HDS Systems EDC # 15

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calipsoii

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But you have to admit, some people are acting like minor artifacts in the beam is a serious usability issue.

You're coming off as a bit of an internet white knight here, the.Mtn.Man. Maybe it wouldn't bother you, but don't criticize others because it does.

Make no mistake, $200 for a flashlight is a lot. It's a flashlight. Most people go down to Home Depot and grab a $12 floating plastic Eveready with a lantern battery and never look back. By your argument, both emit light, just like a Fiat 500 gets you to work the same as a Porsche 911.

If I order a Xeno E03 for $35 and it comes with an off-center emitter, it wouldn't bother me. If a $200 HDS showed up with one though, I think it'd be going back.

Henry has an awesome warranty so I've no doubt that those people who are unhappy with their light can send it back to be corrected. Hopefully these are just some little growing pains that come along with introducing a new light.
 

Obijuan Kenobe

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I have no HDS lights, but I understand the concern.

Where else should one evaluate the fit and finish of a flashlight other than the beam/centering of the emitter? Smooth threads are great. Coatings can be nice, too. A great and unique UI is handy. And small flaws in machining are not at all related to the function.

The beam pattern IS the function of the flashlight, right?

obi
 

DM51

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Frankly, I'd rather have an HDS with its "flawed" beam at my side than a cheap Zebralight with its "perfect" beam. The HDS is so substantially superior in so many ways that obsessing over something as inconsequential as a slight ring around the very edge of the beam seems exceptionally silly.

That is nonsense, and furthermore it is actually quite rude and unpleasant.

balloonshark and others are absolutely entitled to express their opinions, and they have expressed them with great care. You think their concerns are frivolous; they think otherwise, and their opinions are perfectly valid.

Furthermore, I think they are right. For $200, that beam looks pretty ringy to me. The uncentered LED seems equally unsatisfactory.

Personally, I wouldn't put up with it. You want to? Fine - that's your choice. But do NOT imply that someone else's choice is "exceptionally silly" compared with yours, unless you want to be given time off to make a study of Rule 4.
 

Chris201W

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I didn't say it actually was "exceptionally silly", only that it seemed so. This, too, is an opinion.

I don't think a technicality like that excuses the comment. Beyond pointing that out, I'm staying out of this discussion.
 

the.Mtn.Man

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I don't think a technicality like that excuses the comment. Beyond pointing that out, I'm staying out of this discussion.

It's not a technicality. Saying that something seems a certain way is distinctly different from saying that it actually is a certain way.

But enough of that. Any word on the high CRI Rotaries? Last we heard from Henry (granted through a third-party) was that they were supposed to be ready towards the end of July.
 
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pjandyho

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Any word on the high CRI Rotaries? Last we heard from Henry (granted through a third-party) was that they were supposed to be ready towards the end of July.
I believe it is being pushed again. Remember someone stated so a couple of pages back.
 

balloonshark

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't see how anyone can defend the beamshots in this post. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stems-EDC-14&p=3683686&viewfull=1#post3683686

Like I said, I know that the beam can be fixed and hopefully with enough people asking for it to be fixed it eventually will be. Heck, if you look at my beamshot the off centered LED makes 50% of the beam edge look fairly smooth. Who knows, the large diameter hole in the bottom of the reflector could be to compensate for the off centered LEDs. That is just my theory though and is purely the speculation of a noob wannabe flashaholic.

Also, something to think about. If you were going to buy a HDS high cri light would you want the more expensive Rotary beam or the clicky beam? AFAIK they both have the same amount of lumens but the Rotary costs more but it does come with the Rotary and a ring in the beam.

My gripe isn't personal. It's only about the off centered LED and ringy beam.
 

Houdiny

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I believe it is being pushed again. Remember someone stated so a couple of pages back.

A few days ago Henry told me the high CRI's were to be released "in about a month". So I guess that means at the end of August/early September. Hopefully the high CRI Rotaries are gonna have a nicer beam...?!
 

the.Mtn.Man

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't see how anyone can defend the beamshots in this post. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stems-EDC-14&p=3683686&viewfull=1#post3683686

If flashlights were used exclusively for lighting up white walls then you're right, it's hard to defend, but if you look at the beamshots at the bottom of the post, in particular the ones lighting up the ground some distance in front of the camera -- in other words, how flashlights are actually used -- then I think the output is perfectly defensible.
 

pjandyho

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A few days ago Henry told me the high CRI's were to be released "in about a month". So I guess that means at the end of August/early September. Hopefully the high CRI Rotaries are gonna have a nicer beam...?!
Real sad... It's ok, I will wait.
 

