LODCE - Why am I using 10440's?

OrlandoLights

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Didn't on any of mine and I've had all the L0 versions.

No they aren't. Silly statement. A black widow spider perhaps but a 10440 battery, No. I've had five of them laying around the study and in and out of torches for the past few years. Not one of them has exploded, leaked acid or bit my hand off.

A tin of flour can blow up under the correct conditions but so what.

A tin of flour blowing up doesn't spread dangerously toxic chemicals.

People have posted about burning out their LOD with 10440s.

Some of what you say in this particular post is from your personal experience, and unless you own thousands of 10440s, doesn't really bear on the actual risk. If there are statistics on different Li-ions battery types and brands, I can't find them. If we had them, we could make more informed decisions.

But CPF has active and informed users of AW's batteries, and based on what I read here, like you, I feel comfortable using these batteries.
 
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Jay R

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A tin of flour blowing up doesn't spread dangerously toxic chemicals.

OK. I'll concede that.

My general point was that loads of things are dangerous. You can cut yourself with a kitchen knife, the boiler can leak carbon monoxide, you can fall off a bike, get run over or even spill a saucepan of hot oil on yourself. Most of which will do you far more damage than a cell venting in your pocket or charger. You don't worry about all the other stuff so aren't we overreacting a bit about this ???
 

Marduke

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No they aren't. Silly statement. A black widow spider perhaps but a 10440 battery, No. I've had five of them laying around the study and in and out of torches for the past few years. Not one of them has exploded, leaked acid or bit my hand off.

Often leave mine on all night and take the cell out in the morning. I sleep fine.

You know loads of the Americans here talk about how they won't use an unprotected cell because "it's dangerous" and you see the same people on other threads talking about how it's not dangerous to have a handgun in the house cause it's on the high shelf out of the kids reach, etc...

I'm glad YOU have no problems with YOUR 10440 cells. Do you have a wife or kids in the house? Do THEY know to NOT use those cells in everyday electronics like the remote control or children's toys?

The problem with the 10440 is that it looks identical (to a nonflashaholic) to a regular AAA cell, and when used as such WILL have unfortunate consequences. And there is no protection circuit to safeguard against any such incident.

All other common lithium ion cells either don't look like (wrong size) to be confused with other more common cells, or have a protection circuit to prevent mishaps, or both.

Also, promoting leaving an unprotected lithium cell to charge is unattended is dangerous and irresponsible.

Nice touch with the anti-american comment. Real classy...
 

Woods Walker

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You know loads of the Americans here talk about how they won't use an unprotected cell because "it's dangerous" and you see the same people on other threads talking about how it's not dangerous to have a handgun in the house cause it's on the high shelf out of the kids reach, etc...

What?:thinking:
 

Jay R

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Do you have a wife or kids in the house? Do THEY know to NOT use those cells in everyday electronics like the remote control or children's toys?

Yes, Yes and Yes. (Well, my son is 2 but he knows not to touch.)

The problem with the 10440 is that it looks identical (to a nonflashaholic) to a regular AAA cell, and when used as such WILL have unfortunate consequences. And there is no protection circuit to safeguard against any such incident.

But that wasn't the argument brought up not to use them was it. The point was, should WE be afraid of using them in OUR torches.

All other common lithium ion cells either don't look like (wrong size) to be confused with other more common cells, or have a protection circuit to prevent mishaps, or both.

Prevent mishaps to the cell perhaps but it won't stop your radio from going bang and catching fire cause it's expecting 4aa cells at 1.5v and someone put in 4 at 4.2v.

Also, promoting leaving an unprotected lithium cell to charge is unattended is dangerous and irresponsible.
Why ? You ever put some AA NiMH cells in a 15 min Eveready charger? If the auto shut-off of the charger goes wrong they will explode within an hour and burn your house down just the same as a lithium charger. What's the difference.

Nice touch with the anti-american comment. Real classy...
Wasn't intended to be. I had to think of something dangerous left lying around the house that people tried to say wasn't dangerous. Guns and Americans was the first thing that came into my head. Plus, most people on here are Americans. If it was mostly Filipinos, I'd have said dynamite cause loads of them use it for fishing and have it around the house.
Choosing an example that an American audience would recognise doesn't make me anti American.
 

Marduke

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But that wasn't the argument brought up not to use them was it. The point was, should WE be afraid of using them in OUR torches.

Prevent mishaps to the cell perhaps but it won't stop your radio from going bang and catching fire cause it's expecting 4aa cells at 1.5v and someone put in 4 at 4.2v.

