American horsepower - .454, .460 or .500?

[Patriot]

I should've been more specific, I was referring to the more recent development of the non-leaded "green" bullet. I got sick of handling lead, and when I used 9mm American Ammunition frangibles in my Glock cleaning it was a cinch.

....but the handling of jacketed ammunition doesn't result in exposure to lead. Also, jacketed ammo doesn't foul a bore any more than a non-leaded "green bullet" since both are jacketed. Exposure to lead would be from inhaling airborne lead particles on indoor ranges or eating food after handling exposed lead bullets (non-jacketed). Even the indoor risk is greatly reduced with modern HEPA filtration systems in properly equipped indoor ranges.

Have you tested high for lead before, or do you have a reason to be overly concerned with lead exposure? I work with firearms and ammo and get tested every year but have never tested high before myself.

 

[windstrings]

I agree, many of the concerns are political ploys for money and power.
I see them taking polydent off the market till they can make it without zinc.
Yet zinc is great for colds.... so to the folks with dentures catch more colds now?
Isn't zinc in every penny we touch, or not so anymore?

At any rate, I still hear people telling me not to put a pencil in my mouth because of lead poisoning and there isn't any lead in pencils anymore!

Many things we touch and breath are poisonous in higher doses.... included some of the life giving antibiotics we take and heart medicines etc.

I do get sick of hearing about green, when the only green they are thinking about is money!

 

[mon90ey]

Ross SeyFried was (and may still be) a huge proponent of the .475 and .500 Linebaugh loads. For years he has advocated the many uses of the .45 Long Colt and its capabilities. I remember an article he wrote sometime back in the 1980's of his experiences in Austrailia, I believe, shooting ferral donkeys with these loads. As I remember, his favorite "pet" for these loads was either one or two of the Ruger Bisley Blackhawks, modified by Hamilton Bowen of Bowen Custom Arms of Louisville, Tn. As I recall, Bowen took a Standard Ruger Bisley chambered for a .45 Long Colt and replace the cylinder with a manufactured 5 round unfluted cylinder (to handle the extra pressure of the round), replaced the standard Ruger 71/2" barrel with a machined and rifled custom 5 or 5 1/2" barrel (my memory slips at this point) fitted with custom tritium sights. Bowen later went on to manufacture a model of this piece with Ivory grips in .475 and called it the Seyfried #13. As I recall, you could at one time send him a new Ruger Bisley in .45 long Colt, and for about $1700 or so dollars, he would build you one just like it. Seyfried love to shoot it, and I once heard he had actually taken Cape Buffalo with it, but you must remember, Elmer Keith was his mentor, and that is where his love of the big bores came from. This whole project started with an attempt to obtain rifle accuracy from a handgun, 1" groups at 100 yards, as described in the article at this link. The amazing thing is they actually did it.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=321&magid=24

I personally own or have owned Ruger Bisley Blackhawks in the following calibers: .41. mag, .44 mag., and .45 long colt, and I must say I have loved them all. They just seem to fit my hand. I have personal experience with both the .45 ACP and the .454 Casul, and have found them both to be fine firearms in every sense of the word. But I must admit, I love my Ruger Bisleys. I shoot a .300 gr. .44 mag loaded for about 1365 fps. (I don't load them myself, I have them loaded by a friend) when I deer hunt, and I absolutely love it. Even though I usually have my .300 weatherby with me, I very seldom fire it, preferring the challenge of the pistol as opposed to the rifle. As the BIG loads go, this .44 mag. load is sort of small, but there is no ther feeling like it when you touch off a round in the big bore handguns, IMHO. Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[mon90ey]

I believe I am mistaken on two points in my previous post:

1. The Seyfried #13 was a Bowen Custom conversion for Seyfried that was named by Seyfried himself, not by Hamilton Bowen.
2. That .44 mag. load I shoot is a .300 gr. swc loaded with 23 gr.s of H-110 for about 1330 fps., not 1365 fps. as I previously stated. (I must be getting old!)

