60 Minutes II - Abused Iraqi Prisoners

[Greymage]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:

Obviously, you don't know all the facts on this and you have no idea of the culture of countries like Rwanda. ...
Remember Somalia? Remember the tribes running around trying to wipe each other out? Remember the warlord, Muhammad Farah Aidid? These countries have existed in this kind of tribal culture for more years than this country has even been in existance. This is something that we do not comprehend. Likewise, they do not comprehend why they can't go around warring with each other and trying to gain superiority over the other tribes. When told to stop warring with the other tribes, they simply look at us and ask, "Why?"... as they should... they have been warring with each other all their lives and have passed these cultural "practices" down through the generations....

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I was going to let the above go, but after seeing these comments:

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Or maybe it's something completely different... maybe it's the human instinct to survive. In which case, I would definately label that Evolving. Here's a thought along those lines... let's take the Rwandans. Their culture has survived how many centuries? If it didn't work, they'd be "extinct" (for lack of a better term). Our culture looks at it as genocide... they look at it as survival of the fittest. And the fittest have survived. Thrived? that's another issue... but again depends on definition. Our culture labels these "recent conflicts and injustices around the world" as "wrong" but perhaps it's not... perhaps it's just the basic human instinct. Again... I dunno...

I do feel that our culture and those like ours around the world are very arrogant and narrow-minded in their ways of thinking that any culture that is not like ours is just flat out wrong and that it is our duty to "show them the way". I'm not preaching tolerance here... or even acceptance... I'm suggesting understanding. In many ways, I think that we've learned this just a little bit more with this situation in Iraq. The Rwandans didn't want our help. The Somalis didn't want our help. The Iraqis do.


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I can't resist.

Let's take it from the bottom:
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The Rwandans didn't want our help. The Somalis didn't want our help. The Iraqis do.

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Which Rwandans didn't want our help? Maybe the killers didn't... I'm pretty sure the victims wouldn't have minded. The Somalis didn't? Of course, the warlords didn't, why would they want to give up their powers? The Iraqis do? Well, probably the Shiites and Kurds did at one point... I'm guessing though that many of the people in Falluja don't.

As far as your lumping Rwanda and Somalia together, and talking about [ QUOTE ]
These countries have existed in this kind of tribal culture for more years than this country has even been in existance.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, yes, there have been tribes and tribal identity in Africa for generations. You neglected to mention, though, the impact of European colonial policies on Africa. The Hutu/Tutsi relationship was exacerbated by the Belgians, who issued distinct identity cards for each tribe (when previously membership had been somewhat fluid) and gave preference to Tutsis. The area that became Somalia was colonized by multiple countries, and emerged from a conglomerization of Italian and British colonies with no real linkage between the two.

To claim that "they have been warring with each other all their lives" while ignoring the historical influence of the European colonizers is at best naive and at worst racist. Many of the problems in that area of the world are due either directly (e.g. the creation of Israel as a state) or indirectly (e.g. by people buying conflict diamonds) by the developed countries.

I won't even touch your comment about the Rwandans viewing the genocide that occurred as "survival of the fittest".

 

[Greymage]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

[ QUOTE ]
Nitro said:
One country at a time.

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Ah, Pax Americana then?

I don't see it happening. I see Iraq as the leftovers from GW's dad's government finishing what they started.

 

[Greta]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Greymage... I'll again state that it's obvious that you've never actually been to these countries and your 'OPINIONS' as to how they viewed our presence is just that... an opinion.. and a very skewed one at that. Why not sit down and talk to someone who has actually been to these countries and seen firsthand what they thought of us? Yes, both the killers AND the victims ... OH! Did I mention that I've actually done that? Sorry if I left that out. Did you actually think that I was just talking out my *** with no basis whatsoever except my opinion? ... Sorry again... I don't do that.

The historical influence of European colonizers? Um... why are we now responsible for that? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif ... and their influence couldn't have been all that great if these tribes still continue to duke it out. Also... please refer to my post again for the number of times I wrote, "I dunno"... and again I'll theorize that if their way wasn't working, they'd be extinct... they continue to live in their tribal communities and fight their tribal wars despite the supposed influence of more "civilized" countries... I'm reminded of an old Sam Kinnisen stand up routine... "You live in a *$&(#& desert!!! See this? This is (#@*&%*&% sand!!! You can't grow *&^*&^ in (**&^*&( sand!!! You want to survive? (*&%#&*%*( MOVE!!! You live in a )(*$&*& desert!!! You want to )**(&(*& live???? Then stop *%^*&^%$(* killing each other!!!" Does anyone else remember that one? It was hysterical coming from Sam and the way he yelled everything... but the truth of it was very sobering. These people refuse to change their cultures... and until they do, no one can "help" them. They didn't want to stop killing each other when we tried to get them to... that's about as clear a refusal of help as I've ever seen.

