Titanium lights vs their Aluminum Cousins?

orcinus

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That would depend on the steel. No titanium alloy is stronger than a high end steel. All it's benefits are in the strength/weight ratio.

Yes, that's what i was aiming at.
Even if you take various steels and titanium alloys into account, the best titanium gets is being as strong or almost as strong as steel.

Also, it does have the strength/weight advantage, but claiming it's "almost as light" or "as light" as aluminium is misleading, as it's 50-60% more dense.
 

Cheapskate

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I would like to see the use of hybrid fibers and other high tech materials in the manufacturing of flashlights.
Carbon fiber tubes could easily be made for flashlight use....Imagine a cool looking CF and Kevlar battery tube....
Yaesumofo

I made an AA powered CF tubed light with red LED's and a slightly larger item with a 7A 12v gel cell powering a 50w halogen bulb. The main body was made from CF/Kevlar foam sandwich with a CF tube handle.
 

js

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Actually, it transfers heat much much worse. So much so that it's not cold to the touch like other metals.

There's more to heat transfer than just conductance of heat. Radiative heat transfer is dominated by the emissivity of the metal, and titanium has a higher e value than Aluminum.
 
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Chronos

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It would be cool to get one of these knives! The problem I am aware of with Nitinol is that it doesn't cut in a mill or lathe or at least didn't when I looked into it. It can be ground but that is really labor intensive!?!?! It is one thing to grind an edge on a blade and quite another to turn or mill a bar stock into a flashlight component. Overkill to be sure! The wire is really fun to do parlor tricks with though! :D

That's what we need- a "McGizmo" NiTiNOL wire- drop a NiTiNOL wire in water and watch it spin itself into "McGizmo!" :)

From what I read it is a BEAST to work with. You are right, grinding a blade is one thing, and that is hard on equipment, and the blanks are incredibly expensive.

So, on to a new challenge, eh Don? :devil:

The McGizmo NiTiNOL LunaSol 20. Kinda like the way that flows off the tongue. :ironic: :eek:oo:
 

js

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Strength is strength. You get to choose between two, yield or ultimate. That's it. Considering we want our flashlights to actually survive any punishment without permanent damage, the yield strength would be the obvious value to choose between the two to compare.

Strength actually isn't just strength. It isn't all about yield strength! You can have a steel that has incredible yield strength, but is too brittle to be of much use in an aircraft wheel strut, for example. You can't just say it is only about yield strength! This is why Titanium is so desirable. If cost were no object, for example, you'd build a submarine out of titanium. The Russians did, in fact. And not just because Ti has superior corrosion resistance, either.

But seriously, it's stupid to be arguing about it like this in this context! There's no question that in many applications, a high end steel alloy is the material of choice. It's also true that in other applications, a Titanium alloy is the material of choice. And, as has been pointed out, we're not using our flashlights as landing struts or golf clubs, so the material that has the absolute highest yield strength isn't really of any moment.

Why Titanium for a flashlight?

For me, it's the look and feel of it, along with the fact that it continues to have good conductivity even with wear and exposure. This is in stark contrast to Al which has to be chemkoted or plated or maintained to ensure low contact resistance joints. And, yes, Ti doesn't conduct as well as copper or aluminum, but we're not talking about a small diameter wire here! There is more than enough material in a flashlight body circuit path to make the difference in Ti vs. Al to be negligible. As for heat transfer, yes, if you are pushing the envelope to the max, anodized Aluminum is the material of choice. But for most practical LED configurations, Titanium handles heat transfer just fine, partially offsetting its lower conductance with a better emissivity. So there is no circuit or heat transfer issue in using Titanium for most lights.

The main benefit, in my opinion, is the look and feel of Ti. You have to handle a Ti light to really understand! It's amazing. And I love that when I drop or scratch my Ti lights, it just becomes part of the patina and doesn't bother me. In fact, a Ti light just gets better and better looking with age, in my opinion. On the other hand, I never much like the look of a missing flake of HA on an Al light, and have somewhat more worry about dropping and scratching my HA lights.

Is Ti the material of choice for a budget or value light? Of course not! But does this mean that Ti is a "stupid" choice for any class of flashlight? Of course not! For high end lights, Titanium is the material of choice, in my opinion (although, I'd love to see a magnesium light.) Titanium lights are joy to the eye and hand, and are meant to weather the ravages of time and use with grace and aplomb. If you haven't experienced a Ti light first hand, withhold your armchair judgements!
 
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Marduke

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Strength actually isn't just strength. It isn't all about yield strength! You can have a steel that has incredible yield strength, but is too brittle to be of much use in an aircraft wheel strut, for example. You can't just say it is only about yield strength! This is why Titanium is so desirable. If cost were no object, for example, you'd build a submarine out of titanium. The Russians did, in fact. And not just because Ti has superior corrosion resistance, either.

