ZL SC600 Fd III Plus issues

So let me start off by saying that I'm a pretty big fan of ZL. I've had a SC600 II L2 for 2.5 years. During that period, It's lived in my pocket for all but maybe ... 10-20 days tops (because I forgot it for whatever reason). I haven't been "kind" to it, but it hasn't complained. It just keeps on going and going and going. I did a bunch of searching before I got that torch, and it was the most powerful single 18650 torch I could find at the time. Really, I can't say enough about how great it's been for me.



Now ... enter the title of this forum post. A few months back I had a friend of mine show me his recently acquired SC63, not one to be outdone, I went online to see if they had refreshed the SC600. Of course, they had, so I placed the order. Upon powering this thing up, I was taken aback by the excellent color rendering. I've put the thing head to head up against actual sunlight, and the difference is minimal. The beam quality is excellent also, I find that it's great for using to take cell phone photos, since there isn't a hot spot that appears in the middle of the photo. Also it's smaller than my older sc600, and lighter too.

Unfortunately, it hasn't been all sunshine and rainbows for me.



This is my *THIRD* SC600 FD III Plus. I said I wasn't kind to my previous torch, and that is true. However, for these three... I haven't had them long enough to abuse them. I just put them in my pocket like I have done with my SC600II for the past 2.5 years. Sadly, this seems to be too much for the SC600III. This is the third one I've had fail the same way. The front lens has shattered. Before anybody asks ... no, none of them have been dropped, or anything obvious like that. The last SC600III I had didn't just have a cracked lens BTW, the driver went out as well. This one doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling either. Some strange red goo looks like it has oozed out from the front of the torch inside the barrel. Now, I haven't had the torch long, and I didn't look for the goo before the front lens cracked, so it may well have been there before the lens cracked. If the red stuff was there when I got this torch, that would be pretty bad, I think.



I've only used unprotected 18650s (since that's all I have) Panasonic NCR18650B and LG HE21865.

At this point, I'm pretty frustrated. I really do want to love this torch, but it keeps letting me down. Has anybody else had these problems, or am in some strange bizarro world / doing something wrong?

Welcome to CPF, pslawinski. Here is an existing thread that is all about the Zebralight model you have. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414887-Zebralight-SC600Fd-III-Plus-XHP50

As far as I know, nobody has reported having cracked or broken lenses. That is really unfortunate to be sure. I have this light as well and really love it. It is getting a ton of use around my house. Sorry to see you are having consistent problems, even with your replacements. Did you get yours directly through Zebralight or a dealer?

The NCR18650B isn't rated for providing enough current to drive this light.
I'm just hypothesizing, but could it be that the battery vented without flame and caused pressure to build up inside the light?

I got the torch directly from ZL.

oKtosiTe said:

The NCR18650B isn't rated for providing enough current to drive this light.
I'm just hypothesizing, but could it be that the battery vented without flame and caused pressure to build up inside the light?

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Nope, the battery is just fine. Twice now I've told their support department about these batteries that I use, and they have had no complaints about them. FWIW I've had one of them fail with the LG HE21865 which is definitely rated for the current draw.

Here's a thread about several other ZL lights with shattered lenses. Pretty strange!

Inexplicable-breakage-of-frosted-lens

What oKtosiTe said. Check all batteries you used in this flashlight, maybe one got too hot and the sleeve melted or worse.
It's really important to use the proper batteries particularly in high drain lights like the SC600Fd III+ .. it draws up to 8 A (about 30 watts!). All kinds of nasty things might happen if your battery cannot handle this.
Get some Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA or LG INR18650MJ1, both are rated 10 A / 3500 mAh and fit perfectly.

Regarding the cracked lens: frontal impacts of anything sharp/edgy can cause something like this fairly quickly, if you're unlucky.

pslawinski said:

I got the torch directly from ZL.



Nope, the battery is just fine. Twice now I've told their support department about these batteries that I use, and they have had no complaints about them. FWIW I've had one of them fail with the LG HE21865 which is definitely rated for the current draw.

