Are your Flashlights EMP-protected?

[StarHalo]

There's at least a dozen lengthy threads on this topic, be sure to search for plenty of reading. Some highlights:

- An ICBM attack may include an EMP-specific stage where a warhead is detonated ~120 miles over the target area; there would be no blast/heat/radioactive damage, but it would blackout multiple states underneath the detonation. This means you may still be subject to an EMP attack even if you live nowhere near where an actual nuclear blast occurs.

- A working-or-not microwave, if grounded, is an excellent Faraday cage.

- Roughly two-thirds of all cars will survive an EMP attack.

etc.

 

[Kilroytheknifesnob]

For your information and edification:

1. According to the research I and many others have done, only pre-1972 cars would work after an EMP.

2. You must be a government DISinformation Specialist because ALL modern electronics will NOT survive, repeat: will NOT survive any EMP.

3. Likewise: Metal enclosures alone do NOT EMP-protect.
...

1. I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where I referenced a scientific research study stating that almost all modern cars are quite EMP resistant. If you could please cite your source of information, we could have an informed discussion here. Just for extra proof that you're completely wrong: http://www.empcommission.org/ start at page 112.

We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages
ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive
electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The
testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially
increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent)
was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous
response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the
simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m).
Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and
engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles
that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running
automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately
30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a
stop and require the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile
were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five
automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g.,
blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the
37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response.
Based on these test results, we expect few automobile effects at EMP field levels below
25 kV/m. Approximately 10 percent or more of the automobiles exposed to higher field
levels may experience serious EMP effects, including engine stall, that require driver
intervention to correct. We further expect that at least two out of three automobiles on the
road will manifest some nuisance response at these higher field levels. The serious malfunctions
could trigger car crashes on U.S. highways; the nuisance malfunctions could
exacerbate this condition. The ultimate result of automobile EMP exposure could be triggered
crashes that damage many more vehicles than are damaged by the EMP, the consequent
loss of life, and multiple injuries.

2. I'm not sure you understand how an EMP actually damages electronics.
3. Yes, Metal enclosures kinda do protect against EMP. It's basic radio wave propagation theory, not voodoo. Again, cite your sources if you believe otherwise.

 

[TEEJ]

Im pretty sure there's plenty more modern cars (especially diesels) that will still run fine, especially if they were running at the time of the EMP and have not been turned off yet (just keep em topped up and dont turn em off :twothumbs )

Its more the opposite, if OFF< they suffer little to no ill effects...but if RUNNING at the time of exposure then they suffer some effects, sometimes, if the EMP burst is strong enough, etc.



A microwave that's plugged in will not work well as a Faraday Cage, but, with the cord snipped off, they work well.

 

[LedTed]

A galvanized steel trash can many help with EMP. But your cardboard liner many create ESD, sorry.

 

[dr. Chernobyl]

basically any conductive mesh with small enough holes or metal plate will work, and you must ground it with short thick wires to good grounding system

 

[idleprocess]

- An ICBM attack may include an EMP-specific stage where a warhead is detonated ~120 miles over the target area; there would be no blast/heat/radioactive damage, but it would blackout multiple states underneath the detonation. This means you may still be subject to an EMP attack even if you live nowhere near where an actual nuclear blast occurs.

- A working-or-not microwave, if grounded, is an excellent Faraday cage.

- Roughly two-thirds of all cars will survive an EMP attack.

etc.

There are very likely a number of non-nuclear EMP weapons in the arsenals of most countries with modern militaries. Since concepts like the explosively-pumped flux compression generator are now widely-publicized, it's a pretty safe bet that there are other, nastier weapons out there waiting for the chance to disrupt a power grid without the political consequences and expense of setting off a nuke. ie, Boeing demonstrated a ... drone ... of sorts that could fry electronics within a given area at some range using a specialized focused microwave transmitter.

 

[LetThereBeLight!]

