A new take on reverse clickies as "tactical" - Might make you think..

[Search]

As some people know, I'm a Reserve here in my home town waiting to get hired on. The government owns a massive amount of land just outside of town that contracts jobs out to two contractors to make mortar rounds, 40mm rounds, and flares for aircrafts. They have set up an assault training facility for the Army to train in. Luckily for us, they allow us to train there when we want, given no one wanders off into top secret stuff. Hence massive mounds where the bombs are stored. Oh yea, I'm not sure if C4 is still manufactured but it is stored. Who cares really, the point of all this..

I lent my 6PL to a new guy and used my PD30. Now a few things I have to mention:

We used special Glocks that only chamber Simunition rounds. It's a brass jacket with a plastic piece that holds paint. Hurts like ****. It's enough motivation to not get shot. It's already expensive so don't count on weapon lights.

Even though I would like to mention what we got to do, no one cares. So something that I would like to point out.

We trained on a couple of different scenarios that relied on me having my light on almost constantly. One however, relied on me not getting shot.

We had a massive two story building with many rooms at the end. We grouped into 4 man teams. Then we cleared the building in a stack formation (in a line). The guy in the front being the only one with a light on so no one gets silhoutted and shot. We were told to kill everyone inside. I know, I know, this isn't going to happen in real life but hang on.. They did shoot at us and at that point it did not matter.

Being the second guy, I only used my light twice until we got to the middle, I had to clear on side of the room as he took off to clear the other.

When we made it to the middle ish, we had contact from a door. One guy hit the wall next to it and started cuting the pie (SLOWLY moving from one side to the other and looking in little by little). We noticed a stair case on the same wall. Had anyone from upstairs looked down, he was dead. Or simulated dead. Me and the front man went up alone. Cleared it with me still being in the back.

Ah the good part. When we got back downstairs our guy had shot the guy in the room so I took off into it as the front man. With my PD30 I clicked it on and cleared it. From there I stayed in the front and being the only guy with a light on, I have to say it was very very easy.

If you've never been shot by a sim gun in 20 degree weather I can't explain how bad it hurts. Some think it's worse that a paintball gun. It's motivation to not get shot, but if not, you have to run and run and run if you get shot. That should help you.

I turned the light on, and when I didn't want anyone ahead of me to know I was fixing to come around a corner, I just held the clickie down. It was very very simple to operate and in my opinion I could argue it might be tied with yalls version of a tactical light.

When you see a threat you just let go of the clickie and never have to worry. When you are just trying to not let them know you're fixing to come around a corner, you just press it.

From my experience in many tactical training excercises, I really don't think it's fair to say reverse clickies have no business there. It was flawless for me. I think it's kind of dumb for something to be labeled tactical or not by people who haven't even tried it as tactical.

I could relate this to situations for civilians without trouble.

My point is, from training with SWAT and running SWAT and tactical drills that every LEO has to do, I am claiming lights like the PD30 can be tactical and are tactical. Nice to have a strobe, they can't shoot what is strobing and moving very fast.

It's obvious I'm bored and that's why this is so long. So, if you've read this far, I'll send you some money on pay pal for being as bored as I am.

 

[Th232]

So, if you've read this far, I'll send you some money on pay pal for being as bored as I am.

Lol, I'll take the offer!

Nah, seriously though, that situation's one I haven't heard of before, thanks for sharing it!

On a bit more thought, it's interesting to think about the differences between reverse and forward clicky and how much time you expect the light to be on rather than off for a given task. Definitely going to give this more thought.

 

[Oddjob]

Sending you a PM with my Paypal address...JK. Good story.

 

[Solscud007]

Hey sounds like what ever works for you. I dont train with LEO or anything tactical but I have been playing mil-sim airsoft since 98 with some ex-military guys and some crazy weekend warriors haha.

My experiece with tactical lights are that majority of people use them as a crutch. they rely on them way too much to see in the dark. and just as you described, people can see where you are and if you are coming. before my addiction to surefire, I did not use lights. ever.

now I use surefire and they have given me an advantage in my game that is almost like cheating haha.

the M6 with mn21 bulb is so powerful in teh dark and night games that literally opponents will turn away at the light or just give up. the strobe of my gladius is extremely effective at disorientation that is shoul dbe banned. but like the real thing, those with the better toys wins.

 

[GreySave]

As I have always said, it is individual need that determines whether a light is worth it to own. The same is certainly true of "tactical" situations. Your method certainly worked for you and makes good sense.