Why ? You ever put some AA NiMH cells in a 15 min Eveready charger? If the auto shut-off of the charger goes wrong they will explode within an hour and burn your house down just the same as a lithium charger. What's the difference.

The argument was that they are dangerous IN GENERAL, not just with us. They are ONLY safe when used by an experienced and EDUCATED user. When in the hands of someone who is not educated to proper use and handling, or is just barely educated enough to be dangerous (see post 20 above for example), bad things will eventually happen.

There is a very good reason 10440 cells are not consumer cells in any way, shape, or form. They are enthusiast cells ONLY, and should be used as such ONLY when properly educated about their use and operation.

And adding a protection circuit does help prevent other things from going poof, because it breaks the circuit when something bad happens.

And as with Li-Ion, the 15 minute chargers SHOULD be monitored when used, but most of CPF has abandoned them for various reasons so it's rather a moot point.
 

Jay R

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OK. I'll agree that they should only be used by someone who knows what they are doing because of the potential for miss-use otherwise.

Not sure I argree with you about the protection circuit. Put two 4.2v lithium cells in double AA maglite and the protection circuit won't trip but see the bulb go 'Pop'. Same if you put them in anything else. Got a radio that's expecting 6v and a 200mA draw, change the AA's to lithiums and they will push 16.8v and anything up to 15 or 20 times the current. The circuits in the cells won't trip but the radio will still go Bang and may result in a fire. I stand by what I said on this one. The protection circuit protects the cells, not what they have been put in.

As for the Energizer/Duracell/ etc.. charger. I agree that they should be watched but hundereds of thousands of households have them and I bet most don't think twice about putting them on and going out or to bed.

All I'm trying to say is that if they are used properly they are not really any more dangerous that a hundered other things that we have around the house. I wouldn't want my 2 year old playing with an unprotected 10440 but I wouldn't want him to play with a kitchen knife, gas hob, lawnmower, fan heater or box of matches either.
I think that using phrases such as "Very Dangerous", "Inherently Dangerous", "Volatile", etc... is, in my opinion, over egging the caution pudding.
 

electric sheep

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Alkaline leak and when shorted can cause fire. You would not let a child play with any battery chemistry when it's AAA size as they are easy to swallow. We have a problem in the UK with Draconian Firearm laws because people where hysterical over protective and did not understand the real dangers and risks of illegal guns not private ownership..
 

kitelights

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Anyone who gets hysterical and wonders if their cell is going to blow up should not be using them because it's obvious that they don't know enough about them to be using them. That can easily be remedied by learning about them and there's a wealth of information here on CPF to do so.

They are potentially much more dangerous than other chemistries that we use and need to be respected as such. When we see obviously uninformed members making statements that show their lack of understanding about them, I think that concerned, educated members like Marduke taking their time to make them aware of potential dangers and the need to learn about them deserves gratitude, not scolding.

If we have to err on the side of caution or recklessness, which do you think is more responsible?

You do sound far more capable than me - I never mastered teaching a 2 year not to touch. I have, however, been successful having a gun in my home without incident maintaining the ability to protect my family should the need arise.

There was only one issue of the LOD CE that I'm aware of that specified that it was safe to use a 10440 in it. For the majority of LODs, I've read posts of members that use 10440s w/o incident and others who have had their lights ruined. I conclude that it's a crap shoot. I'm too practical to risk a $40-50 light for a few extra lumens, but each to their own. When I've purchased a used LOD CE, one of my requirements is that it has not used a 10440 and it's a common enough concern that sales threads will often state it. Just because someone says that using a cell that is not recommended in a light hasn't affected it, doesn't mean that it hasn't affected it.
 

Jay R

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They are potentially much more dangerous than other chemistries that we use and need to be respected as such. When we see obviously uninformed members making statements that show their lack of understanding about them.
Sorry, you are missing the point that I am trying to make. Yes, I agree that they contain more dangerous chemistries that other betteries. I'm not disputing that.
They are however safer than a hundred other things that we don't panic about such as kitchen knives, matches, lighters, cookers. They may even be safer than the millions of 15min chargers used around the world. I'd personally feel safer carrying a 10440 in a torch in my pocket than a Zippo filled with petrol.
I'm not saying that they are safe, I'm saying that they are no more dangerous that a whole bunch of other things and we don't see a new thread every week about how dangerous using a 15 min charger so why are so many people fixated on this ?

