1164 v 5761, your thoughts?

[^^Nova^^]

Hi All,

I am looking into building a regulated mag and have decided something around 1200-1400 lumens will be the most useful with a decent runtime. I have been going through Lux's destructive tests, and the 5761 and 1164 seem to be two really good choices. They are both bright enough and both draw about 40W at around 1300 lumens.

The pro's and con's as I see are, 1164 more expensive but has a lower low which would be useful (with the dimming available if I use AlanB's sled), however the 5761 is cheaper and should stay regulated the whole time, the 1164 may run DD towards the end on 3x LiMn.

So, pretty much 50/50 for either bulb. What I cannot find out is what the beams are like on both of these bulbs. What shape/colour they produce. Can anyone who has used these please comment on what they like/dislike on either of these bulbs? Then maybe I can decide which way to jump.

Also any other alternatives I may have missed would be useful.

Cheers,
Nova

 

[Starlight]

At the lumen levels that you want, the 5761 draws about 2 amps less than the 1164. This will be easier on the batteries, in the long run. It should also give a flatter discharge curve, which would mean more time in regulation. The color temp of the 1164 will be about 3500 versus 3400 with the 5761. Both are very white and I doubt you can see any difference between those temps. I can't help you with beam size or shape.

 

[Patriot]

I thought the 1164 draws less current than the 5761 by about 1.5A :thinking:


For me, choosing between these two would depend a lot upon which battery type and configuration I was going to use. That said, I'm partial to the 1164 and would lend itself well to a regulated set-up.

 

[Alan B]

I'm about to find out. I have a regulated WA1164 8xAA setup (that I really like) and I am about to build up a 5761 2x Lion D setup. I'll probably sell the WA1164 if the 5761 works as well as I expect it to.

Looking at the bulbs, the 5761 filament is smaller, so should focus better. The WA1164 does have a cleaner bulb envelope in the forward direction, as the 5761 has been evacuated through the top, and the WA through the bottom near the pins. So that bit of glass may cause some artifacts in the spill near the hotspot. The WA patterns are clean and determined by the reflector. I use FM or KD MOP reflectors.

I don't know why the 1164 is so expensive. It is nearly identical to the 1185 which is lower cost. Must be volume. The cost of the bulb is probably not much of a factor because with the regulator's soft start and variable output the actual life of the bulb will be fairly long.

For me the 5761's lower voltage requirements are really useful as it allows me to use a standard 2D body. With 2x KD D LiIons it will have essentially one hour of runtime on high. The current level, while somewhat higher than the 1164, is no problem for the regulator or the batteries. The WA1164 requires a bit more voltage, so must either bore for 8xAA or go to 3 LiIon cells. It is hard to beat the size and energy in 2 D LiIon cells in a 2D M@g. They are about 4.8 AH so over 30 watt hours.

I don't understand the "1164 has lower low" as the regulator can be set to any voltage and make whatever level you want. Either bulb can be taken as low as is useful.

At least that's my understanding thus far. Until it is tested there is always some uncertainty.

I have all the parts to put it together and may do so this weekend. I have a few other things on the todo list so hard to be certain. I also need to finish the 6D Mag623. Now that lights up a room...:twothumbs

 

[Starlight]

Patriot, my bad! I was in a hurry and looked at the volt column instead of the amp column.

 

[Patriot]

Np Starlight. I was just going from memory so wasn't positive myself.



AlanB, it will be nice to hear your thoughts once you have each light in your hands.


I suppose that generally speaking the 5761 allows for light with more lumens for its size. This of course is the opposite direction from run-time though, which the OP was most interested in.

 

[Alan B]

Today I fixed my 6D M@g623 and didn't get to the 5761. I made some battery sleeves for the A123M1's that center and safely make contact with the short flat button. Those are cells one does not want to short...

In my case both the WA1164 and 5761 are 2D, so the 8xAA has about 20 watt hours and the 2D KD LiIon will have about 30 watt hours. The bulb power levels are about the same, so the D LiIons will have a lot more runtime.

I will probably get to the 5761 tomorrow if some other priority doesn't pop up. I have to assemble and program the regulator before I can build the light.

 

[fivemega]

If longer run time is required, 6S/2P AA (12AA) in quad bored 3D will work for regulated 5761
Beam shape is production of filament shape and reflector shape/size/texture.
You may get hundreds of different results by changing each factor.

 

[Alan B]

The SN004DropIn PHD Sled driving the 5761 Lives :thumbsup:

I am running it on my DropIn programmable hotwire regulator/driver with 2 D size LiIons from KD and the shorty gold spring from KD. Cells are unprotected 5.0AH (actually about 4.8) 3.7V/4.2V fully charged.

First I didn't realize the 5761 is a larger diameter and won't fit in the FM reflector's hole. Ruined one bulb finding that out. So I had to bore out a KD gen 3 reflector to take the bulb, about 1/2mm over the usual 8.38 size.

So now I've got a WA1164 running on 8xAA, and the 5761 on two D LiIons, both regulated. The WA1164 is in a FM reflector, the 5761 in KD Gen 3.

The light output of the 5761 is slightly more than the 1164 at the voltages I'm running. The difference is very small and might even be less if the 8xAA NiMH were hot of the charger as we're running close to direct drive on the 1164 at full intensity. 3x LiIon would have a little more headroom for the regulator. So I would not claim any important difference in output levels.