Chris201W

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I don't think anyone is suggesting the output from the Rotary isn't useful. I find mine quite useful, and the rings don't prevent me from using it for anything I need it for. The argument is that a higher quality beam is expected from a light in this price range. Even if the rings aren't as blatantly obvious in real use as they are against a white wall, I still notice them from time to time, and it reminds me that the beam isn't as smooth as it should be.

I think the dead pixel analogy is a good one. My monitor has a dead pixel. 90% of the time, I don't see it and it doesn't get in the way of anything I want to do with the screen. Even when I do notice it, it doesn't inhibit the function of the screen, but it reminds me that it's there. Now, my monitor was relatively inexpensive, so the single dead pixel doesn't burn me up too much. If I had paid much more for a higher quality screen, a dead pixel really would bother me, like the rings on my Rotary do. It's about paying a premium for a product that is useful, reliable, and free of little cosmetic issues that taint the less expensive alternatives. That's what I expected from an HDS light, given their reputation. I got a light that's reliable and useful, but is plagued by what is arguably the most relevant cosmetic issue a flashlight can have.

The importance of cosmetic issues in flashlights seems to be a somewhat polarizing topic in the community. Those who find beam flaws relevant for a light at this price point have expressed their disappointment at different points in this thread. The general response from those who don't care about beam flaws is that those who do care, shouldn't. I understand and respect the mentality that cosmetics don't matter. However, I also understand and respect the people who expected to avoid cosmetic issues when they paid a premium for an HDS light, especially given the history HDS has for good beam quality.

With all that said, I will still use my Rotary. Beam quality issues aside, I find the versatility of the light unparalleled. The ringy beam is something I can live with in order to enjoy the good qualities of the light. As soon as HDS (or another manufacturer) comes out with a light that has a smoother beam and just as useful a UI, I'll be replacing my Rotary.
 
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bondr006

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+1 Amen Chris201W. The beam from my HDS T200 clicky is pretty nice, but the beam from my Rotary is not nice. It is hard for me to understand why there is such a difference in beam quality beween the two. They are both the newest models that Henry has, and for all intents and purposes look almost identical cosmetically. I cannot even tell the difference in the reflectors until I turn them on and compare their beams side by side. Like the others, I expect a better quality smooth beam from a light at this price point.....and I do not consider that expectation silly or unwarranted. I have several XP-G R5 lights ranging from a quarter to half the price of the Rotary that all have smooth as butter beams. If the major production Chinese companies can do it for less, why can't HDS do it?

HDS T200 Clicky
6HDST-200clicky.jpg


HDS Rotary
5HDSRotary.jpg
 

matrixshaman

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How many of your Rotaries have an LED that is not perfectly centered? Mine wasn't and it caused a partial outer ring. After much debate I returned the light for an exchange. I talked to the vendor and they said all the rotaries they had in stock had LEDs that weren't centered however they had the normal outer ring like in everyone's pictures. I was a bit shocked to hear this as I figured I got a lemon. I thought about it for a while and called them back and told them to send me another light as long as the beam looked "normal".

Please don't think I'm bashing. I'm trying to gather objective information. I really love the rotary and the HDS UI. It's just hard to believe that I'm paying $200 for a light with a less than perfect beam. I can only hope the ring will be fixed in the future as it would be the perfect light.

Here is a pic of the LED. Notice it's off center in 2 corners.


This is a horrible beam shot because of my cheap camera but you can see the dark ring only on the right side and not the left.

Judging from the shadows in the close up picture as well as a close look at the orange peel in the picture that it looks like your camera is off center in the direction which would make the LED appear off center. Has no one else noticed this? Or your camera angle was not perpendicular. I'm not saying it is intentional but you need pictures to be correct if you are going to make such statements. I just looked at mine critically close (I got a Rotary very early on before most here had one) and I think I could say it is not perfectly centered but that's the first time I noticed and it sure does not make any difference in the real world. I've done white wall hunting with it and never noticed anything off center but I can't say I was looking for that either. I was thrilled he's got the tint good on them now and the overall function exceeds all other lights I know of. Henry's never claimed to sell art pieces ;)
 

matrixshaman

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't see how anyone can defend the beamshots in this post. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stems-EDC-14&p=3683686&viewfull=1#post3683686

Like I said, I know that the beam can be fixed and hopefully with enough people asking for it to be fixed it eventually will be. Heck, if you look at my beamshot the off centered LED makes 50% of the beam edge look fairly smooth. Who knows, the large diameter hole in the bottom of the reflector could be to compensate for the off centered LEDs. That is just my theory though and is purely the speculation of a noob wannabe flashaholic.