 

[baterija]

Someone once told me the 3 rules of tank maintenance:
- Use a hammer
- Use a bigger hammer
- Use a wrench...as a hammer

Is the wrench the best tool when hammering needs done? Of course not. I laughed very hard when told that though because I had used, and seen used, a less than ideal tool do the job to good effect.

I think the reverse clicky is the wrench being used as a hammer. Compared to no light it can be functional. It's got it's weaknesses though:
- If you drop the light it's ON at your feet.
- It requires fine motor skills to keep the switch part way depressed to maintain off.
- If you tense up and perform the natural squeezing action that follows you turn your light off. When things go bad your bodies reaction is to make you less likely to clearly see the threat.

I'm not going to choose a reverse clicky to clear a room if I can reasonably choose the right "hammer" for the job. In fact I stay far away from them to avoid muscle memory that's opposite from my other lights. It's still interesting to read your story of making it work. Plenty of tunnels in Vietnam got cleared by troops carrying a Fulton anglehead light. I doubt many of us would call that an ideal tactical light either.

A room cleared now with a reverse clicky beats one not cleared while someone is still screwing around with lights. The best is the enemy of the good enough. :thumbsup:

 

[greenlight]

Except for the 'click' that gives you away.

 

[Zatoichi]

I discovered a reverse clicky can be used that way, but I have to agree with this...

- It requires fine motor skills to keep the switch part way depressed to maintain off.

In a dangerous situation it wouldn't be my first choice.

 

[65535]

I think any light that "clicks" isn't great as tactical, you click your light around a quiet corner, you're finished. That's why twisties are popular. Still though clickies are easier. Just need quiet switches.

 

[StandardBattery]

Someone once told me the 3 rules of tank maintenance:
- Use a hammer
- Use a bigger hammer
- Use a wrench...as a hammer

Is the wrench the best tool when hammering needs done? Of course not. I laughed very hard when told that though because I had used, and seen used, a less than ideal tool do the job to good effect.

I think the reverse clicky is the wrench being used as a hammer. Compared to no light it can be functional. It's got it's weaknesses though:
- If you drop the light it's ON at your feet.
- It requires fine motor skills to keep the switch part way depressed to maintain off.
- If you tense up and perform the natural squeezing action that follows you turn your light off. When things go bad your bodies reaction is to make you less likely to clearly see the threat.

I'm not going to choose a reverse clicky to clear a room if I can reasonably choose the right "hammer" for the job. In fact I stay far away from them to avoid muscle memory that's opposite from my other lights. It's still interesting to read your story of making it work. Plenty of tunnels in Vietnam got cleared by troops carrying a Fulton anglehead light. I doubt many of us would call that an ideal tactical light either.

A room cleared now with a reverse clicky beats one not cleared while someone is still screwing around with lights. The best is the enemy of the good enough. :thumbsup:

+1

If you had got shot, you would have put everyone in danger because your light would be on the ground lighting things up. If the guy behind you doesn't get it, it might make it impossible to make any further progress by that route.

I would have just opted to click it off. I suspect your movements make more noise than the average clicky, and the clicky sound can be muffled with your hands.

I won't say the reverse-clicky is or isn't 'tactical', but I just don't think your story really tips the scales in either direction, I'm sure that Jello has been deployed in a tactical situation. Like the poster above says, it's a question of the best tool for the job, lights are useful in tactical situations for many purpose, the best tool depends on the details of the situation. Sometimes it's just imperative you read a map.

 

[Search]

Well think about this. You don't need motor skills to keep it pressed down. It's a simple simple operation. When you have the light off, in a tactical situation, it's because nothing is happening. You are trained to think straight and clearly and breathe.

I'm just saying, I kept mine off and never thought about it. You don't completely loose all train of thought. You are stressed, but it's not as bad as you guys make it out to be.

I do agree with what you said about dropping it though. Good point.

However, before I walked in I turned it on. I just held it down to keep it momentary off. There was no click on my part.

Oh.. I would like to point out. I've never seen a light that clicked so loud it could be heard over peoples feet.

In video games you are quiet, in these situations, you rely on total darkness and the other guy not being able to pin point you based on your feet. When we come into the open, we blast into the open. They hear you. The sound of clickies isn't a concern unless you're hiding in a closet from a guy. Then why even have a flashlight on.

I'm going to go with the whole, to each his own.

I am looking for another light to use in these situations, but if I had to use my PD30.. I would never worry or think twice.