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No, all the batteries you are using are not fine. This is right from ZL's product page for the SC600Fd MKIII Plus...

This flashlight draws a very high current from the batteries. You MUST use unprotected 18650s capable of 8A or more, and from name brand manufactures. Multiple pogo-pin battery contacts, rather than springs, are used in order to keep up with the high current draws and to consistently maintain an extremely low resistance over a long period of time. Unfortunately, only flat top unprotected 18650 batteries up to 65.2mm are compactible with the pogo-pin contacts.

The Panasonic NCR18650B is only rated to 4.875amp continuous discharge. The Plus is drawing near double that on H1. This is dangerous and could have potentially caused one of your NCR18650B's to vent inside the light. You are lucky it didn't explode in your hand quite frankly. I suggest that if you are going to use a high powered lithium ion powered flashlights, that in the future, you fully read the manual and battery recommendations before you harm yourself or others. I am not sure how you missed this safety warning as it is written in bold red lettering at the very top of the product page.

Tachead said:

No, all the batteries you are using are not fine. This is right from ZL's product page for the SC600Fd MKIII Plus...

This flashlight draws a very high current from the batteries. You MUST use unprotected 18650s capable of 8A or more, and from name brand manufactures. Multiple pogo-pin battery contacts, rather than springs, are used in order to keep up with the high current draws and to consistently maintain an extremely low resistance over a long period of time. Unfortunately, only flat top unprotected 18650 batteries up to 65.2mm are compactible with the pogo-pin contacts.

The Panasonic NCR18650B is only rated to 4.875amp continuous discharge. The Plus is drawing near double that on H1. This is dangerous and could have potentially caused one of your NCR18650B's to vent inside the light. You are lucky it didn't explode in your hand quite frankly. I suggest that if you are going to use a high powered lithium ion powered flashlights, that in the future, you fully read the manual and battery recommendations before you harm yourself or others. I am not sure how you missed this safety warning as it is written in bold red lettering at the very top of the product page.

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So I looked at three datasheets for this battery. One of them agreed with your 4.875A, but it's for a different part number (NCR18650B-H00BA). The other two data sheets list the maximum continuous discharge rate as 2C 6.5A. Okay, I'll concede that this is less than the stated 8A on ZL's website disclaimer. So, I decided to measure the actual current that the light uses. At full charge on the battery the current peaks at 6.1A briefly (one second) and then drops to about 5.6A over the span of about 5 seconds. The current draw continues to drop from there as the temperature rises, and the power is cut to the LED. Of course, full charge is not going to give the highest current draw, that happens to be further down the discharge curve. As it turns out the peak current draw is around 3.5V. I was able to measure a current of 7.9A peak. Now it doesn't draw 7.9A very long (less than a second). After about 10 seconds of operation it's down to 6A. After 30 seconds it's drawing 3A. None of this should be very surprising, since the light is PID controlled in order to keep it from overheating. So yes, the torch can exceed the maximum continuous discharge rating, but the average current draw is well within spec once the light has reached thermal equilibrium. That said, I'll probably just stick to using the LGs in the future, since they'll probably last longer with the relatively high peak current draw.

Oh yeah ... and none of my batteries have vented, or been damaged in any other way.

As to the other thread about frosted lenses, that is quite interesting. It looks like maybe the frosted lenses just aren't as strong as the clear lenses. I guess you just have to baby them which means that I'll probably be waiting for ZL to come out with a clear lens torch that has an XP50.

pslawinski said:

So I looked at three datasheets for this battery. One of them agreed with your 4.875A, but it's for a different part number (NCR18650B-H00BA). The other two data sheets list the maximum continuous discharge rate as 2C 6.5A. Okay, I'll concede that this is less than the stated 8A on ZL's website disclaimer. So, I decided to measure the actual current that the light uses. At full charge on the battery the current peaks at 6.1A briefly (one second) and then drops to about 5.6A over the span of about 5 seconds. The current draw continues to drop from there as the temperature rises, and the power is cut to the LED. Of course, full charge is not going to give the highest current draw, that happens to be further down the discharge curve. As it turns out the peak current draw is around 3.5V. I was able to measure a current of 7.9A peak. Now it doesn't draw 7.9A very long (less than a second). After about 10 seconds of operation it's down to 6A. After 30 seconds it's drawing 3A. None of this should be very surprising, since the light is PID controlled in order to keep it from overheating. So yes, the torch can exceed the maximum continuous discharge rating, but the average current draw is well within spec once the light has reached thermal equilibrium. That said, I'll probably just stick to using the LGs in the future, since they'll probably last longer with the relatively high peak current draw.