 

[Unicorn]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

If anything we have done a disservice to the Middle East by becoming so oil thirsty. This gave them lots of money in a short time and with no real idea how to adapt. Too many changes too quickly. My company (battery actually but as that's temporary I don't accept it) is in a kickass "village" because 30 years ago the bedouins it my made for didn't want to give up their tents and living with their animals. It sat almost unused until the first Gulf War when the US starteed housing troops in the villas (AC, big rooms, better than my apartment at home actually.) Saudi is going to have problems very soon with money. The population is growing the amount of income isn't keeping up, and the population is going to actually have to wrok for it's pay. It used to be that the relatives of the princes didn't even have to think about working, now they are given BS government jobs and have to at least show up. Westerners have the higher tech, and skilled jobs, other "third world" countries citizens like Pakistan, India, the Phillipines (especially), and more have the skilled labor jobs. Some that Saudis think is beneath them, some that almost no one in Saudi is trained to do. Not too many pipline techs for an oil producing nation. Kuwait isn't in the same situation, yet. They still have a lot of money to go around, and they don't have the 500 or so princes like Saudi does. Iraq has even more of the tribal stuff going on. The borders of "Iraq" are almost totally false anyway. Yes it is a lot of the fault of European countries, mostly the UK in the early to mid 20th century. Now the Kurds want their own country (rightfully so IMO), but there is no way that Turkey will accept a Kurdistan. They don't want to lose any of their territory. Turkey, Iran (Persia), Saudi Arabia, and Egypt, have the most identity as coutries IIRC sinc at least some of the areas within their borders were there for some time.
Most of the Middle East hates us for whatevr reason. Many feel that we are taking away their cultural identity. Just the simple things to us has caused problems for some places. Telivisions, a simple t.v. was a pain for the House of Saud to get into Saudi. They had to come up with some concessions for the more reactionary. Saudi has one of the strictest types of religious law. The Muslim denomination there is Wahabi, very strict. Kuwait is less so, and Iraq seems almost secular in comparison. Even Iran is less strict, but then again they also have a different branch of Islam.

And Sasha, I'm surprised that you didn't mention that we are the result of those meddling European conlonisers. We were a colony at one time I thought. As you said, they want to remain in their tribal groups. Fine, it's their country, and IMO we should just cut them lose. As soon as we can find an alternative to oil, let them do what they want.
Maybe we should have gone to war with the UK or France to stop their meddling in Middle Eastern affairs?

 

[ikendu]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Unicorn said: ...As soon as we can find an alternative to oil, let them do what they want.

Gee, what a straight line! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

We already DO have an alternative to oil.

I'm running my VW Golf TDI on American grown and processed soy based biodiesel right this very minute. Last year, I cut my usage of petroleum by 75% while traveling the same miles. Since we only import about 60% of our oil...I guess at least for me...I've got my alternative to imported oil right now.

Freedom from imported oil is the freedom to choose. That's good.

Back on topic...

It turns out that the military investigated this itself and published a 53 page internal report in February, 2004. Here is something to consider.

Wouldn't it have been better if our military itself released this story? It wasn't going to stay untold. Too many people knew about it. Wouldn't it have been better if we got the chance to position this story ourselves instead of waiting to see how CBS would write it? Now it looks like our military was hoping it would never come out (seems very unlikely about that!). Our own people could have expressed our collective outrage about what happened and already have been well on the way to punishing those responsible.

Now it looks like we are just reacting to the story being made public.

On tonight's news, members of the Senate Armed Services committee were briefed by Donald Rumsfeld on other matters on the very day that they knew the story would be shown by CBS and he said nothing to the senators (BTW...they appear to be quite upset about that). Further, both Donald Rumsfeld and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have said that so far...they have not even read the whole report (Hmmm...out in Feb...now it is May). What is up with that? No time to read a 53 page report on an issue that will damage months of careful work to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis?

 

[Empath]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Things aren't looking good here. More and more this is appearing as a sanctioned ongoing procedure, and one that transcends any political ideological differences between us, although it will be difficult for some of us to realize it.

This isn't about our service men and women. This is about leaders, and a sanctioning, turning a deaf ear, and their expectation of certain activities in order to realize their purpose. The purpose may be noble, but the process is disgraceful and criminal. It will be interesting, but disappointing, to see how well those in positions of power can pass the buck and attempt to shift all blame to the lowest level possible.

Personally, I'm very ignorant of such things, and have to listen to so called experts. It would be easier to remain ignorant, but my "feelings" keep pushing me where I'd rather not be.