I humbly stand corrected.

Also, let me add the the barrel on the Seyfried #13 was, I'm told, a cut rifled 5 1/2'' Douglas Bull Barrel. I'm not sure what the spin was, somewhere between 1:12 and 1:18 I would think, and was very accurate at 25 yds.

By the way, Katchu, you would love this round and this handgun.

 

[dudemar]

....but the handling of jacketed ammunition doesn't result in exposure to lead. Also, jacketed ammo doesn't foul a bore any more than a non-leaded "green bullet" since both are jacketed. Exposure to lead would be from inhaling airborne lead particles on indoor ranges or eating food after handling exposed lead bullets (non-jacketed). Even the indoor risk is greatly reduced with modern HEPA filtration systems in properly equipped indoor ranges.

Have you tested high for lead before, or do you have a reason to be overly concerned with lead exposure? I work with firearms and ammo and get tested every year but have never tested high before myself.

There's no lead in the newer frangibles, what's there to lose?:shrug:

I agree, many of the concerns are political ploys for money and power.
I see them taking polydent off the market till they can make it without zinc.
Yet zinc is great for colds.... so to the folks with dentures catch more colds now?
Isn't zinc in every penny we touch, or not so anymore?

At any rate, I still hear people telling me not to put a pencil in my mouth because of lead poisoning and there isn't any lead in pencils anymore!

Many things we touch and breath are poisonous in higher doses.... included some of the life giving antibiotics we take and heart medicines etc.

I do get sick of hearing about green, when the only green they are thinking about is money!

I put "green" in quotes for a reason.

 

[kaichu dento]

I believe I am mistaken on two points in my previous post:

1. The #13 Keith was a Bowen Custom conversion for Seyfried that was named by Seyfried himself, not by Hamilton Bowen.
2. That .44 mag. load I shoot is a .300 gr. swc loaded with 23 gr.s of H-110 for about 1330 fps., not 1365 fps. as I previously stated. (I must be getting old!)

I humbly stand corrected.

Also, let me add the the barrel on the #13 Keith was, I'm told, a cut rifled 5 1/2'' Douglas Bull Barrel. I'm not sure what the spin was, somewhere between 1:12 and 1:18 I would think, and was very accurate at 25 yds.

By the way, Kaichu, you would love this round and this handgun.

I'm definitely a fan of heavy barrels and the benefits they offer in regards to reducing muzzle flip, perceived recoil and front sight movement!

 

[william lafferty]

If one is trying to decide which of these guns to purchase, it seems to me that the purpose for buying the gun needs to be looked at. I owned two Freedom Arms 454's and bought them for bear defense while hiking. I also handloaded heavy cast bullets. The attraction of the .454 was simply the power and penetration when used with cast bullets.

Having said that, I never really liked the Freedom Arms guns. I found them difficult to shoot and slow to get into action. We devised something we called bear-drills, which was shooting at a bear-sized head on a back board at about ten yards, drawing from the holster, and imagining that the bear was charging. We couldn't get the target to bounce up and down like a bear, and it wouldn't growl or slobber as it sat there, but it was a close as we could come. Even in that situation, I was lucky to get off two shots at what I thought were the moments just before I would be devoured. I haven't fired any of the other .454 guns, the double actions, and I have no idea whether they are any easier or faster to shoot.

On the other hand, if you plan to shoot deer or stationary targets at some distance, situations where speed is not a consideration, the Freedom Arms gun may be fine. It is certainly accurate.

I am intrigued by Bullseyebill's comment about cat hunters using the Glock 10mm. The ballistics of the 10mm is identical to that of the .41 mag when loaded up to original speed. AND the Glock 10 mm is easy and fast to shoot. I wonder whether I would not have been better off with that gun and its 15 round magazine.