It was simple and I just think reverse clickies deserve a little more respect. I didn't like them until tonight, but for me, I had my mentality and wasn't worried about using motor skills I had "allocated" to other tasks. I have a lot I guess

 

[foxtrot29]

Someone once told me the 3 rules of tank maintenance:
- Use a hammer
- Use a bigger hammer
- Use a wrench...as a hammer

Is the wrench the best tool when hammering needs done? Of course not. I laughed very hard when told that though because I had used, and seen used, a less than ideal tool do the job to good effect.

I think the reverse clicky is the wrench being used as a hammer. Compared to no light it can be functional. It's got it's weaknesses though:
- If you drop the light it's ON at your feet.
- It requires fine motor skills to keep the switch part way depressed to maintain off.
- If you tense up and perform the natural squeezing action that follows you turn your light off. When things go bad your bodies reaction is to make you less likely to clearly see the threat.

I'm not going to choose a reverse clicky to clear a room if I can reasonably choose the right "hammer" for the job. In fact I stay far away from them to avoid muscle memory that's opposite from my other lights. It's still interesting to read your story of making it work. Plenty of tunnels in Vietnam got cleared by troops carrying a Fulton anglehead light. I doubt many of us would call that an ideal tactical light either.

A room cleared now with a reverse clicky beats one not cleared while someone is still screwing around with lights. The best is the enemy of the good enough. :thumbsup:

You hit the nail right on the head with the issue of the fine motor skills. (ha!) Seriously though, the OP described a training session. When involved in an extreme stress scenario, you will lose most fine motor function. This is proven, there is no debate for it.

Reverse clickies suck.

 

[SUREFIRED]

Except for the 'click' that gives you away.

You can always click it on then unscrew the tailcap slightly, then it functions like a twisty (with momentary on a forward clicky).

 

[FLT MEDIC]

Any light can be used for force on force scenarious but some just have better features which may avoid your getting shot at.

Tried to make do with reverse clickies but it's tiring to keep it off and the click it makes sometimes gives off my location during night AirSoft games when sneaking up on the enemy. During the day it's not an issue because of traffic and other ambient daytime noise but not at night when people are sleeping already.

Nothing like the Gladius:

- no click
- no tailcap rubber boot to wear out
- no switch contacts to wear out
- consistent butter smooth switching it ON or changing modes.
- preset desired mode without switching it ON
- if the 80 lumens stock Gladius is too expensive, the Insight Typhoon H2X II clone has the same features at 120 or 170 lumens and costs around US$120, IIRC.

 

[Search]

You hit the nail right on the head with the issue of the fine motor skills. (ha!) Seriously though, the OP described a training session. When involved in an extreme stress scenario, you will lose most fine motor function. This is proven, there is no debate for it.

Reverse clickies suck.

I'm glad you have been there, done that.

Find me 1 member of any tactical team that would tell you reverse clickie have no business there?

I've convinced two to carry PD30s.. and they love it.

It's proven? I laughed. It pisses me off that people like you make claims about things which you don't know and there are people who would listen.

It's cool dude, but for the people who do this kind of stuff, it's an insult to say pressing a little button to hold the light off is too complicated for them.

Any light can be used for force on force scenarious but some just have better features which may avoid your getting shot at.

Tried to make do with reverse clickies but it's tiring to keep it off and the click it makes sometimes gives off my location during night AirSoft games when sneaking up on the enemy. During the day it's not an issue because of traffic and other ambient daytime noise but not at night when people are sleeping already.

Nothing like the Gladius:

- no click
- no tailcap rubber boot to wear out
- no switch contacts to wear out
- consistent butter smooth switching it ON or changing modes.
- preset desired mode without switching it ON
- if the 80 lumens stock Gladius is too expensive, the Insight Typhoon H2X II clone has the same features at 120 or 170 lumens and costs around US$120, IIRC.

Look.. if I could close this thread I would. It's getting out of hand.

Let me make this clear.

From my experiences and the experiences of all of those I train with (the ones who do it every day), reverse clickies are very very capable of being used in tactical situations.

The clicks do not matter. The lack of motor skills to operate it is a joke.

 

[deranged_coder]

It's proven? I laughed. It pisses me off that people like you make claims about things which you don't know and there are people who would listen.

It's cool dude, but for the people who do this kind of stuff, it's an insult to say pressing a little button to hold the light off is too complicated for them.
.
.
.
The clicks do not matter. The lack of motor skills to operate it is a joke.