Oh yeah ... and none of my batteries have vented, or been damaged in any other way.

As to the other thread about frosted lenses, that is quite interesting. It looks like maybe the frosted lenses just aren't as strong as the clear lenses. I guess you just have to baby them which means that I'll probably be waiting for ZL to come out with a clear lens torch that has an XP50.

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I am not sure where you found these other data sheets but, the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650B has a max continuous discharge rating of 4.875amps and a puse current of 6.8amps. That is right right off the official data sheet from the manufacturer.

The NCR18650B is not recommended in any modern high draw ZL(SC600 MKIII series & SC63 series) or any other high draw device for that matter. In fact, ZL themselves advise against it and even started selling and recommending the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA when these lights were released because their current "B" based cell(ZL634) was not adequate.

You are lucky that they didn't vent as you are pushing them well beyond what they were designed for and that can be very dangerous with Li-ions. I would not trust your current measurements either because a number of variables can effect the results including the quality and type of testing equipment, connection resistance, etc. I would just follow the manufactures recommendation. The most common batteries used in these lights are the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA and LG MJ1. I suggest you start using one of them going forward as they are cheap, readily available, and high quality.

Anyway, I am sorry you are having trouble with your light. The broken lens issue is not a very common thing for most users even on the frosted lens models. Maybe you should try a regular SC600 MKIII or the HI instead, as they have normal lenses which will always be a bit stronger due to the lack of frosting which weakens glass slightly. Alternatively you could use a cap to protect your lens when the light is in your pocket.

I believe this topic has come up before and been addressed: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...light-SC600w-mkIII-HI-(XHP-35-HI-18650)/page2

Specifically Post#32

scs said:

I believe this topic has come up before and been addressed: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...light-SC600w-mkIII-HI-(XHP-35-HI-18650)/page2

Specifically Post#32

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That thread is about the HI though and the Plus draws a fair amount more current. And, even in that thread the "B" was generally recommended against due to its max continuous draw rating being border line for even the HI. Plus, why run the "B" when you can get the "GA" for less then $0.50 more per cell. It is a much better cell in every way.

Tachead said:

I am not sure where you found these other data sheets but, the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650B has a max continuous discharge rating of 4.875amps and a pulse discharge rating of 7amps. That is right right off the official data sheet from the manufacturer.

The NCR18650B is not recommended in any modern high draw ZL(SC600 MKIII series & SC63 series) or any other high draw device for that matter. In fact, ZL themselves advise against it and even started selling and recommending the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA when these lights were released because their current "B" based cell(ZL634) was not adequate.

You are lucky that they didn't vent as you are pushing them well beyond what they were designed for and that can be very dangerous with Li-ions. I would not trust your current measurements either because a number of variables can effect the results including the quality and type of testing equipment, connection resistance, etc. I would just follow the manufactures recommendation. The most common batteries used in these lights are the Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA and LG MJ1. I suggest you start using one of them going forward as they are cheap, readily available, and high quality.

Anyway, I am sorry you are having trouble with your light. The broken lens issue is not a very common thing for most users even on the frosted lens models. Maybe you should try a regular SC600 MKIII or the HI instead, as they have normal lenses which will always be a bit stronger due to the lack of frosting which weakens glass slightly. Alternatively you could use a cap to protect your lens when the light is in your pocket.