Who was the hooded man anyway?

 

[ikendu]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Yes. Over the weekend, there was a lot of discussion of the "Geneva conventions". Rumsfeld had said that it didn't apply to Al Queada. Although, it was also said that since the Senate had ratified the "Geneva conventions", that they are the law of the land in the U.S.

So...how can the Secretary of Defense make a decision that "they don't apply"?

Plus...when you pick up a whole lot of people in some sweep of personnel, how do you know which of these people are Al Queada (even if we should treat Al Queada differently) and which are just civilians picked up in the sweep? Some of these prisoners have since been released and were never charged with anything.

Our Senate adopted the "Geneva conventions" to protect our own soldiers during war. If we pick and choose when they will be followed...do we lose the protection for our own people in some other conflict?

 

[fivebyfive]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

I can't believe what I continue to see on TV. More photos are being released and each one worser than the last. I don't think we could ever make it right to the Iraqi people after these incidents of abuse/torture. SOme things people will never ever forget, no matter how it's presented or how many apologies you make. http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

 

[Greta]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

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I don't think we could ever make it right to the Iraqi people after these incidents of abuse/torture.

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Hmmm... I wonder if they are thinking the same thing regarding what they did to some of our guys a few weeks back... think maybe they are? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

 

[ikendu]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Sasha said:...wonder if they are thinking the same thing regarding what they did to some of our guys a few weeks back

Well, it's clear that someone very much abused our folks that were torched and hung on a bridge. And...I'm sure if we had those people in custody, and we were sure we had just the right people, no one would object to HOW they were handled.

The problem is that "they" is too broad a brush with which to paint the Iraqi people. We saw maybe a few hundreds abusing our people but that town has how many inhabitants (1000's?)? Our TV reported that many Iraqis were embarrased and ashamed at how our people were treated (very non-Islamic treatment as I saw it reported).

This is part of the hard part of occupying someone else's city. How do you separate the normal, decent inhabitants from the few that are killing and burning our people? If we end up treating "them" all the same, we will just create more terrorists at a very fast rate. Faster than we can keep up?

Over a year ago before we invaded, at least one article painted the invasion of Iraq as "a cake walk". As we see, there are a lot of difficult issues to deal with after "major combat" that go way beyond who has the better tanks or air superiority.

 

[chalo]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

[ QUOTE ]
Sasha said:
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think we could ever make it right to the Iraqi people after these incidents of abuse/torture.

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Hmmm... I wonder if they are thinking the same thing regarding what they did to some of our guys a few weeks back... think maybe they are? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

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You mean those four U.S. mercenaries-- literally killers for profit-- who met an ugly end at the hands of a mob? I find it hard to see how they didn't get what they were asking for.

It's one thing to defend one's country against enemy invaders, which is what the Iraqis are doing. It's another to follow orders to be an aggressive invader in a foreign land, which is what our sevicemen are doing. But it is yet another and entirely inexcusable thing to freely choose to be a hired gun in a foreign land for $1000 a day, which is what those goons were doing in Falluja when they were killed.

Chalo Colina

 

[ikendu]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Sorry, Chalo... although I have my concerns about the extent to which we are using private contractors in Iraq, I'm not prepared to accept them being described as "hired guns" and "they get what they deserve". While it is true they are carrying a gun...and for hire, I'm sure many of those contractors also feel that battle is worth fighting and that they are helping the U.S. (just like our troops).

I will agree that many Iraqis see their resistance as fighting a foreign invader, just as many Americans would if their roles were reversed.

 

[Unicorn]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

Ikendu,
You'r absolutely right about bio-diesel. That and ethanol could be used almost immediately and cut our reliance on oil imports. Hell, I asked my wife last month to start looking for a used Volvo diesel for me for when I get back. I think that what I meant is as soon as we can convince ourselves to use an alternative. I'm thinking either bio-diesel or an alcohol for fuel, and solar panels on every home, plus hydro, and wind.

The contractors are not really mercenaries. Some are doing a similar job as the military under contract to the military. In Bosnia they are acting as peacekeepers. Other contractors are just bodyguards, or security forces. Some are training their military and police forces. Does a person going over to train their police forces because he was an ex SWAT cop, mean that he deserves to die?

 

[jayflash]

Re: 60 Minutes II - abused prisoners

The International Red Cross began investigating Iraq prison abuses last October so this, indeed, appears to be policy driven.

I hope our treatment of POW's, in Iraq, was not done with the intent to inflame the Iraqis and, thereby, prolong the war. There are several indications that a protracted conflict was Bush's intent. I hope that isn't true, but one has the right to wonder, given the numerous "blunders."