 

[Patriot]

I am intrigued by Bullseyebill's comment about cat hunters using the Glock 10mm. The ballistics of the 10mm is identical to that of the .41 mag when loaded up to original speed. AND the Glock 10 mm is easy and fast to shoot. I wonder whether I would not have been better off with that gun and its 15 round magazine.

I really like the 10mm and the Glock21. I own one and shoot it frequently. For black bear I think it would be great but I personally would feel undergunned with it in Alaska regardless of it's rate of fire. I'm with you, that I'd be packing a .454 or at the very least, the stiffest .44 mags I could load.







I handled a brand new Magnum Research BFR in .450 Marlin today. Quite the cannon and not priced to awfully bad either.
http://www.magnumresearch.com/bfr_specs.asp

 

[windstrings]

Ok.. enough of this nonsense..... I got you guys all beat!


Just follow me down the freeway and I'll show you how it works! :devil:

 

[kaichu dento]

Ok.. enough of this nonsense..... I got you guys all beat!


Just follow me down the freeway and I'll show you how it works! :devil:

I want to be there when you fire that bad boy up! When's dinner!

 

[light1up]

500 smith. Only for this reason. Its huge. Its bad *** and almost a symbol of America when I look at it, well maybe at least Texas. Its fairly mainstream and by now it shouldnt go the way of the failed rounds. All the guns are great and one would be better than another in any given situation depending on your needs. Id say things like recoil, length, portability are a mute point here. Once you get that DE 50 locked down and do some accuracy test youll be sending that thing back to israel IMHO and experiences.

 

[mr.snakeman]

This has been one fun thread to read. I´d really like to try the .460 and the .500 (I have tried a .454) but any chance to be able to do so here is downright impossible because of the way the gun license system is formulated (allowed calibers must be allowable in competition shooting events, something these two arn´t by any of the recognized shooting organizations here that I know of). I´ll just have to make do with developing more .44mag.-kicking loads for my Ruger Bisley (I´m not about to try any of them in my model P :mecry.

 

[windstrings]

This has been one fun thread to read. I´d really like to try the .460 and the .500 (I have tried a .454) but any chance to be able to do so here is downright impossible because of the way the gun license system is formulated (allowed calibers must be allowable in competition shooting events, something these two arn´t by any of the recognized shooting organizations here that I know of). I´ll just have to make do with developing more .44mag.-kicking loads for my Ruger Bisley (I´m not about to try any of them in my model P :mecry.

Aren't the other two "alternate" sizes allowable?... if any are.. that may be the ticket!

 

[mr.snakeman]

Aren't the other two "alternate" sizes allowable?... if any are.. that may be the ticket!

Even if the .454 and the .45 Colt can be fired in the .460 if the caliber is stated ".460" by the maker then that is the caliber stated on the license and no police licensing section will approve a caliber for shooting purposes that is not on the "approved" list by the recognised shooting organizations, .45 being the largest allowed caliber (it might work if the license is for collecting but then it may never, repeat, never be fired-even for testing-by the owner or any other licensed shooter :shakehead).

 

[nasa779]

what about a .700 nitro express lol

 

[windstrings]

As to the title, 460 if I had to choose.
Because I believe in function over many other aspects.
You can shoot 454 and 45LC in a 460, a huge range of pressures and loads.
Easy plinkin with lead 45LC, to serious dangerous game knockdown with 460.
My 2 cents.

I still have not purchased but did finally get out to look at a nice selection at Cabelas.

I really appreciate the posts and insight many have offered.
As I reread the posts I realized how much I missed the first time... mostly because it was all overwhelming at first.
There really is a wealth of knowledge posted here.

Patriot has gotten several complements on his posts and I wish I were as good a writer, his along with several others has brought me to this still struggling conclusion.

I looked at many pistols today and while many were very nice for home use or moderate range, few I found I felt would give adequate trajectory to reach and have reasonable consistent accuracy at 100+ yards without killing my wrist.