1. I'm sorry, you must have missed the part where I referenced a scientific research study stating that almost all modern cars are quite EMP resistant. If you could please cite your source of information, we could have an informed discussion here. Just for extra proof that you're completely wrong: http://www.empcommission.org/ start at page 112.

2. I'm not sure you understand how an EMP actually damages electronics.
3. Yes, Metal enclosures kinda do protect against EMP. It's basic radio wave propagation theory, not voodoo. Again, cite your sources if you believe otherwise.

I looked over this report.

I actually do understand more than you think I do, but I digress.

First problem: it's dated 2004.

Since 2004, EMP weaponry (yes, our own country and others have EMP weapons: those designed to knock out electronics) has considerably become more sophisticated and advanced.

EMP weapons have just ONE principal purpose: to make a country (its inhabitants, its infrastructure, its devices) "powerless", that is, to make those devices incapable of being reinvigorated, "re-juiced", if you will, and thereby affect the quality of life of those citizens or that country or that region.

Can those of us who have suffered Prolonged power outages as a result of Hurricane Sandy and who had to rely on gas-powered generators imagine their lives with a Permanent power outage resulting from an EMP-based weapon or some other unfortunate or similarly catastrophic event?

Are gas pumps EMP-protected, for instance? I really don't know but I would presume they are not.

Second problem: our power grid infrastructure is as old as the hills. Many reputable sources state that a prolonged power outage of 3 months or more could cause the deaths, minimally, of 80% of our population.

Third issue: your language: when you write "Metal enclosures KINDA do protect against EMP..." [emphasis mine]-- by using the word "kinda" you thereby contradict the very specificity with which you emphatically state most electronics (cars, etc.) Will survive an EMP (weapon-based or otherwise).

No, I am not here to knock your confidence in keeping your flashlights Non-protected.

I am simply encouraging readers of this fine forum to decide for themselves one thing and one thing only.

Namely, that since they protect themselves with LIFE insurance, HEALTH insurance, and CAR insurance, that it is perhaps JUST as wise to spend an additional ten to fifteen bucks (much less in most cases, and it's just a one-time purchase) to "insure" the integrity of their flashlights with the cheapest electronic insurance known based on Faraday's hard work, which, in my [researched] case, is a small galvanized steel trash can that measures about 18 inches high.

It just seems more cost-effective, and rationally so, than pitting one expert against another, or one poster against another.

Lastly, with sincere respect to the esteemed credentials of the writers of the 2004 Report you cite, this is the way I think or reason: since the Warren Commission's Report continues to be a travesty of justice, and since the Kean Commission's report on 9/11 did not address at all the reason [or reasons] for what actually brought down the third (smaller) WTC building, please forgive me if I myself, personally, choose to believe that "one report does not fit all subsequent refined EMP technology or events".

Thank you for your response because the Report you cite seems impressive.

But since neither of us knows the sophistication with which EMP weapons have been equipped in the ten years since that report's publication, I am erring on the side of "not knowing", and hence, I choose to EMP-protect.

"Whenever you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth." (Sherlock Holmes-- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle]

 

[TEEJ]

The way I see it, I am more LIKELY to see an incan light damaged by dropping it, than to see an LED light ruined in an EMP event....given that EMP event involve induced currents, etc, that short devices (Flashlights for example) are essentially immune to. If the flashlight is OFF when the event occurs, its probably going to be fine...no matter what.

BTW - those cardboard liners for the metal cans are to (help) prevent CONTACT of metal items IN the can, from the fields of the can itself. Lets just say it is projected to increase the strength of the EMP event required to do damage.

FLASHLIGHTS are one of the least vulnerable things to worry about in this type of event though, so to stay on topic, you don't really need to do much of anything.

Ordinary power failures due to overloading and heat, etc, solar flares, cosmic gamma bursts, storms, etc, are far more likely events that DO occur from time to time, and prepping for those makes a lot of sense.


After a while though, its like "ZOMBIES?!?!?! Really? And prepping for fun instead of with a real priority-based plan.