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I found the datasheets via a google search.
https://www.math.ubc.ca/~wetton/papers/NCR18650B.pdf
http://www.datasheetspdf.com/datasheet/NCR18650B.html

Both of the above data sheets show a 2C (6.5A) discharge curve. Granted the second datasheet says "tentative" on it. I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this datasheet you refer to, as I use these NCR18650Bs in various other projects, and the datasheets above are the only ones I've been able to easily locate.

I appreciate your concerns about the current measurements. As an electrical engineer by trade, these are things I'm quite aware of. I also have a decent selection of quality test equipment available to me.

I think I'll stick with the HE2s that I already own, and have *mostly* used with the Plus. The HE2s have a 20A continuous discharge rating. https://www.powerstream.com/p/LG-ICR18650HE2-REV0.pdf

pslawinski said:

I found the datasheets via a google search.
https://www.math.ubc.ca/~wetton/papers/NCR18650B.pdf
http://www.datasheetspdf.com/datasheet/NCR18650B.html

Both of the above data sheets show a 2C (6.5A) discharge curve. Granted the second datasheet says "tentative" on it. I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this datasheet you refer to, as I use these NCR18650Bs in various other projects, and the datasheets above are the only ones I've been able to easily locate.

I appreciate your concerns about the current measurements. As an electrical engineer by trade, these are things I'm quite aware of. I also have a decent selection of quality test equipment available to me.

I think I'll stick with the HE2s that I already own, and have *mostly* used with the Plus. The HE2s have a 20A continuous discharge rating. https://www.powerstream.com/p/LG-ICR18650HE2-REV0.pdf

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http://www.batteryonestop.com/baotongusa/products/datasheets/li-ion/SANYO-NCR18650B-3400mAh.pdf

The HE2's are definitely a better choice. The "B" is just not a great choice for these flashlights. Especially when you can get GA's for less then fifty cents more a cell. And, ZL says not to use cells with less then a 8amp rating so why would you.

The main weakness with frosted glass is the process used actually weakens the glass some. It won't be nearly as impact resistant compared with a regular glass lens. I'm not sure what the grease inside the tube is. Maybe some of the oils and lubricant used at the factory made their way into the battery tube; however I've never seen this with a Zebralight before. I have the same light and have dropped it a few times on concrete with no issues. It didn't land lense down but on the side. Perhaps the orientation of the fall also effects these frosted lenses more. As recommended I would invest in some good cells rated for 10A or more continuous discharge. The 18650GA is a good start and relatively inexpensive. Have you tried contacting ZL to see if they'll fix the lens or replace the light?

I bought 2 of these lights. User and back up. The back up failed inexplicably. Wasn't used or abused. Sat on shelf. I went to try it once and it stopped working properly. In high mode would stay on for about 3 seconds then turn off. I would hit button dozens of times. Take battery out retry. Let it sit. Awhile later try it again and the cycle would repeat. I returned it for a replacement. The replacement was DOA. Used the red cells from zebralight (panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA 3500mAh). Swapped the batteries between the good light and bad for a control. havent had the chance to return it yet. Puzzling. No problem with glass though.

^
Wow, that really stinks. I wonder what was going on with yours, especially that your replacement was DOA. I am glad that mine is working quite well.

Well originally i bought 2. So the "user", my edc. Has worked flawlessly. No issues. Quite, love it. I also got the h603c hicri headlamp. And that is flat out outstanding. I think since i bought it a few months ago i have run it no less than 8 hours a day--everyday. No issues.

The bad ones--well, unlucky i guess.

wow this is pretty bad for ZL's public image among their dedicated fan base. ZL now builds their lights in both China for that side of the world and in Texas for our side of the world. The lens issue to me is just they use cheap frosted glass not up to the tasks of the temperatures the light can reach. I do know that the SC600 HI uses the best parts from around the world lots of US made parts which surprised me.

I am assuming the red goo is melted potting substance or melted epoxy of some kind. I have only had two ZL's ever and both have been some of the greatest lights I have ever bought. To see these kinds of issues is very troubling. So for now until ZL chimes in themselves and they should as I assume people shopping for small high quality high output lights come across ZL and the many threads about their products here on CPF, BLF and taschenlampen. This thread just is not good for them.

