fred a stare see
Newly Enlightened
Did you really say, Google your fear. See if it is valid. ? Google?
BYD, threat to US automakers or the new VW BUG?
- Thread starter mrfixitman
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mrfixitman
Enlightened
Yep. Seems logical. Speculation without facts, can cause fear. Fear feedback loop. A good thing to avoid.
Bimmerboy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Getting very sick and tired of how some EV proponents are constantly using the word "fear" to describe how others arrive at their thoughts. My position on government forcing EV's is based on logic, and understanding of individual rights. Not some vague, emotional propaganda word like "fear".
Bimmerboy
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think it'd be great if a lot more members would sign up for CPFUnderground where these discussions are allowed to get a little heavier.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
Fear from speculation caused by information, from big oil or Toyota.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
So don't blame me.
Facts! Luckily they're staying out of West Virginia, for the most part.
@mrfixitman are you trying to get a third thread locked?
mrfixitman
Enlightened
What did I do Now? Automatic apologies 🙏
People can pick & choose what stats they want to...but I use cradle-to-grave, including fuel consumed. That to me is the total environmental cost of the car. I did detailed math when I was looking for a new car and seriously was considering an EV. But the environmental cost of an EV didn't make sense. That's why I drive the current ICE I do -- even using gasoline, it's still MUCH friendlier for the environment than EVs.
What an environmental disaster! First, all of the mining needed to produce that amount of Li-Ion batteries (not to mention child labour). It takes 2,000 liters of water to mine 1 kilo of lithium. So, about 230,000 liters just to mine the lithium needed for a SINGLE Tesla battery pack. This DOES NOT include the resources needed for the remaining components of the battery pack. In the USA, this mining is done in the Southwest, which already has serious water supply issues.
PBS recently had some good reports on this. Just a few such articles from PBS:
Lithium Liabilities: The untold threat to water in the rush to mine American lithium
An investigation from the Howard Center at Arizona State University uncovered the coming electric battery revolution in America will require billions upon billions of gallons of water to mine lithium. Many of the new U.S. mines will be located in the drought-prone American West.
cronkitenews.azpbs.org
Lessons from abroad: the environmental and social costs to lithium mining in Argentina.
One of North America's lithium mining powerhouse companies has lobbied for a record $1 billion Department of Energy low-interest loan — despite having never owned or operated any kind of mine in the U.S.
cronkitenews.azpbs.org
Second, conversion losses. I'm still using Lead-Acid batteries my solar setup which has about 25% losses when charging, but the Telsa folks are reporting 20-30% charging efficiency. A 30% loss when charging a 3000MWh battery works out to 900,000,000 watts wasted/hr. For reference a space heater uses 1,500 watts, so you're effectively running 600,000 space heaters, releasing their heat straight into the environment for an hour, to charge that monstrosity.
I'm not anti-EV. I'm actually kicking around the idea of picking up one of Hertz's 2023 Tesla Model 3s for $22k. At that price all of the depreciation has already occurred, and with an 8 year battery warranty, not too much risk for 'beater' around-the-town car. I'm under no grand illusions though. Is it environmentally-friendly? NO. Moving the emissions from the tailpipe to smokestack, or worse, disastrous green energy pipe dream, doesn't change the picture. The road to hell is paved with good intentions at best, with corruption at worst.
This just came across my desk. Panasonic building a $4BN battery factory in Kansas to make batteries for EVs...which will be coal-powered.
oilprice.com
Panasonic's $4 Billion Coal-Powered Battery Plant Sparks ESG Concerns | OilPrice.com
new EV battery plant in Kansas, with energy needs equivalent to a small city, pushes a utility company to retain a coal-fired power plant, raising ESG concerns.
oilprice.com
Bimmerboy
Flashlight Enthusiast
But I do blame you... for your own words and actions. Not "big oil" or Toyota.
I notice a certain lack of accountability and responsibility for some of what you say. I remember in a different thread where you basically confessed that you can't help yourself from responding. That's a conscious, willing lack of control so long as you can shift blame for it to someone, or something external. A very common tactic of those who state there's no problem in forcing restrictions instead of advocating for a free market.
Let's take this downstairs where we can discuss things further.