The beam patterns are different. We know that the reflector is a major part of this. The FM reflector with the WA1164 has more throw, the hotspot has a gradient and the center is brighter than the edges of the hotspot. The 5761 / KD Gen 3 hotspot is more even and a bit larger. They are both very nice beam patterns. Sorry I don't have identical reflectors that I can use on them (only have one KD reflector, FM's won't fit). I may bore out a FM reflector later but not now.

The color temperature of the light is pretty close. Hard to call.

All in all, they are very close. I'm happy with the 5761 for the voltage compatibility and bulb cost.

 

[^^Nova^^]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I think I am leaning toward the 5761, slightly cheaper bulb and slightly brighter.

Alan, what voltages are you running the 2 bulbs? I will be building my light around a 2.5D mag running 3 of AW's 26500 batteries. Should give me a fair bit of freedom with voltage choice. Maybe I need to look into the KD "D" LiIon batteries though, the bigger capacity is appealing.

Cheers,
Nova

 

[Alan B]

Without looking at the sourcecode I believe it is 9.6 and 7.2 for the 1164 and 5761, respectively.

 

[LuxLuthor]

If longer run time is required, 6S/2P AA (12AA) in quad bored 3D will work for regulated 5761
Beam shape is production of filament shape and reflector shape/size/texture.
You may get hundreds of different results by changing each factor.

Bingo! Without regulation, often times our choices were made based upon best direct drive...getting as close to optimum output by dancing on the razor's edge of flashing. Soft start protection (AW's model) helped a lot, but once you use a regulated incan adjusted for ideal output, there is no comparison.

What FM says is understated. I would go so far as to say that there is "The Ideal Reflector" for a given bulb, purpose, taste. Once you have your "best" reflector for each of these bulbs, and set the regulation at the best voltage output for each bulb, you can get an optimal comparison.

There are those who are unable to tolerate any bulb artifact, so they need a more textured flood beam reflector. Others want the farthest throwing hotspot, so SMO is their setup. I guarantee that I could take either of these bulbs and use different sizes, shapes, textures of reflectors + bulb position + voltage regulation that would make the same bulb look radically different.

After using 25-30 different types of reflectors in all shapes, sizes, coating, I can pick out the best setup to optimize a given bulb.

 

[^^Nova^^]

Does anyone know if a 5761 will fit inside a mag tailcap? I want to have a backup bulb and need to find an alternative if I can't carry a spare 5761 in the mag.

Cheers,
Nova

 

[LuxLuthor]

Yes.

 

[JimmyM]

For quite a while the Osram 64275 was my favorite light. But after I looked at Lux's tests I think the 5761 is the better bulb. It draws less amps than the 64275. I have no experience with the 1164, but I have 1 64275 based light (2xD-LiIon) and a 5761 based (3xD-LiIon). Both using my PWM regulator.

For the 2D and 3D form factor, the 1164 and 5761 are both great choices. It's going to be up to you to decide what you want the beam to look like.

 

[Patriot]

I have no experience with the 1164, but I have 1 64275 based light (2xD-LiIon) and a 5761 based (3xD-LiIon). Both using my PWM regulator.

It still looks funny to see 5761 in the same sentence with 3xD-Li-ion but with regulation all the rules change. Sure is cool!

 

[My3kidsfather]

LuxLuthor- I was looking at the 5761 bulb in your picture (you are obviously handy with a camera) and noticed the sprig of glass on top of the bulb. Probably from construction of the glass. Glass can be carefully ground.. would there be any advantage to grinding off the sprig for a smoother top? In focus or beam pattern possibly even brightness improvements? What do you think?

Yes.

 

[LuxLuthor]

It's a decent thought. I think part of the concern would be introducing a weak point where you sanded. I don't know how high of pressure the halogen gas inside the bulb is under, but I would be concerned about creating a narrow point from sanding.

Also, most of the light is emanating in all directions from filament and into the reflector, so I don't think you would gain a huge improvement in output. This bulb's filament is small enough so you don't have many beam artifacts which would be the only other reason to consider working on the tip.

 

[lctorana]

I say don't do it.

1) The vast majority of light from incan torches is via the reflector, almost none comes directly out the front of the bulb. Think of the spherical area sector subtended by the exhaust tip, and it amounts to two-tenths of &%**~#! all.

2) Following on from that point, you'll notice that in many incan torches, and some PAR36 spot beam lamps, there is a black or silver cap in the centre of the glass or lens, masking direct light from the bulb. This doesn't seem to affect the beam, so if the front of the bulb has an obscurity, then that shouldn't hurt the beam to any noticeable degree.

3) The exhaust tip should not be at the focal point of the reflector - the filament ought to be.

But the MAIN reason:

4) The "sprig of glass" is the exhaust tip, that was, during manufacture, connected to the vacuum pump and the gas supply. It is hollow for some of its length. Shortening the exhaust tip could introduce a tiny, slow leak, as the fill gas diffuses out and oxygen diffuses in.

Just my 2c.

(Incidentally, and for OT interest's sake, there is one major area where it is a GOOD idea to shorten the exhaust tip. This is for radio valves whose top cap has come off. In that case, filing away the glass to get at the stump lead before resoldering fresh wire is the only expedient available to restore an otherwise serviceable, irreplaceable valve.)

 

[My3kidsfather]

Good points guys. I had not thought of the fact the tip of the bulb does not pass any light to the reflector, and may have a hollow tube in it. Probably best left alone.