10440 LiIon in lights not rated for LiIon, pros and cons?

Note, I started this thread thinking 10440 should not be used in a 1.5 volt light such as the Lumintop Copper Tool. But thanks to several people sharing experience of no damage, Im not so sure 10440 is as problem prone as I initially believed.

Educational links
Making Lithium-ion Safe
Charging Lithium-ion
Lithium-ion Safety Concerns
Using Li-ion cells in LED flashlights safely

disclaimer, Im a newbie, no 10440 experience...
I have Safety concerns about using 10440 in a light rated for 1.5 volts. imho people who want to use 10440 should do so with lights that have drivers rated for the voltage, and protection circuits, and/or use protected batteries.. I recommend V54 Lights - Sky Lumen for custom LiIon driver upgrades.

I started this thread because I did not want people to ignore manufacturer warnings to Not use 10440 in 1.5 volt lights. As I learned more, I started to want to know how people who actually have been using 10440 for a long time, do so safely. By Post #13, I was considering using 10440, though Im still on the fence because of warnings not to leave chargers unattended overnight..

reasons not to use unprotected 10440 in unprotected lights not rated for 10440:

quoted from here:
"One detail that I would make clear is that, according to the manufacturer, the use of 10440 batteries will damage the flashlight irreversibly." Note, this factory claim contradicts several users reports of no damage to their Lumintop Copper Tool.

and here

vinhnguyen54 said:

Why putting an IMR10440 in a regular AAA light is bad:

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vinhnguyen54 said:

1. LED mounted on aluminum MBPCB/Heat sink. Aluminum sounds good but the LED actually sits on an insulator layer which doesn't relive heat from the LED fast enough when over driven with a IMR10440.

2. Circuit components are typically rated about 2V to boost max efficiency. When you put in 4.2V things goes into direct drive and all sort of things like transistors can overheat and go. Power=Current*Volatge, A linear relation, Upping voltage surpasses the max power handling of all parts and they will inevitable fail. Note, several users report no damage to their Lumintop Copper Tool.

3. If the components do not fail completely their specs will change over time and thus you can not go back to AAA anymore. Note, several users report no damage to their Lumintop Copper Tool.

4. LEDs life dramatically reduced due to unrelieved heat

5. LEDs can de-solder itself with heat

6. High heat at the LED = current inefficient flow = lots of heat = brightness loss. Current must flow smoothly to keep heat and thus resistance down.

Those are some reasons that came to mind.

DriverVN2 is user programmable making a AAA size light incredibly comprehensive but flexible. LED mounted on copper gets heat away from LED right away, no bottle necks. The more heat you feel is the less heat the LED have to suffer. Extra copper HS adds heat capacity. DriverVN2 has a great track record. Sold many hundreds with very little issues. And when there are issues its usually just my fault not the circuit.

DriverVN2 & DriverVNX2 are continuously being upgraded with improve parts. Although never officially announced.

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link

vinhnguyen54 said:

I will not be doing a ToolVN Ti run. I will only have copper and Aluminum. Thanks!

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link

emarkd said:

Its been pointed out to me that this light was never meant to support 10440 and they could quickly damage these lights. I know of at least one that now has a destroyed boost driver because of trying to use 10440, so it'll no longer function with primaries or eneloops.

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Note, several users report no damage to their Lumintop Copper Tool.

link

jon_slider said:

Tools are not rated for 10440 voltage but:

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jon_slider said:

http://www.fstoplights.com/lumintop-tool-copper-xp-g2-r5-110-lumens-limited-edition-aaa-flashlight/ says
"10440 supported
The Tool AAA Copper unofficially supports 10440 lithium cells - for super-output (up to 250 lumens)
Do take note that once 10440 is used for a long time - the Tool AAA may not work on normal AAAs again"

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Note, several users report no damage to their Lumintop Copper Tool.

fwiw, the Eagletac D25aaa can be had with N219 and is rated for 10440.

Re: 10440 LiIon is a can of worms, just say NO

Respectfully disagree. I have had no issues using a dozen variants of AAA lights on 10440. I own multiple of every popular model made and run them all on li-ion. Sometimes you have to try things for yourself, at your own accepted risk, and not just accept/repeat what others trying to sell things tell you is true.