Yes, but we are talking about "strength", which is entirely separate from the modulus of elasticity. I never said it was "just about strength", I said that "strength was strength" and there are only two typical values of comparison, yield and ultimate. If you want to get picky, you can expand that to 6 to cover tensile, compressive, and shear values of yield and ultimate.
 

orcinus

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There's more to heat transfer than just conductance of heat. Radiative heat transfer is dominated by the emissivity of the metal, and titanium has a higher e value than Aluminum.

You can emit all the heat in the world, but it won't do you any good (in this particular application) if you can't conduct it off an emitter or a heat sink ;)
 

Hellbore

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You can emit all the heat in the world, but it won't do you any good (in this particular application) if you can't conduct it off an emitter or a heat sink ;)

So what we need to do is, just make a light with a big copper pill, which screws into an aluminum inner body, which has its own brass battery holder (like McGizmo), then the whole aluminum body threads into a Titanium exoskeleton! :D

That way the copper sucks out the heat, transfers it to the Aluminum, which spreads it out and sends it into the titanium, which then emits it?
 

Glenn7

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For me Ti is having a tool that stays looking good that I don't feel I have to baby for fear of scratches in every day use (lights are to me 80% tool/feature and 20% toy) - I hate seeing silver tips on every corner of my black flashlights :mecry: - even just having a light in your pocket gets scrached from change and keys let alone drops or putting it on a rock/ground for hands free working.
Also there is a few different grades of Ti which scratch/ware different - mine is 99.2% Ti - but I suppose the Ti alloy might dissipate any heat better but at expense of hardness/tarnish.
 

Hellbore

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I guess everyone is different, for me, anodized aluminum is more than strong enough, I EDC a Jetbeam and after nearly two years of grinding against my keys in my pocket, being dropped, stepped on occasionally, etc. etc. it still looks pretty nice. Not to mention, my Dad has a Maglite that is decades old and he does NOT baby it, and it looks and works fine. I think a stronger material than aluminum is way overkill for the average person. Aluminum is awesome IMO because it's not the BEST at anything, but it's a compromise that can cover so many bases effectively - It's OK at conducting heat and electricity, OK hardness and durability, and fairly inexpensive. It's the jack of all trades, master of none metal :p
 

orcinus

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So what we need to do is, just make a light with a big copper pill, which screws into an aluminum inner body, which has its own brass battery holder (like McGizmo), then the whole aluminum body threads into a Titanium exoskeleton! :D

That way the copper sucks out the heat, transfers it to the Aluminum, which spreads it out and sends it into the titanium, which then emits it?

Sounds like a Ti PD ;)
 

brighterisbetter

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Some day when I'm wealthy I'm going to buy one of those. I hate being poor :rant:
Just put a little aside now and then, before you know it you'll be able to afford it after all. I'm certainly not a wealthy man, far from it actually, but I've managed to acquire a few McGizmo's via a combination of methods. Primarily, as much as it pains me to do so, by selling off some of my other lights. I assure you......it won't be a bad decision, a McG light is awesome in every aspect.:p
 

Hellbore

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Just put a little aside now and then, before you know it you'll be able to afford it after all. I'm certainly not a wealthy man, far from it actually, but I've managed to acquire a few McGizmo's via a combination of methods. Primarily, as much as it pains me to do so, by selling off some of my other lights. I assure you......it won't be a bad decision, a McG light is awesome in every aspect.:p

Yeah, good advice. Nothing wrong with having an expensive flashlight even if non-flashaholics think it is crazy!

I look at it this way. I'm not a criminal, or an alchoholic, I'm not addicted to drugs or gambling. If flashlights are the worst of my addictions I think that's not so bad :D
 

orcinus

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Yeah, good advice. Nothing wrong with having an expensive flashlight even if non-flashaholics think it is crazy!

I look at it this way. I'm not a criminal, or an alchoholic, I'm not addicted to drugs or gambling. If flashlights are the worst of my addictions I think that's not so bad :D

The expenses might turn out to be same or greater at some point, though :D
 

js

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You can emit all the heat in the world, but it won't do you any good (in this particular application) if you can't conduct it off an emitter or a heat sink ;)

That's true, of course, and it's why a poor conductor of heat poses problems for higher powered LED lights. You have the junction between the LED die and the heat sink, and the junction between the heat sink and the light body, both of which require good conductance. So, I agree.

But . . . the junction between the light body and the air (or hand) has a lot to do with both conductive and radiative heat transfer (and also convection, I suppose). And bare Ti beats bare Al here. However, HA Al beats Ti, if I remember correctly.

The real question to ask about a Ti light is if it has adequate heat sinking and heat transfer to keep the LED die temperature low enough for good light output and longevity. Consider my favorite light, Titanium or otherwise: the LunaSol 20. Don did both a runtime/output test of the LS20, and a thermal test of the LS20 towards the end of that thread (post #104). I stole his images to post here, and also because I will be using them (unless he objects) in my LS20 review.