 

[cland72]

I have four unused P30's - perfect for running my three cell SureFires with 2xAA well into the next stone age. :nana:

That is genius! Do you use Eneloops? What is the optimal voltage for a P30 (voltage under load)?

 

[Kestrel]

That is genius! Do you use Eneloops? What is the optimal voltage for a P30 (voltage under load)?

That's a good question - I haven't tried them with Eneloops, as they were designed for 1xCR123, so ~2.5 volts under load or so.

Being able to use single (partially used) CR123's by themselves is something I've always valued as that avoids the matching sets concern with 2xCR123 configurations.

There aren't many good incan lights out there that can run 2xAA and 1xCR123 - partially because they are much less efficient in terms of lumens/watt at those lower voltages.

 

[mcnair55]

Im pretty sure there's plenty more modern cars (especially diesels) that will still run fine, especially if they were running at the time of the EMP and have not been turned off yet (just keep em topped up and dont turn em off :twothumbs )

Not a chance there are far more electronics in cars today than people can even start to dream about.I recently had to stop the AA man taking a simple 10 amp mini fuse out of my fuse box(radio would not switch off) as the dealer told me it will cause no end of problems and take the cat to them for a re mack which took just a few seconds and all was good again.

 

[RetroTechie]

A microwave oven does not make good protection against an EMP, especially if the cord stays attacted. But it may be better than nothing. Likewise with a few layers of aluminium foil.

As for a 'need' to ground a Faraday cage: I wouldn't. a) it's more difficult than no ground, b) in the case of an EMP event, it may actually make things worse, and c) a Faraday cage will do its EMP shielding work fine, grounded or not. More reading for example here: EMP Myths and Misconceptions

A metal bin with non-conductive lining should offer decent EMP protection I think. Problem I (personally) have with it, is that if whatever you put inside is also used, that means opening/closing that metal bin regularly to retrieve/store items from it. Ready-to-grab on top of my desk within an arms length, is so much easier.

At 43 years of age, I've never heard of an actual (large scale) EMP attack carried out over populated areas in my lifetime. Let alone with my country anywhere near the affected area. And several large CME events have come and gone. Not saying the threat isn't real, and I'm all for cheap fixes to potential issues. But I don't like inconveniencing myself because of threats that are quite low on the list of possible catastrophes. Also I'm not much of a "spare / unused backup sets for everything" kind of guy. Use it or lose it...

 

[Kilroytheknifesnob]

First problem: it's dated 2004.

Since 2004, EMP weaponry (yes, our own country and others have EMP weapons: those designed to knock out electronics) has considerably become more sophisticated and advanced.

Where are your sources? You keep stating this stuff without listing a single source. Show me where the military has fielded an EMP weapon. What field strength are these weapons expected to produce?

Third issue: your language: when you write "Metal enclosures KINDA do protect against EMP..." [emphasis mine]-- by using the word "kinda" you thereby contradict the very specificity with which you emphatically state most electronics (cars, etc.) Will survive an EMP (weapon-based or otherwise).

Yes, kinda. You're grasping at straws here. It depends on the orientation of the enclosure in relation to the source of energy, shape and type of metal, all kinds of things. In general though, metal shields from EMP effects. The real danger is going to come from long power lines and large industrial machinery that may act as antennas, receiving far more energy than a tiny microelectronics chip in your flashlight would.

 

[subwoofer]

I am simply encouraging readers of this fine forum to decide for themselves one thing and one thing only.

Namely, that since they protect themselves with LIFE insurance, HEALTH insurance, and CAR insurance, that it is perhaps JUST as wise to spend an additional ten to fifteen bucks (much less in most cases, and it's just a one-time purchase) to "insure" the integrity of their flashlights with the cheapest electronic insurance known based on Faraday's hard work, which, in my [researched] case, is a small galvanized steel trash can that measures about 18 inches high.

