Why Titanium?
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TORCH_BOY
Flashlight Enthusiast
I like the L0P-SE-Ti , just can't be bothered with the processes of getiing it,
greenLED said:
And ironically, when you determine how hot somthing is by touch, your senses measure how much heat is transferred to or from your body by touch, not by sensing the actual temperature and a thermocouple would.
Therefore, when first pick up an aluminum flashlight, it will feel a lot colder to the skin than titanium, due to how quickly it conduts heat. You might think they are different temperatures.
So yes, they can be used interchangeably in a non-scientific setting. It's only human.
TORCH_BOY said:
Same here. I'm also very skeptical about the price being "close to cost". Actually, I think it's horse pucky but if it isn't it's because they limited production, the Ti aspect most likely has nothing to do with it.
I'm also somewhat disgusted with the whole titanium thing. Titanium is popular, first and foremost because it's called "Titanium" whoever named the stuff produced a marketers dream. I'm not saying that all those on CPF like the stuff solely because of it's name but the popular reknown of titanium is 98% name.
What I am saying is that the larger than life rep of titanium is based on ignorant people reading more into the name than they should causing an artificial esteem for a decent metal. It really isn't very scratch resistant, certainly more than bare aluminum but there are lots of materials much more scratch resistantit can't even raise it's head for scratch resistance in the presence of hard anodized aluminum. It is fairly tough but heat conductivity sucks. It is easily anodizeable but the anodize isn't worthwhile for anything that will be used as a tool.
Finally, ti is disgusting because people here on cpf really want the crap way too much. I also think that there is a degree of unspoken cooperation at keeping runs limited and ti light prices inflated.
Ti is really a lousy material for lights and the fact that folks are willing to pay so much for the wrong material means that there is a dead end in innovation towards finding materials that really are superior to anodized aluminum. Ti certainly isn't better at anything worthwhile except getting higher prices for limited run lights.
If titanium was really a better material for flashlights, the U.S. military would use it as they don't seem to think twice about building near entire submarines out of the stuff.
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Xochi,
You are entitled to this opinion but as a statement of fact, I call BS:
And while I'm at it, the reason I do limited runs of Ti beyond real time considerations is due to the expense to me as well as suspected lack of larger market due to the cost of a Ti light to a customer. I have no spoken or unspoken agreements or communication with anyone else doing something in Ti. I welcome you to make or machine something out of Ti and Al and you tell me which you would charge more for if you were to consider any level of production.
In general terms, I think the best material for flashlights is a properly chosen plastic. Unfortunately thermal considerations make it less than ideal if viable at all in many cases.
Scratches are cosmetic. If cosmetic is of primary concern then Ti may loose out to other materials. Scratches may become corrosion points on some materials which not only may be cosmetic but also functional problems depending on their location.
If Ti is a really lousy material for flashlights, could you expand on that a bit?
In your post, I sense more sour grapes than real material substance. :shrug:
I think in the majority of cases and applications, Ti is unnecessary and an expensive overkill. 2/3's of the planet is covered with stuff though that welcomes this mistress with an open embrace.
Show me a material that is less prone to degradation over time and use and abuse than Ti. The important part of a flashlight is inside the flashlight. One objective of a flashlight's exterior is to protect and defend the interior from exposure and damage in use and hostile environments. The paint job doesn't matter but the integrity of the shell does. Show me a better material than Ti for this shell. I agree you can show me a more cost effective material but with price aside, show me a better material. Your examples as well as my response will require qualifications that we may or may not agree upon.
The subject of this thread is "Why Titanium". For me the answer is easy and straight forward: Because I can and choose to do so, price be damned. I am a flashaholic and want to take my lights where ever I may go without concern for their well being. I don't want a tool that is inherently disposable. If I choose to dispose of it or retire it that is one thing. I don't want it to dictate a need for replacement. The mistress has a high sticker price but she is not high maintenance, IMHO.
You are entitled to this opinion but as a statement of fact, I call BS:
And while I'm at it, the reason I do limited runs of Ti beyond real time considerations is due to the expense to me as well as suspected lack of larger market due to the cost of a Ti light to a customer. I have no spoken or unspoken agreements or communication with anyone else doing something in Ti. I welcome you to make or machine something out of Ti and Al and you tell me which you would charge more for if you were to consider any level of production.
In general terms, I think the best material for flashlights is a properly chosen plastic. Unfortunately thermal considerations make it less than ideal if viable at all in many cases.