Re: 10440 LiIon is a can of worms, just say NO

I would probably Edit your thread header to reflect that the Tool is the main focus? It is kinda misleading in many cases.

Re: 10440 LiIon is a can of worms, just say NO

maybe we should list the few lights which support 10440 and protected 10440 officially?

Re: 10440 LiIon is a can of worms, just say NO

write2dgray said:

Respectfully disagree…. at your own accepted risk...

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thats why I call it a can of worms. What you may consider an acceptable risk is personal, and I respect your right to make choices outside the manufacturers recommendations.

Can you at least confirm that the lights you have used 10440 in, that are only rated for 1.5 volts, have retained full function with non LiIon? From what I read LiIon destroys the boost driver, and subsequently the light wont work with primary batteries. Is that true in your experience, that using 10440 is a one way street, you can not go back to primaries after burning out the boost driver?

I am only speaking as a consumer with no experience doing what you have done. I welcome the education.

Str8stroke said:

I would probably Edit your thread header to reflect that the Tool is the main focus?

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You may be right that the Tool is the current example I am using, however, my comments also apply to the Maratac AAA, the Prometheus AAA, the Thrunite AAA, Olight i3s, and any other light that is not rated for 10440 by the manufacturer.

Some people choose to take informed risks, outside the design specs. I just find that inexperienced people seem to get the idea that putting a 10440 in an AAA light is "optional", without being aware of the risks.

For people that have experience and know how to use LiIon safely, even in lights that are not rated for the voltage, you have my respect. I dont think you are wrong to do what works for you, but I also dont recommend it for the average consumer who has little LiIon knowledge and safety awareness.

thanks for the feedback, Im definitely open to learning more, and this thread is available to explore a range of options and criteria under which lights with no LiIon rating, can be safely used in ways the manufacturer does not endorse, and which cause irreversible damage to the stock driver.

also, thank you both for your gentle engagement with my communication style . I welcome further education.

kreisl said:

maybe we should list the few lights which support 10440 and protected 10440 officially?

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great idea!
Peak Eiger
Eagletac D25aaa
ToolVN, and any other AAA light he offers that uses his custom LiIon driver.

Re: 10440 LiIon is a can of worms, just say NO

jon_slider said:

great idea!
Peak Eiger
Eagletac D25aaa
ToolVN, and any other AAA light he offers that uses his custom LiIon driver.

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explicit official 10440 support, off the top of my hat out of my personal collection:

Tank E09 (unprotected 10440)
Tank E10 (unprotected 10440 and protected 10440)
Tank ES12 (unprotected 10440)
Ultratac K18 SS (unprotected and protected 10440)
Ultratac K18 (unprotected 10440)

Cheers Jon, this thread was very necessary. Putting a 10440 cell into an AAA flashlight not designed to handle that voltage is kind of like putting 10w30 oil in your car when the manufacturer is saying 5w40. Yes, the car will still start, yes, it will still run, but the question is, for how long? Eventually, the oil that's too thick to circulate properly when cold, but too thin when warm will wear the bores, and one day, you'll turn the key and there won't be enough compression to start. Same with 10440 cells in a light designed for alkaline or NiMH only. It may work the first time, maybe the second, maybe the 100th, but you could be doing damage that means the 101st time, you've knackered it.

On the other hand, there are considerations with AAA lights that are rated for 10440 use as well. The example I have in mind is the BLF 348 penlight, which is a version of the Singfire 348. It works just fine with a 10440 cell, but because of being constructed of stainless steel, there are thermal issues. Stainless steel does not conduct heat as well as aluminum, so heat from the emitter is not conducted away fast enough to keep the emitter and driver from overheating. So the light must be used for only short bursts at a time, with time for the head to cool off between bursts. I think that manufacturers who certify AAA lights for 10440 use should also warn users of the dangers of over use when doing so.

Dangers yes but I'd hope companies would include a buck/boost driver that would handle between aaa &10440 that includes drop down thermal protection if advertised to run 10440s.... But that would cost.

thank you all for the input and comments
Im particularly focused on the use of LiIon in lights that are only rated for 1.5 volts

see the following posts, from[Review] LUMINTOP TOOL AAA Cooper (Nichia 219B, 1x AAA)

11/24/2015

KITROBASKIN said:

10440 works OK with my aluminum Tool (purchased a few months ago)...