I am not a tactical user but as far as whether or not it is proven about how high stress results in reduction of fine motor skills, I will refer you to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's article on Physiology of Close Combat:

The debilitating effects of combat stress have been recognized for centuries. Phenomenon such as tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, the loss of fine and complex motor control, irrational behavior, and the inability to think clearly have all been observed as byproducts of combat stress....
.
.
.
...high-level SNS activation occurs when combatants are confronted with an unanticipated deadly force threat and the time to respond is minimal. Under these conditions the extreme effects of the SNS will cause catastrophic failure of the visual, cognitive, and motor control systems....
.
.
.
In 1950, S.L.A. Marshall's The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation was one of the first studies to identify how combat performance deteriorates when soldiers are exposed to combat stress. Marshall concluded that we must reject the superstition that under danger men can be expected to have more than their normal powers, and that they will outdo their best efforts simply because their lives are in danger. Indeed, in many ways the reality is just the opposite, and individuals under stress are far less capable of doing anything other than blindly running from or charging toward a threat. Humans have three primary survival systems: vision, cognitive processing, and motor skill performance. Under stress, all three break down.

Again, I am not an expert (I have never been in a "tactical" situation in my life and I hope I never ever will be in one) but the person writing the above article certainly seems to be considered an expert on the subject.

I have no doubt about the fact that you and your companions have successfully used a reverse clicky in a tactical scenario. Kudos to you for being able to do that. I think the point is that while it can be used (and you and your companions have shown that), it is probably far from being the ideal switching mechanism to use for many reasons as cited already by others.

EDIT: Btw, were you and your companions wearing gloves when using the PD30? Just curious how easy it is to manage a reverse clicky in a tactical situation if you have gloves on. Also, did you encounter any issues with the light coming on in the wrong mode because of it?

 

[USM0083]

As Foxtrot29 says, during stressful situations, fine motor skills disappear.

I've done simunitions many times, and I'm fortunate to be able to conduct a lot of the firearms training for my agency. Last time out I had everyone try shooting their handgun while illuminating the target with their issued light.

Takes a lot of practice. I use a G2Z, and just picked up a Tomahawk ST, which I find ideal, since it has momentary, and a finger loop which allows you to still use your off hand to perform reloads and other manipulations.

I personally will not use a tactical light with a reverse clicky with a firearm.

If it works for you, that's fine. IMHO, once the SHTF things will go wrong.

Another thing, sims (and FATS) does not simulate the full recoil of real ammo. I teach to use momentary as much as possible, and actually shooting and trying to half press to switch on and off a reverse clicky is a receipe for failure.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[StandardBattery]

... it's because nothing is happening. ...

One Second nothing is happening... the next....

 

[Search]

Yes yes I said that I plan on buying another light for these things. An E2DL actually.

I just wanted to mention my success and others at using reverse clickies in these situations.

Yes, some people might fail with one. Others will not.

I know motor skills disappear, I'm just saying that operating a reverse clickie doesn't require enough motor skills to matter.

I just wanted it to be known that it's possible, and telling people to never use it is wrong.

It has it's benefits, we can all agree there. It also has its disadvantages.

I see and understand that. I would be comfortable in using a reverse clickie in these situations but would prefer to have a forward clickie.

I hope I have clarified.

I would just rather see, in the future, people saying things like "IMO a reverse clickie has it's benefits but it has its disadvantages. Here are examples: blah blah" instead of "no, never use them, they suck".

Hope that helps.

 

[foxtrot29]

I'm glad you have been there, done that.

Find me 1 member of any tactical team that would tell you reverse clickie have no business there?

I've convinced two to carry PD30s.. and they love it.

It's proven? I laughed. It pisses me off that people like you make claims about things which you don't know and there are people who would listen.

It's cool dude, but for the people who do this kind of stuff, it's an insult to say pressing a little button to hold the light off is too complicated for them.



Look.. if I could close this thread I would. It's getting out of hand.

Let me make this clear.

From my experiences and the experiences of all of those I train with (the ones who do it every day), reverse clickies are very very capable of being used in tactical situations.

The clicks do not matter. The lack of motor skills to operate it is a joke.

It is proven. And I am an LEO, and HAVE been through stressful situations. Also, it's been stressed to myself and my brothers over and over again that fine motor skills go right out the window during high stress situations.

Even during rapid deployment training scenarios, I've observed that fine motor skills are somewhat lost -- and this is when
"people like me" know that no one is going to die.

I could find you at least a dozen ERU team members that would tell you reverse clickys are a no, the noise is an issue, dropping the light is an issue, every single little preventable thing is an issue.

Seriously though, I don't want to turn this into a big thing -- You like them, that's fine. I'm strongly opinioned against them myself. We can agree to disagree. Maybe I worded it too strongly when I said "they suck". But that's how I feel.