Scratches are cosmetic. If cosmetic is of primary concern then Ti may loose out to other materials. Scratches may become corrosion points on some materials which not only may be cosmetic but also functional problems depending on their location.
If Ti is a really lousy material for flashlights, could you expand on that a bit?
In your post, I sense more sour grapes than real material substance. :shrug:
I think in the majority of cases and applications, Ti is unnecessary and an expensive overkill. 2/3's of the planet is covered with stuff though that welcomes this mistress with an open embrace.
Show me a material that is less prone to degradation over time and use and abuse than Ti. The important part of a flashlight is inside the flashlight. One objective of a flashlight's exterior is to protect and defend the interior from exposure and damage in use and hostile environments. The paint job doesn't matter but the integrity of the shell does. Show me a better material than Ti for this shell. I agree you can show me a more cost effective material but with price aside, show me a better material. Your examples as well as my response will require qualifications that we may or may not agree upon.
The subject of this thread is "Why Titanium". For me the answer is easy and straight forward: Because I can and choose to do so, price be damned. I am a flashaholic and want to take my lights where ever I may go without concern for their well being. I don't want a tool that is inherently disposable. If I choose to dispose of it or retire it that is one thing. I don't want it to dictate a need for replacement. The mistress has a high sticker price but she is not high maintenance, IMHO.
McGizmo said:
I was just thinking the same thing. Some of my oldest flashlights are made with sanopreme type material. They float, take bumps and drops in stride, and are cheap enough to replace without worry if lost.
Your other comments are appropriate and a good counterpoint. Thanks for taking the time to post.
I personally enjoy titanium jewelry. They are extremely comfortable to wear, and no more expensive than gold. Titanium certainly has it's place in Engineering and Fashion.
I wouldn't blast anyone who likes their flashlight to be fashionable. There are a lot of worse things in the world people do!
Don,
Choice of material is certainly done to suit application. While your application in seawater , despite not marketing them as dive or swim lights certainly does exploit one of ti's strengths, Generally speaking though, I say Ti is lousy for flashlights because , relatively speaking, it has so few merits superior to other more common and cheaper materials that naturally, anyone with eyes open and not financially vested in a particular material will boldly agree that the funcional properties of titanium make it a poor material for use in a flashlights when cheaper and more effective materials and processes exist.
No need for you to take things personally or get defensive by characterizeing my post as "sour grapes" and attempting to undermine it's merit. I really must be honest and sincere and say that I found the consequences of the Ti PD offering to be really ugly and generally bring out the worst in folks. I didn't even attempt to purchase one as the wait finally had me questioning the decision given that that kind of money isn't something I can afford to spend frivolously in a one pop shot especially haveing never even seen the light in person.
Take a look at Jim schecters HDS light a that has been literally hurled on concrete by customers. Apparently those aluminum lights are vastly overbuilt as well since his light , though intentionally abused , utilizes no titanium yet still functions very well.
In all honesty, the use of Ti in "custom lights" also seems to use the custom knife market as a model where makers are no longer consider tool makers but artists. Artistic works certainly do command higher prices than tools and use of titanium allows those who seek to justify an artistic purchase with some degree of matierals based "function over form may do so ".Titanium is a favourite material in that situation and rightly so, since it is corrosion resistant and anodizes well (nice for unused artistic tools) among other virtues that have been stated.
Since the title is "Why titanium?" then clarifying that much of ti's rep is based on hype and assumptions stemming from the name of the element is certainly fair game. Ti has applications, no doubt but even you must agree that really, if we're talking about materials application , a single element doesn't cut it and even the shells you make are alloys. No doubt other alloys of elements have the qualities you value and would like to debate (sorry, not interested) but don't have quite the marketability and pricing trends that something with a name like TITAN IUM does.
Don, I hate to say it but, how seriously can I take your opinion when you're investing and making thousands on the popularity of the metal? Why not let the less financially vested explore the merits of the metal in the tradition that was meant for forums and leave the informercial for a BST type thread?
Choice of material is certainly done to suit application. While your application in seawater , despite not marketing them as dive or swim lights certainly does exploit one of ti's strengths, Generally speaking though, I say Ti is lousy for flashlights because , relatively speaking, it has so few merits superior to other more common and cheaper materials that naturally, anyone with eyes open and not financially vested in a particular material will boldly agree that the funcional properties of titanium make it a poor material for use in a flashlights when cheaper and more effective materials and processes exist.
