%). The boost driver will drain them harder and harder until the cells overheat, and may explode.
• IMR18350 are recommended minimum. RCR123A / IMR16340 are too small.
• This light creates excessive heat
• This light may cause eye damage
  
• This light may burn the skin at close range
  
• This light may cause combustibles to ignite
  
• This light is not a toy, keep away from children

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

A more recent product hitting the market are power packs used to charge up cell phones. Take a look at this link: http://www.banggood.com/18650-2600m...lashlight-ca&gclid=CNbcs--mh8MCFQUSMwodyyIATA

and look at the safety protection circuitry used in a less than $10 product. My argument here would be that it can't cost that much to begin making smarter safer Lithium Ion Flashlights.

Re: NEW and trying to learn. Questions

18650 powerbanks have been on the market for many years. You can find some reviews here and on HKJ's site. Even though they have protection circuits (of varying quality) they still are not completely foolproof, e.g. to avoid shorts you need to pay attention to orientation when inserting cells, and you may need to use closely-matched cells, etc.