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KITROBASKIN said:

I wish... high mode came on first...
Need... 10440 capability... Sky Lumen... factory installation.

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_UPz said:

Since the user manual doesn't mention anything about higher-than-1.5V battery, I've asked the manufacturer if I should test the light with 10440 too. They told me that 10400 battery will destroy this new driver.

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It is possible that the old PWM based driver somehow survived 10440 differently than the new NoPWM driver. I read reports that the use of 10440 in older models could result in loss of low modes and destruction of the boost driver, such that primary batteries would no longer work. OTOH, for someone who is mainly interested in a bright light that turns on at High, the loss of primary battery capability, and loss of low modes, would not matter. And SkyLumen does offer a CU ToolVN for people that want High mode first and LiIon capability, with protected cells.

I have Safety concerns about using 10440 in a light rated for 1.5 volts. imho people who want to use 10440 should do so with lights that have drivers rated for the voltage, and protection circuits, and/or use protected batteries.. I recommend V54 Lights - Sky Lumen for that.

I'm with write2dgray on this one, i use only 10440 in all of my aaa lights whether factory recommended or not. Now, i would not suggest that a newbie start throwing lithiums in all his or her lights, it requires understanding. You must first accept the obvious risk and must understand propper use and function of the lithium battery. I will say though, i have been lucky so far in that i have had no catastrophic failures and surprisingly no "one way street" scenarios either with my aaa's. I do have one eagletac d25a clicky aluminium that is a few years old and it started to drop modes and do a bunch of funky stuff, only after a couple years of using 14500's. So yes there is a risk, but honestly, for an experienced flashoholic it is generally not as risky when the lithiums are used responsibly.. I am currently edc'ing a lumintop tool ti with 10440, i have used both aluminum and ti 4sevens preon 1 for years on 10440 and many others...

Since that this thread was prompted by the Lumintop Tool Ti, and since vinh's arguments mostly boil down to the effects of overheating/heat buildup, I was wondering whether the brass pill in the Tool Ti would make a difference.

Going by this list of thermal conductivity values, brass transmits heat nearly 5x as well as titanium! But it's still only half as good as aluminum, which is in turn half as good as copper. So at a first glance the Ti would simply be worse, in terms of heat buildup, than the aluminum Tool. But it's made more complicated by the fact that the pill in the Ti is a separate piece between the head and the body, and exposed to the environment, whereas in the regular Tool it's screwed in place within the head. So I guess in the end I don't know

rdnesh69 said:

… i use only 10440 in all of my aaa lights … i would not suggest that a newbie start throwing lithiums in all his or her lights, it requires understanding. … yes there is a risk, but honestly, for an experienced flashoholic it is generally not as risky when the lithiums are used responsibly.. I am currently edc'ing a lumintop tool ti with 10440

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Thank You very much for expanding my horizons with your experience.
And for the details that you have not experienced lost modes nor failed boost drivers nor loss of primary battery compatibility, nor fires, death and destruction.

Are there any pointers, warnings or strategies you want to share or link me to, designed for a newbie, not an experienced flashoholic, if I wanted to try LiIon (in a TiTool), for the first time?

what are some of your pro and con reasons for choosing to use LiIon instead of Eneloop in a TiTool?

AA/AAA lights are getting so bright today on NiMH and primaries I am wondering if lithium ions provide that much of a pro anymore? I don't own enough AAA lights to make an informed opinion though.

Woods Walker said:

AA/AAA lights are getting so bright today on NiMH and primaries I am wondering if lithium ions provide that much of a pro anymore? I don't own enough AAA lights to make an informed opinion though.

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I was thinking the same actually - and I use the ReyLight 'Tool' made from copper - it seems great on a lithium primary. I do also have a VN Tool, but running the 10440 means that more copper heat sinking is needed (and used).

*Duplicate

Woods Walker said:

AA/AAA lights are getting so bright today on NiMH and primaries I am wondering if lithium ions provide that much of a pro anymore? I don't own enough AAA lights to make an informed opinion though.