I'm a medium frame kinda guy with fairly small wrists... wear 6.5 to 7.5 gloves, weigh about 180lbs and I felt the .460 was a lot of pistol!


What keeps bringing me back to it is the fact that many feel its a good shooter as far as kick and since the long colts will fit it may be smarter to get that with aspirations of moving up bigger if I can tolerate it later on.

I also handled the .44 Super Redhawk. I like the 9.5" barrel and figure it would sooth the kick even more as well as increase velocity a tad.
It seems more reasonable and ammo is plentiful and the kick should be moderate.

However, with the .44 Super Redhawk you have what you have.
But that may be ok if thats all the pistol I will ever want to shoot once I find out how the kick and feel is.

If I get the .460 and find the .454 and .460 ammo is too nasty to shoot, I will be stuck with a .460 shooting long colt .45's which will not achieve the distances I was originally looking for.

The other thought was to shoot .460 ammo with 200 grain bullets.. that would be extremely fast and maybe the kick would be tolerable.
I wonder how the two compare with smaller bullets respectively.

The biggest negative to the .460 was its size.. while that would help with kick, its felt like it was made for a slightly bigger hand.... the middle of the last segment of my index finger of my right hand is where the trigger hit.
When cocked, it fit a little better.

I"m not super motivated by price the the .44 Super magnum is a bit cheaper.
So I boil it down to this question.

Would the .460 shooting 200gr bullets be more reasonable or would I prefer the .44 Super Redhawk shooting 240gr bullets?
I didn't see smaller gr bullets for the .44.

I even considered a 9mm but couldn't find one that looked like a long shooter with barrel length and adequate velocity... but there may be one.

I would appreciate any input someone may have.

 

[kaichu dento]

If you're accustomed to shooting I wouldn't be too concerned about being able to handle the .460 as all accounts I've read/heard comparing it to the .454 have said that it was softer in recoil, presumably due to the muzzle brake.

I let a range of friends shoot my .454 when I had it and a couple of them were 12 and 14. The 12 year old thought it was interesting, but hard recoiling. The 14 year old wanted one, and neither of them were very big. The thing is to know how to hold a larger caliber and neither lock your arm, nor hold it too loosely and you're good to go!

Another thing I love about the weight is that I'm a better shot with these barrel heavy guns because the front sight doesn't dance so much!

Something else to help confuse you more is that if you like the idea, the Super Redhawk is a piece of cake for a gunsmith to shorten!

I had mine shortened to 5.5" and it's much easier to carry if you're a small or medium frame and want it under your left arm like I carry mine. When it got shortened the annoying message on the side got removed and with the sight properly repositioned everyone that sees it wonders where I managed to find one!

 

[Patriot]

If I get the .460 and find the .454 and .460 ammo is too nasty to shoot, I will be stuck with a .460 shooting long colt .45's which will not achieve the distances I was originally looking for.

The other thought was to shoot .460 ammo with 200 grain bullets.. that would be extremely fast and maybe the kick would be tolerable.
I wonder how the two compare with smaller bullets respectively.

The biggest negative to the .460 was its size.. while that would help with kick, its felt like it was made for a slightly bigger hand.... the middle of the last segment of my index finger of my right hand is where the trigger hit.
When cocked, it fit a little better.

I"m not super motivated by price the the .44 Super magnum is a bit cheaper.
So I boil it down to this question.

Windy, if you can get to a range and rent or borrow a .44 Mag, that would be a great place to begin. That way you'll have a standard by which to measure all things against. In other words, if you find the recoil manageable, then the .454-.460 would certainly be worth considering. If the recoil is too much or right on the edge of preventing "shooting happiness" then you'll want to stay away from the calibers mentioned here.

Shooting lighter bullets through a compensated barrel will decrease felt recoil. That's because there is more gas volume to operate the comp. Without a comp....it really just comes down to calculating "power factor." Multiply the weight of the projectile x the velocity to get a good idea of how two different loads will measure up with regards to felt recoil in the same gun.