My theory is that people 'understand' ( or believe they 'understand' ) things like fast chargers, lighters, matches, ovens, etc.. and, as a result, don't feel theratened by them. As lithium cells are a bit more unknown, they act overcautious towards them.

Knowing the facts, thinking about the problem and then coming to a conclusion isn't "uninformed" just because my conclusion is different to yours. Personally I's say that having a knee-jerk reaction and screaming to everyone about how dangerous thay are is much more uninformed.

As a separate issue, and I will admit to no knowledge on the subject, but from what I have heard, hasn't it been fairly well established that having a gun in your house for 'protection' increases the risk of harm to the family?
( That's not me having a go, I'm just asking because that's what I heard from a number of reports and surveys )

Finally, I may have taught him not to touch but he still hasn't got the potty training sorted out yet.
 
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Jay R

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I also just realised that you are contradicting yourself. You imply that you have a gun in your house but it's never harmed anyone so it's safe. And in the same breath you are saying that I have a 10440 in my house that's never harmed anyone but it's dangerous. Sorry, I can't understand how anyone would happily have a gun in the house but worry about a 10440.
 

tsask

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. Sorry, I can't understand how anyone would happily have a gun in the house but worry about a 10440.

Fair point to ponder, yet possibly an errant 10440 could "poof!":oops:if left alone, unattended under extreme circumstances. It would be unlikely for an unattended, firearm to self discharge. I know it could fall off a table and accidentally discharge,:eek: whereas the 10440 would not be effected by such an application of gravity. The loaded firearm, while holding an "small explosive charge", does not have any caustic chemicals that would prove hazardous in the event of an expolosion.

Either way, this is not an a activity for children, or the cognitively challanged.
 

Marduke

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I also just realised that you are contradicting yourself. You imply that you have a gun in your house but it's never harmed anyone so it's safe. And in the same breath you are saying that I have a 10440 in my house that's never harmed anyone but it's dangerous. Sorry, I can't understand how anyone would happily have a gun in the house but worry about a 10440.


No, we are implying that you must be properly educated and observe proper storage and operation procedures for BOTH.

However, some of the above comments show a severe lack of knowledge of proper operation with respect to even the most basic of Li-Ion safety (and gun safety for that matter).
 

Benson

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As a separate issue, and I will admit to no knowledge on the subject, but from what I have heard, hasn't it been fairly well established that having a gun in your house for 'protection' increases the risk of harm to the family?
( That's not me having a go, I'm just asking because that's what I heard from a number of reports and surveys )
This is really getting quite off-topic, but no, practically nothing about firearms has been conclusively established, for a couple reasons. There are some studies that conclude (or are claimed to conclude) that, but they're rather full of holes. More on that, but as to why nobody proves anything...

Firearms ownership and safety is a highly polarized issue, by which I mean that most researchers have already formed a very strong opinion, and so are unlikely to produce objective results. (Obviously, this shouldn't matter -- it's possible to design research activities honestly, obtain data, and produce the results, whether you like them or not -- but in practice skewed and incomplete studies seem prevalent.) Secondly, you have two distinct groups, following different lines of argument (beware, mad generalizations coming up!):
  • On the anti-gun side, the running argument is "guns make life dangerous, ban them", and it's academic-heavy, so the natural thing for academics to do is perform studies. So you get studies purporting to show how many deaths are caused by guns, or by certain circumstances combined with guns.
  • On the pro-gun side, arguments don't center as much on "guns make life safer", although this point is made in passing to discredit the anti-gunners, and is generally accepted. They're more concerned with liberty and rights -- some will even go so far as to say that, even if it could be conclusively proven that deaths, violent crime, or whatever would decrease with a gun ban, they would still oppose it, because it's morally wrong to forcibly disarm people for their own safety. So they don't do correlation studies as much, but tend to write essays and the like on why disarmament laws are wrong, on the benefits of an armed populace against crime, tyranny, and invasion, and on why the anti-gun studies don't prove what most people think they do.

As to what's wrong with the studies, there's some serious issues with the data used -- IIRC, the big "guns in home 40ish times more likely to kill good guys than bad guys" study (aside from the whole premise that we should judge the safety a gun might provide by counting dead bad guys) counted gun suicides in the "kills good guys" column, when suicides were about 90% of the gun deaths; the conclusion, as usually understood, presumes that all or almost all suicide perps would not have killed themselves by other means if there was no gun available. Some studies use medical statistics which are very ill-suited to gun control debates, because some medically unimportant details are not tracked, and make unreasonable assumptions about the missing data. Some studies count a bad drug deal between relatives in the "family member hurt" category -- technically a correct classification, but not what most people are thinking of when they read the condensed conclusions.