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The Zebralight SC5w had me thinking this too, tremendous amount of work from a single AA NiMH cell.

somnambulism said:

Since that this thread was prompted by the Lumintop Tool Ti, and since vinh's arguments mostly boil down to the effects of overheating/heat buildup, I was wondering whether the brass pill in the Tool Ti would make a difference.

Going by this list of thermal conductivity values, brass transmits heat nearly 5x as well as titanium! But it's still only half as good as aluminum, which is in turn half as good as copper. So at a first glance the Ti would simply be worse, in terms of heat buildup, than the aluminum Tool. But it's made more complicated by the fact that the pill in the Ti is a separate piece between the head and the body, and exposed to the environment, whereas in the regular Tool it's screwed in place within the head. So I guess in the end I don't know

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As beautiful and robust as titanium is.... It really is the worst flashlight material by far. That being said, i have several!!! Lol. So the brass pill basically just takes the horrible heat transfer of a tiny ti light and makes it ever so slightly better than it would have been. Still nowhere near the capabilities of a copper or aluminum light..

Woods Walker said:

AA/AAA lights are getting so bright today on NiMH and primaries I am wondering if lithium ions provide that much of a pro anymore? ...

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For the most part, this is my POV too ^

I used to carry the ITP A3 before they became OLIGHT. Loved that light and now the aluminum version of the Illuminati has taken it's place. The Illuminati lights up my entire backyard (on a primary lithium 1.5v cell) and I've always thought the low voltage (1.2-1.5v) AAA lights are a lot of bang for the buck (i.e. carry size vs output gives amazing value).

I have some TnC 10440 lights and I have several 14500 lights, and love the size to output ratio there too. At the end of the day I go with the intended use of the driver. The thing is, even with the 10440 lights, most of them are "hot rodded" for the wow factor and they really can't be used on high for very long without self destructing. So while it is a true feature to have a super high output on 10440, it can't really be used on high for very long anyway. You could come to various conclusions from that. You might conclude that better to stay out of that scenario and stick with AAAs, or you might think, isn't it sweet to be able to get 500 lumens out of my tiny 10440 light for a few seconds because that's all the time I need anyway.

To each his own I guess, but I stick to AAAs in my AAA lights and 10440s if and only if the builder gives the go ahead.

jon_slider said:

Thank You very much for expanding my horizons with your experience.
And for the details that you have not experienced lost modes nor failed boost drivers nor loss of primary battery compatibility, nor fires, death and destruction.

Are there any pointers, warnings or strategies you want to share or link me to, designed for a newbie, not an experienced flashoholic, if I wanted to try LiIon (in a TiTool), for the first time?

what are some of your pro and con reasons for choosing to use LiIon instead of Eneloop in a TiTool?

Click to expand...

I would say first of all it doesn't take a genius to use lithiums properly, though some might have you believe that, it just takes a little more attention to detail when using the light and the batteries. As far as running tiny lights on almost triple the juice, the cons are obviously heat dissipation and usually poorer run times than when using standard AAA. Also the biggest issue, is that if a manufacturer does not outright suggest using lithium batteries then whatever happens good or bad is on you. So first you must decide if the risks are worth having to lose or replace your flashlight. I would say in my experience the biggest issue seems to be heat, not necessarily the excess voltage. That being the case, if you do plan on running something like the titanium tool on 10440 you need to pay very close attention to the heat that's being generated. I don't really let my lights get very hot before turning off or dropping down a mode. For this reason a like to have a light with several modes otherwise you kind of lose more than you gain with running lithium. This works great for me because i don't usually need a few hundred lumens for more than 30 seconds here and there. And if i do need more run time i can use my low modes. Also i try to keep my batteries nice and fresh, since a light that doesn't support lithium will likely not have built in voltage protection it could be hazardous to over discharge the battery. I just pop a charged battery in every week,or sooner depending on how much it's been used, just to be safe. That's pretty much it as far as safe usage goes. Your mileage may very,you may want more run time consistently in which case you really wouldnt benefit from a aaa light in the first place and really wouldnt have much use for short bursts of super light. I like to know the burst is there if i need it.