Of course there IS the legit albeit extremely unlikely chance that the OP just got one defective light after another. That being said I would first eliminate the cell issue by choosing a higher amp unprotected cell. I have recently gotten a lot of the new VTC6 cells and have had stellar performance out of their 15amp continuous capability and 30amp pulse capability. 3120mah is what I average with them so they are not such a huge step back in capacity from the GA, Samsungs 15amp 30Q is a long time favorite that also has great capacity and so on. They all fit the light as well. They are 65mm or shorter.

Second issue I would investigate is inquire with ZL about where they source their frosted lenses from and the specifics about the glass itself like how thick it is, how was the lens frosted, what is the safe temperature operating range for the glass?

It does indeed sound to me like the B cells just could not take the high demand of the light and likely either shorted somehow, got so hot that all that stuff happened but the cell did NOT actually vent, explode etc...just a very high quality cell just not up to the power requirements of the light.

I have emailed ZL before about the new HI and they got back to me surprisingly fast even listing all the parts in the light and where they are sourced from. They would NOT however send me a design schematic or "blueprint" for it they said that would be divulging far to much info for competition to rip off etc. Did not expect them to actually email me any design layouts etc. but did ask.

OP I would be all over ZL about this(in as cordial a way as possible of course)...keep us posted I was going to buy this light over the next couple weeks but seeing stuff like this has put that purchase on hold...good luck

Tachead said:

No, all the batteries you are using are not fine. This is right from ZL's product page for the SC600Fd MKIII Plus...

This flashlight draws a very high current from the batteries. You MUST use unprotected 18650s capable of 8A or more, and from name brand manufactures. Multiple pogo-pin battery contacts, rather than springs, are used in order to keep up with the high current draws and to consistently maintain an extremely low resistance over a long period of time. Unfortunately, only flat top unprotected 18650 batteries up to 65.2mm are compactible with the pogo-pin contacts.

The Panasonic NCR18650B is only rated to 4.875amp continuous discharge. The Plus is drawing near double that on H1. This is dangerous and could have potentially caused one of your NCR18650B's to vent inside the light. You are lucky it didn't explode in your hand quite frankly. I suggest that if you are going to use a high powered lithium ion powered flashlights, that in the future, you fully read the manual and battery recommendations before you harm yourself or others. I am not sure how you missed this safety warning as it is written in bold red lettering at the very top of the product page.

Click to expand...

The NCR18650B is actually FINE in the SC600Fd as long as you keep it out of H1. None of the other modes draw more current than this cell can provide. However, if you cannot trust yourself to ALWAYS keep the light out of H1, then you should NOT run the NCR18650B. Also, this certainly isn't the best cell to run in any case. The NCR18650GA is MUCH better and not much more expensive. Better yet, go for the Sony VTC6. This cell can EASILY provide the voltage and only has about 100mAH less REAL capacity than the NCR18650B. It is a particularly good choice if you like to run your light on the higher modes. The Samsung 30Q and LG HG2 are other good choices. But the VTC6 is a better performer than either of these in terms of both voltage and capacity.

StorminMatt said:

The NCR18650B is actually FINE in the SC600Fd as long as you keep it out of H1. None of the other modes draw more current than this cell can provide. However, if you cannot trust yourself to ALWAYS keep the light out of H1, then you should NOT run the NCR18650B. Also, this certainly isn't the best cell to run in any case. The NCR18650GA is MUCH better and not much more expensive. Better yet, go for the Sony VTC6. This cell can EASILY provide the voltage and only has about 100mAH less REAL capacity than the NCR18650B. It is a particularly good choice if you like to run your light on the higher modes. The Samsung 30Q and LG HG2 are other good choices. But the VTC6 is a better performer than either of these in terms of both voltage and capacity.

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Better yet, get the LG MJ1. It is LGs lesser known competitor to the GA and since it isn't as popular prices are lower. You can't go wrong with any of the cells from the big manufacturers