And finally, correlation does not imply causation -- given a correlation between guns in the home and family members being harmed, it could be that people in crimeridden areas are more likely to own a gun for defense, and more likely to be harmed, not that having the gun adds the risk of harm.

If you're interested in detailed analysis of specific studies, check guncite.com.

Despite the lack of solid studies, I am fairly certain that shooting 10440s out of a gun in the home is unsafe -- I wouldn't do that if I were you. :cool:
 

Jay R

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The loaded firearm, while holding an "small explosive charge", does not have any caustic chemicals that would prove hazardous in the event of an expolosion.
No, but aren't we forgetting the bullet now coming through your bedroom wall ?


No, we are implying that you must be properly educated and observe proper storage and operation procedures for BOTH.
You know what, if you were saying that then I'd totally agree with you but it isn't what the posts say. They say that 10440 cells are, and I quote, Inherently Dangerous, Volatile, using one is very dangerous and suggest that anyone who does is uninformed, irresponsible, living on borrowed time and that bad things will eventually happen.( All quotes)
All I'm saying is that THEY ARE NOT THAT BAD ! I'ts just a battery, not a stick of dynamite. Yes, Sure it can be dangerous if not used properly but so can a car and I don't see anyone saying they should give up driving.
 
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sabre7

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No, we are implying that you must be properly educated and observe proper storage and operation procedures for BOTH.

However, some of the above comments show a severe lack of knowledge of proper operation with respect to even the most basic of Li-Ion safety (and gun safety for that matter).

Any particular reason for perpetuating and escalating this off-topic bickering?
 

1dash1

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Hi, love my LODCE for couple years now and always used 10440s. I only use high for few seconds to Wow people and 99% of time use medium. Yesterday decided to just run it on high to do a runtime (all by eye)...supposed to get like 10 minutes to 50%. On fresh charged battery on High the output started super bright then drastically reduced in about 30 seconds to about medium output and slowly dimmed lower than medium for 10 minutes. I tried couple other batteries. Batteries are over a year old, but the other 2 I never used but couple times before. Shouldn't I get the super bright High for 5 minutes at least before starting to seriously dim.

Then looking at the runtimes I wonder why do I use 10440's since I mostly use medium. Isn't high on nimh same as med on 10440 but with longer runtime? So is only reason to use 10440's for that super bright high you can have for few seconds?

Good point to consider.

The 10440-powered L0D impressed me when I first tried it. However, in practice, I invariably switch to the low mode (or partially shield the light with my fingers) because the light is too bright.

I keep telling myself that the extra brightness is a good thing "just in case". Meanwhile, 99 times out of a hundred, I'd be better off running Eneloops. :shrug:
 

Pontiaker

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Cause he wants to cover his arse legally.


Didn't on any of mine and I've had all the L0 versions.


No they aren't. Silly statement. A black widow spider perhaps but a 10440 battery, No. I've had five of them laying around the study and in and out of torches for the past few years. Not one of them has exploded, leaked acid or bit my hand off.


Often leave mine on all night and take the cell out in the morning. I sleep fine.


A tin of flour can blow up under the correct conditions but so what.


You know loads of the Americans here talk about how they won't use an unprotected cell because "it's dangerous" and you see the same people on other threads talking about how it's not dangerous to have a handgun in the house cause it's on the high shelf out of the kids reach, etc...

If you need further convincing, go short your car battery with a small spanner and see what happens. I don't see anyone here saying that they won't drive their car anymore because the battery is dangerous !

AMEN! Iam so tired of all the doom and gloom about batteries.

Has anyone actually been hurt by one, maybe other than some minor first degree hand burns?

If this is in your hand when something happens, the first thing your going to do is drop the light and step away....Its not a bomb, most lights are so overbuilt they handle the pressure and the o-rings go letting gasses escape....

Come on, pay attention when and what you use, keep it in the back of your mind when your running a light if ANYTHING strange starts to happen, your going to drop it.:thumbsup: This is not rocket science:naughty:
 

22hornet

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Hello,
I've used the L0D CE with 2AAA nimh (Streamlight stylus Pro-body) and the output was great. I gather it is safer to run the L0D CE on 2.4 volt, it seems to be within spec (<3.4volt?) and output is on par with an L2D CE.

Kind regards,
Joris
 
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