First the thermal setup he used:

thermal-setup.jpg


The purple masking tape has an emissivity of 1 and allows for an accurate thermal image. The DVM is measuring the temperature of the copper penny, which allowed Don to accurately determine the surface temperatures of the light. And here is the thermal image:

LunaSol20-FLIR.jpg


The hottest part of the lights surface is 47.7 C, which is just about 118 F. This is with the light sitting out in the open after 15 minutes of continuous running on high. This is a worst case scenario. If the light is held in the hand, it doesn't get even that hot when running continuously on high. Now, the die temperature is higher than the surface temperature, but even with only very conservative values for the thermal resistances of the junctions, the die temp is well within limits. And another way to tell this is to look at the lumens output over time. If the die temperature gets too hot, lumens output falls off. So if you see an output graph of a light which starts high and drops more or less linearly to a constant output level until battery depletion, you are seeing the effect of a rising die temperature, rising too high. I remember seeing this on one of the Arc lights. The Arc4 prototype, IIRC, on high. this_is_nascar commented on it, and Gransee told him that if he just held onto the light the entire time, the output would not drop off. TIN doubted it, tried it, and sure enough, Peter was right. Anyway the point is that if you do not see any kind of output drop off in a current regulated LED light tested while just sitting in open air, then the thermal design is more than adequate to the demands placed upon it.

Here is the output graph of the LS20 on high:

LunaSol20-High-RunTime.jpg


As you can see, there is almost zero drop off.

So, we can argue about numbers and theories and yield strength all day long, but ultimately, the practical results and tests speak for themselves: Titanium has good enough thermal characteristics to be used in the body of an LED light.

Period.

Should it be used? Is it the best choice in all situations? Is it for you? These are questions only you can answer. Your money, your choice. But, let's please stop saying or implying that Titanium is unsuitable because it doesn't conduct heat well enough or doesn't have a low enough electrical resistance. It handles both current and heat just fine, thank you very much!
 
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js

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Yes, but we are talking about "strength", which is entirely separate from the modulus of elasticity. I never said it was "just about strength", I said that "strength was strength" and there are only two typical values of comparison, yield and ultimate. If you want to get picky, you can expand that to 6 to cover tensile, compressive, and shear values of yield and ultimate.

But I don't want to get picky, Marduke. I wanted to broaden the discussion, not narrow it to only those who have taken strength of materials in their mechanical engineering college. My point was just that comparing HY100 steel to 6-4 Ti isn't just about the yield strength. No one in their right minds would make a light out of HY100, for example, nor any of the other super high yield strength steel alloys. It doesn't matter what the yield strength is, as long as it is strong enough for our uses, and even just pure Titanium is plenty strong enough for a flashlight.

The issue is about the material as a whole, considering all its characteristics, and how suitable it is to the task at hand. And Titanium is awesome as a flashlight material. Awesome. Granted, it's really only appropriate to "high end" lights, given the added cost, but still . . . overall, it is, in my opinion, better than HA and chemkoted Aluminum. Of course, I am a bit *ahem* off the beaten path, I admit. (As are most of us here, I think).
 

McGizmo

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So why does everyone love titanium? .....

Back to the OP, why do I love Ti?

It's real simple. Ti is the most low maintenance and dependable metal I can use for a flashlight. Its longevity will insure that I will be the one to fall out of love or need before it becomes compromised or no longer able to function for me. I can use and abuse a Ti light hard and put it to bed wet. It may show it over time but then so do I! :nana: Titanium is a noble metal on the galvanic scale and further, I am a stickler for all exposed metal to be of the same to insure galvanic corrosion is impeded anyway.

Ti is a fast healing metal and in no time, even after some abrasion, it will sport a protective oxide film. HAIII is a great and durable film on Al but it does not heal or replenish itself; leaving the raw AL to grow a soft oxide. The oxide film on Ti is electrically conductive. The oxide film on Al is not. I recall in one of these "Why Ti and it's just hype" threads a number of years back where I went into my shop and grabbed a stick of Al off the shelf as well as a stick of Ti from the shelf. I used an ohm meter to measure the resistance of I think it was 2' in length. Without scratching the surface of either metal, the Ti had a measureable but low resistance whereas the Al read as an open circuit until I scratched the meter probes through the oxidized surface. As I recall Ti was getting a beating for having a higher electrical resistance than Al.

I just read DM51's thread on his dive light which I didn't comment in but it is a great example of what happens with active galvanic corrosion; especially when the electrical path itself is exposed to sea water. Here was an AL light that had such heavy corrosion taking place that it wouldn't function when dry. It needed the saltwater to bridge the electrical path through the oxide on the bare Al. At least this is how I read the situation.

For most people, this is not an issue. For me, it is. My toys and tools have to survive in the playground I play in.

In terms of appearance and esthetics, I prefer bare skin and Ti can achieve a great "tan" and hold it well. It looks good and feels good naked! One of these days, I would like to see if I can get a 6-4 light heat treated. The surface hardness can be improved with the treatment and the color you end up with is one that many try to emulate and it has even been given a name; titanium. Even without controlled color anodizing of Ti, I think the interference of light bounding off the surface of the oxide as well as off the substrate does something with the color and hue of Ti that is subtle but still perceived.
 
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