No need for you to take things personally or get defensive by characterizeing my post as "sour grapes" and attempting to undermine it's merit. I really must be honest and sincere and say that I found the consequences of the Ti PD offering to be really ugly and generally bring out the worst in folks. I didn't even attempt to purchase one as the wait finally had me questioning the decision given that that kind of money isn't something I can afford to spend frivolously in a one pop shot especially haveing never even seen the light in person.
Take a look at Jim schecters HDS light a that has been literally hurled on concrete by customers. Apparently those aluminum lights are vastly overbuilt as well since his light , though intentionally abused , utilizes no titanium yet still functions very well.
In all honesty, the use of Ti in "custom lights" also seems to use the custom knife market as a model where makers are no longer consider tool makers but artists. Artistic works certainly do command higher prices than tools and use of titanium allows those who seek to justify an artistic purchase with some degree of matierals based "function over form may do so ".Titanium is a favourite material in that situation and rightly so, since it is corrosion resistant and anodizes well (nice for unused artistic tools) among other virtues that have been stated.
Since the title is "Why titanium?" then clarifying that much of ti's rep is based on hype and assumptions stemming from the name of the element is certainly fair game. Ti has applications, no doubt but even you must agree that really, if we're talking about materials application , a single element doesn't cut it and even the shells you make are alloys. No doubt other alloys of elements have the qualities you value and would like to debate (sorry, not interested) but don't have quite the marketability and pricing trends that something with a name like TITAN IUM does.
Don, I hate to say it but, how seriously can I take your opinion when you're investing and making thousands on the popularity of the metal? Why not let the less financially vested explore the merits of the metal in the tradition that was meant for forums and leave the informercial for a BST type thread?
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TranquillityBase
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I think Ti is like some of the posts on this thread, superfluous...
TB
TB
D@rk Messenger
Enlightened
"Titanium is a favourite material in that situation and rightly so, since it is corrosion resistant and anodizes well (nice for unused artistic tools) among other virtues that have been stated."
If what you are saying IS true, why the heck do people use titanium nitride on cutting tools, and as for your other comments, I would like to know WHAT ARE YOU BASING YOUR FACTS ON?! Titanium is much more non reactive than pretty much EVERY OTHER FLASHLIGHT METAL! How do you think aluminum gets anodized? It's just an accelerated form of oxidation, so any scratches would cause it to oxidize and dull over time and eventually ruin the threads without proper maintenance, and it is by far much softer, for the HDS, why do you thing the lens can be broken if the bezel hits the ground on an angle?? (it's too soft and deforms!). Sure you can do similar things with stainless steel, but on terms with reactivity, it just isn't up to par and still will rust, even against sea water, as ferrous materials WILL ALWAYS RUST. If you want to keep your lights looking new, then titanium would be more viable (especially if coated with TiN, which is MUCH harder than aluminum oxide or chromium).Just my 2 cents.
If what you are saying IS true, why the heck do people use titanium nitride on cutting tools, and as for your other comments, I would like to know WHAT ARE YOU BASING YOUR FACTS ON?! Titanium is much more non reactive than pretty much EVERY OTHER FLASHLIGHT METAL! How do you think aluminum gets anodized? It's just an accelerated form of oxidation, so any scratches would cause it to oxidize and dull over time and eventually ruin the threads without proper maintenance, and it is by far much softer, for the HDS, why do you thing the lens can be broken if the bezel hits the ground on an angle?? (it's too soft and deforms!). Sure you can do similar things with stainless steel, but on terms with reactivity, it just isn't up to par and still will rust, even against sea water, as ferrous materials WILL ALWAYS RUST. If you want to keep your lights looking new, then titanium would be more viable (especially if coated with TiN, which is MUCH harder than aluminum oxide or chromium).Just my 2 cents.
Art Vandelay
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Does anybody have a titanium flashlight that they wish was aluminum?
D@rk Messenger said:
Oh, that's right, these flashlights aren't made of 6al4v or some other ti alloy or CP ti, the reason they are so expensive is that they are all solid Titanium nitride. :laughing:
Come on now, those TiN coated functioning tools are STEEL! With TiN deposited on them. Not Titanium.
The annodizing I was refering to is the multicolored voltage dependent type that is used artisiically. It is damn hard stuff but very easy to abrade off so typically they are used on knives as artistic embellishments.
Roccomo
Enlightened
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xochi said:
xochi, no attack on you but I don't think Don is trying to make a 'cheaper' light.
I don't own a Ti light. What I like about these high end lights, some of which are made of Ti, is that they are not built to the lowest common denominator. It's nice to have access to products that can't be bought at Walmart.