Also, something to think about. If you were going to buy a HDS high cri light would you want the more expensive Rotary beam or the clicky beam? AFAIK they both have the same amount of lumens but the Rotary costs more but it does come with the Rotary and a ring in the beam.

My gripe isn't personal. It's only about the off centered LED and ringy beam.

I'll take the challenge of defending that or in this case at least pointing out that that was not a useful or usual beam shot that most people have used in the past. That beam shot is ONE FOOT from the wall. Most lights are not going to look good that close to a wall and that is not the usual way people do beam shots in the past. I'll bet someone went through a lot of lights to find any other lights that looked good at 1 foot from the wall. I've got over 80 lights and very few look good that close to a wall. Not a good test and with most lights on high or near high you will see a lot of garbage. However if you turn the brightness down on the HDS Rotary when it is one foot from the wall as one would expect you don't need much brightness that close to anything then the beam does not look bad at all.
 

bondr006

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Besides the three foot wall shots I posted, I decided to do some outdoor shots. These are 30 feet, both at max output, with the same camera settings. As you can see the T200 has a narrower more intense beam with a much nicer tint than the Rotary. They are both new models with an XP-G R5. Quite a difference there. Is a different reflector being used in the Rotary?

HDS T200
HDST200-1.jpg


HDS Rotary
HDSRotary-1.jpg
 

Chris201W

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I'll take the challenge of defending that or in this case at least pointing out that that was not a useful or usual beam shot that most people have used in the past. That beam shot is ONE FOOT from the wall. Most lights are not going to look good that close to a wall and that is not the usual way people do beam shots in the past. I'll bet someone went through a lot of lights to find any other lights that looked good at 1 foot from the wall. I've got over 80 lights and very few look good that close to a wall. Not a good test and with most lights on high or near high you will see a lot of garbage. However if you turn the brightness down on the HDS Rotary when it is one foot from the wall as one would expect you don't need much brightness that close to anything then the beam does not look bad at all.

That particular beamshot, being only a foot from the wall, may not be a valid example of the ringiness in the beam, but look at the three outdoor beamshots in the same post. They're all (as far as I can tell) taken at a greater distance, yet the rings are still there and are still obvious. My Rotary has a beam pattern similar to that light both at 1 foot and at the ranges shown in the outdoor shots. I posted a beamshot a few pages back (I think in #14) that was taken at 5 feet and displays distinct rings and tint variation. I'd be willing to bet there's variation in how obvious the rings are from one Rotary to another, which may (partially) account for the varying degrees of satisfaction with the beam pattern. There may be a "Rotary ring lottery," so to speak. What I can tell you is my particular Rotary, and from what I can tell the Rotary balloonshark was referencing, have distinctly ringy beams at all practical distances, not just close to a white wall. From what I've gathered, Rotaries have this issue, despite a lucky few who may have beams with negligible rings. Whether the rings actually matter to a particular individual is up to that individual to decide. There's no point in trying to convince each other that we should or shouldn't care about the rings. And there's especially no point in debating whether or not Rotaries actually have ringy beams at real world distances, when it's been documented quite thoroughly here.

Also, I tend not to doubt balloonshark when he says his emitter is off-center. He's the one holding the light, looking at it from all angles, making a real meaningful judgement. I don't think the possibility of his picture being poorly aligned is enough of a reason to doubt him. I bet the shadow at the 7 o'clock position on the PCB is a result of the offset between the flash and the lens on his camera. Besides, with the bottom of the reflector and the emitter being so close to each other relative to their distance from the camera, the parallax shift from a slightly misaligned camera probably would not be enough to create the impression that the emitter is that off-center.

EDIT: bondr006, I have to say, the difference between those two beams isn't nearly as obvious in the outdoor shots as in the white wall shots. From my experience, I'd guess it's more obvious in person. As far was the cause of those differences, it could be different reflectors. Assuming the lights are using the same reflector, though, it may just be production variation. The emitter isn't going to be focused exactly the same on every light, and a very minor difference could mean the difference between minimal or no rings and quite obvious rings. Additionally, tint variation is a well-known phenomenon with LEDs.
 
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