They seem to be attracted to the small town South Park in Colorado
Says the person parroting Al Gore.
letschat7
Flashlight Enthusiast
Here is a thought. What does it matter what USA, Canada, and the 27 EU countries do when the rest of the world like Russia, China, India, Brasil, and some other places will more than likely still be running old gas/petrol powered cars?
I thought about this the other day when I seen a 61 Volvo still on the road and thought that in the neighbouring country of Cuba they still run cars from the 1950s on a daily basis.
Wouldn't it be better to endlessly maintain the cars we already have and maybe cut back on usage? LIke car pool to work and avoid unnecessary trips. Bike and walk for trips that are used 10 miles.
I thought about this the other day when I seen a 61 Volvo still on the road and thought that in the neighbouring country of Cuba they still run cars from the 1950s on a daily basis.
Wouldn't it be better to endlessly maintain the cars we already have and maybe cut back on usage? LIke car pool to work and avoid unnecessary trips. Bike and walk for trips that are used 10 miles.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
I am glad you used PBS as a source. I believe Aragone National Lab more. Also the efficiency of pump, transport, refinement, transportation again, storage, evaporation, pumping into containers and finally to the wheels, well-to-wheels efficiency is less than 10% in ICEV. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/smart-mobility-well-to-wheels-efficiency-internal-combustion-kmeťPeople can pick & choose what stats they want to...but I use cradle-to-grave, including fuel consumed. That to me is the total environmental cost of the car. I did detailed math when I was looking for a new car and seriously was considering an EV. But the environmental cost of an EV didn't make sense. That's why I drive the current ICE I do -- even using gasoline, it's still MUCH friendlier for the environment than EVs.
What an environmental disaster! First, all of the mining needed to produce that amount of Li-Ion batteries (not to mention child labour). It takes 2,000 liters of water to mine 1 kilo of lithium. So, about 230,000 liters just to mine the lithium needed for a SINGLE Tesla battery pack. This DOES NOT include the resources needed for the remaining components of the battery pack. In the USA, this mining is done in the Southwest, which already has serious water supply issues.
PBS recently had some good reports on this. Just a few such articles from PBS:
Lithium Liabilities: The untold threat to water in the rush to mine American lithium
An investigation from the Howard Center at Arizona State University uncovered the coming electric battery revolution in America will require billions upon billions of gallons of water to mine lithium. Many of the new U.S. mines will be located in the drought-prone American West.cronkitenews.azpbs.orgLessons from abroad: the environmental and social costs to lithium mining in Argentina.
One of North America's lithium mining powerhouse companies has lobbied for a record $1 billion Department of Energy low-interest loan — despite having never owned or operated any kind of mine in the U.S.cronkitenews.azpbs.org
Second, conversion losses. I'm still using Lead-Acid batteries my solar setup which has about 25% losses when charging, but the Telsa folks are reporting 20-30% charging efficiency. A 30% loss when charging a 3000MWh battery works out to 900,000,000 watts wasted/hr. For reference a space heater uses 1,500 watts, so you're effectively running 600,000 space heaters, releasing their heat straight into the environment for an hour, to charge that monstrosity.
I'm not anti-EV. I'm actually kicking around the idea of picking up one of Hertz's 2023 Tesla Model 3s for $22k. At that price all of the depreciation has already occurred, and with an 8 year battery warranty, not too much risk for 'beater' around-the-town car. I'm under no grand illusions though. Is it environmentally-friendly? NO. Moving the emissions from the tailpipe to smokestack, or worse, disastrous green energy pipe dream, doesn't change the picture. The road to hell is paved with good intentions at best, with corruption at worst.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1303-august-14-2023-cradle-grave-electric-vehicles-have-fewer#:~:text=Cradle-to-grave greenhouse gas,had 48% fewer GHG emissions. There has got to be a reason the Model Y is the best selling car in the world. Oh yes, 120 mpge. I must say not crawling under cars to service them is a pleasure.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
This is the reason there was a movement started in the last century of converting already existing vehicles to electric using forklift motors, controllers and lead acid batteries. Still done today using modern parts. Restomods. I did a few myself. http://www.evalbum.com/418
mrfixitman
Enlightened
He's not wrong and spent the last part of his life spreading the word of the danger.
mrfixitman
Enlightened
What you say is a free market means you can f#@+ in my face with no repercussions. There will be a repercussions.
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