As for Ti, I'd get it if I could afford it but for now I'll have to be satisfied to look at pics of on this forum.
WAVE_PARTICLE
Flashlight Enthusiast
Why make a flashlight out of titanium...... why not?
Poor thermal conductivity? Relatively speaking, I would say it is worse than aluminum....sure! But is thermal dissipation the ONLY attribute that makes a flashlight great? Of course not! There are a whole series of qualities that make a flashlight. How do you define a great flashlight? You can't because it depends on your target market.
Don builds his flashlights with a specific market in mind. His Ti flashlights are not poor heat conductors. "Poor" is a relative term. They are simply not as good of a conductor as aluminum. Just like aluminum is not as good of a conductor as copper. If that's so important to you, you might as well be buying copper flashlights!
In my opinion, the advantage of a titanium flashlight is in its strength and high resistance to corrosion. An HDS flashlight may survive being thrown onto a concrete floor just the same as a Ti-PD, but once that anodize layer is breached, the damage is irreversable. The HDS light will begin its slow corrosion....the aesthetics permanently flawed. The Ti-PD will simply walk away with a minor nick that can be polished away and it will be 100% intact with the same corrosion resistance like it was new. THERE IS VALUE IN THIS QUALITY! To say it doesn't.....well that just simply means you are not part of the target market of Don's Ti flashlights..... period.
So why Ti? I say why not?
Why is a tank so damn heavy? It's not fuel efficient! Well... fuel efficiency runs secondary to the primary purpose of the tank.
Just like thermal conductivity runs secondary to the primary purpose of a Ti Flashlight...
WP
Poor thermal conductivity? Relatively speaking, I would say it is worse than aluminum....sure! But is thermal dissipation the ONLY attribute that makes a flashlight great? Of course not! There are a whole series of qualities that make a flashlight. How do you define a great flashlight? You can't because it depends on your target market.
Don builds his flashlights with a specific market in mind. His Ti flashlights are not poor heat conductors. "Poor" is a relative term. They are simply not as good of a conductor as aluminum. Just like aluminum is not as good of a conductor as copper. If that's so important to you, you might as well be buying copper flashlights!
In my opinion, the advantage of a titanium flashlight is in its strength and high resistance to corrosion. An HDS flashlight may survive being thrown onto a concrete floor just the same as a Ti-PD, but once that anodize layer is breached, the damage is irreversable. The HDS light will begin its slow corrosion....the aesthetics permanently flawed. The Ti-PD will simply walk away with a minor nick that can be polished away and it will be 100% intact with the same corrosion resistance like it was new. THERE IS VALUE IN THIS QUALITY! To say it doesn't.....well that just simply means you are not part of the target market of Don's Ti flashlights..... period.
So why Ti? I say why not?
Why is a tank so damn heavy? It's not fuel efficient! Well... fuel efficiency runs secondary to the primary purpose of the tank.
Just like thermal conductivity runs secondary to the primary purpose of a Ti Flashlight...
WP
TranquillityBase
Flashlight Enthusiast
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Does anybody want to trade their solid gold radial tires, for some Titanium flashlight parts?
TB
TB
WAVE_PARTICLE
Flashlight Enthusiast
TranquillityBase said:
:lolsign:
TranquillityBase
Flashlight Enthusiast
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You've got a lotta solid gold radial tires in that there sig line WP...
TB
TB
X Racer
Enlightened
I think that Ti is awesome for its light weight and durability properties. The only real issue is indeed its lack of thermal transfer.
My question to Don and others who have tested these things is "Do you feel or have you seen any evidence that using Ti has any negative effects on LED efficiency because of the poor heat transfer as compared to aluminum ?
If there is no penalty to be paid in the heat transfer and therefore LED efficiency, then why not use Titanium ?
My question to Don and others who have tested these things is "Do you feel or have you seen any evidence that using Ti has any negative effects on LED efficiency because of the poor heat transfer as compared to aluminum ?
If there is no penalty to be paid in the heat transfer and therefore LED efficiency, then why not use Titanium ?
D@rk Messenger
Enlightened
xochi said:
I'm talking about the properties of the finish itself, and not the substrate, steel and titanium have very similar properties as a substrate which is titanium, which would be more ideal since TOOL STEEL (or any steel in general) RUSTS! (I'm not an idiot you know) Also the flaking away you describe only applies to thck coatings! I don't see hard ano fairing any better than TiN.
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