The thing is that one cannot protect ones self from every possible eventuality. This is why the best preparation you can make is to learn to be versatile, and make use of whatever you do have (McGyver style). Of course a few things collected together can be very useful and give you a head start, but unless you are a miner or live underground, then flashlights are only of limited use and are not essential.

Why buy a metal can, then buy flashlights just to store in it for the very unlikely event that is even more unlikely to kill all of your flashlights? For me it is certainly not worth bothering with.

It is also worth considering other EMP proof sources of light. For example, as well as candles, I have a few paraffin hurricane lamps that get used for garden parties etc. The added advantage here is no reliance on any electronics, a sources of flammable liquid for other uses, and no concerns about how it is stored (beyond the immediate safety considerations).

If your basic Faraday cage makes you feel better, then great, go for it, but I suspect the well educated and informed users of this forum are unlikely to follow in droves. You might be flogging a dead horse with this mission.

 

[Fireclaw18]

If all modern day electronics fail due to some catastrophic EMP event my flashlights not working will be the least of my problems....

This.

If I'm hit with a nuclear weapon's EMP pulse, I think I'll have other things on my mind than my flashlights.

 

[mcnair55]

This.

If I'm hit with a nuclear weapon's EMP pulse, I think I'll have other things on my mind than my flashlights.

+1 A man with common sense at last, fancy a pint? :thumbsup:

 

[LightWalker]

In such an event the use of a flashlight at night at the wrong place at the wrong time could cause you to be the dinner of cannibals, so if your flashlight survives, use it wisely. A moonlight mode or a red emitter on low would be best for not giving away your location.

 

[RedLED]

Would Halliburton cases work! I must have 30 of them, and my suitcase has seen millions and millions miles of use since 1986' and I still use it today, on every trip.

Like a haliburton in a haliburton to shield this. You know, I could care less if this or any other kind of war happens...if it does it does, why worry?

 

[Kitchen Panda]

Hi Bill, with respect, I think you misunderstand me.
...

3.) As for your sarcastic "how does a trashcan..." comment, if you research the various types of Faraday cages, you will see that one of the solutions I researched and described above will indeed protect any electronics. The cardboard lining all around and top to bottom is, if I recall correctly, to help said electronics withstand a vibration and protect it from something else I can't quite recall at the moment (let us know if you look it up!)

That all being said, let us all pray today and hereafter that God protects us from the human beings who would resort to such nuclear [and other weapons] evil so as to destroy life itself, if not the means of sustaining what God created: life!

Getting far off the topic of flashlights, unfortunately - but my on-topic observation is that I would really like to see the science behind this - how may volts/meter gradient can a flashlight withstand (and at what wave shape) and how are we SURE that a common Home Depot galvanized trash can is providing *exactly* enough shielding to protect from an unspecified warhead at an unspecified altitude and distance. After all, you wouldn't want to be fighting off a horde of spiky-haired mutants only to discover your trash can full of flashlights has arced over and destroyed them all.

Myself, I believe snapping my fingers keeps tigers away...must work, there are no tigers on my street.

I suspect all those peace-sign-carrying protestors have done at least as much to protect your flashlights from the end of the world as any number of trash cans ever will.


Bill

 

[ampdude]

I try to keep a decent quantity of AA's and CR123A's around just like a keep a bit of drinking water around and canned food. And ammo. Just in case. Because there are situations you can't anticipate where you won't be able to charge cells or you may not have water coming out of the tap. Or you may need to defend your home and property or hunt to survive. It's good to be at least mildly prepared. I have a large stock in incan lights and bulbs, in addition to some LED lights.

The EMP blast can come from many things, not just a nuclear blast or EMP bomb. There have been EMP blasts in the not so distant past that took out electronics all over the globe. I believe there was a supernova that took out primitive electronics worldwide back in 1859.

No, I just looked and it was believed to be solar flares. So solar storms are another thing that can ruin your day. Don't forget about quasars and gamma rays from deep space.

But then you can't beat the good old "common sense" that only a man made nuclear blast in your town can cause EMP radiation and that nothing bad like that will ever happen anyways.