200 grain bullet x 2200 fps = 440,000 or "440 PF"
300 grain bullet x 1500 fps = 450,000 or "450 PF"

These two loads will provide a similar, but not exact, recoil impulse in a non-compensated gun. A compensator or "magna-porting" will allow you to fire larger calibers more comfortably.

As for the .460 grip size and fit. I'll assume you're referring to an X-Frame S&W but the middle of the last finger pad isn't terrible for a large double action revolver. When you shoot single action that's exactly where you want the trigger to fall anyway. The X-Frame was also designed to fit a medium sized hand, which is what I have, and is actually the same size as the N-Frame S&W.

Windy
Would the .460 shooting 200gr bullets be more reasonable or would I prefer the .44 Super Redhawk shooting 240gr bullets?
I didn't see smaller gr bullets for the .44.

440 Power Factor compared to a 312 Power Factor with standard loads. You can figure that by percentage if you like but the .460 will have more recoil....30% or so. You can fire .44 Special through .44mag revolvers if you want for reduced recoil. They're quite mellow actually.

Windy
I even considered a 9mm but couldn't find one that looked like a long shooter with barrel length and adequate velocity... but there may be one.

I would appreciate any input someone may have.

The 9mm is in a completely different universe from these others as you know. The .357 would probably be your lower limit but is an excellent caliber if you just want "magnum" power with a flat trajectory. It's best taken advantage of by the hand loader but it's an outstanding and popular round that will never go away due to it's commonality and popularity. 125 grain bullets are very fast when loaded to energetic pressures.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

 

[windstrings]

It sounds like the .44 would be cheaper and when using the Ruger Super Redhawk I can get ammo easy and poss cheaper and use heavy loads to achieve much of the same trajectory of the .460.
Another plus of the Redhawk is durability of the rugers.
Both are beautiful guns.. so thats not an issue.

But for flattest trajectory and range, I keep coming back to the .460

I don't like the idea of "having" to use ear protection to prevent going deaf and the .460 is a lot of gun to hold as the .44 feels a bit more molded for my hand.
But a lot of people like their .460's and I like the Hornady ammo for it too.
Here I read that recoil with the 200gr SST bullet is almost non existent.

Recoil with the 200gr SST is almost non-existent, however the muzzle blast and fireball are impressive with the bullet leaving at 2,200 fps. Double action is a cinch, but I was wearing a short sleeve shirt and it felt like I was getting a sunburn on my forearms. You can definitely feel the heat come back at you in double action. Still have all the arm hairs so it's not that bad.

Shooting lighter weight (240 - 260 gr) .454 Casull is like shooting .44 specials in a Redhawk .44 mag. A real non-event.

Now, move up to .460 CorBon 300gr JSP leaving the barrel at 1,750fps and you know you're shooting a serious round. Muzzle blast is noticably less than with the 200 gr, but the recoil is firm. Not painful, but firm. You could probably shoot a box at one sitting, but I might have to take a break after the first 10 and come back to it later.

Watching video's it appears I could probably shoot either one.

Another good post.

.460 S&W should be able to take a .44 Mag, a .460 is an extended version of the .454 Casull which is already more powerful than the .44 and will shoot farther using full power loads. A .44 is only effective out to 100 yards max if you load hot or maybe 125-150 yards max if you shoot a carbine rifle with some good loads, a .460 can reach to 200 yards out of a revolver.

Some interesting videos I found.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJz7bejbKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7tcAAoSLA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZCRs6jdmM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgxcZBCRZTs&feature=youtube_gdata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzBv...2D51DE4B&index=19&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omcOyqqry2A

 

[kaichu dento]

The reason that hurt his hand in the first video is that his elbows are locked and the way he's leaning back and spinning the cylinder really shows his rookiness. The guy in the second video obviously knows how to handle a gun.

Nice way to get firewood!