AW IMR-123 cells performance?

[gunga]

HI all.

I know some of you should be receiving your AW LiMn RCR123s soon.

I just wanted to start a thread so I could get a guage of performance of these cells.

How do they compare with the protected RCR123s? How about the other safe Chemistry, LiFEP04 cells?

How are the runtimes of these cells? I know they can handle more current but I'm curious if the lower capacity is very bad?

Can they handle mild overcharging (ie Ultrafire chargers?). How badly are they damaged by overdischarge?

I am using both LiFEP04 cells (only limited use) and RCR123s (protected). I think I would prefer a cell that does not shut off with no waraning, leaving me in the dark...

 

[AvroArrow]

You know gunga, that's a really good question that I've been wondering about myself. I've tried to dig around a bit and found some useful data. AW himself posted a discharge curve graph for his IMR16340 and LiFePO4s, but not his silver/black protected R123s. After some digging around I managed to find a few discharge graphs made by other CPF members on the performance of the black R123s and their results vary a bit so it may or may not be directly comparable with AW's own discharge curve graphs.

Here are links to different graphs:

IMR16340 (AW):
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2214963&postcount=1

LiFePo4 (AW):
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=1503626&postcount=2

R123 (Silverfox):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1398595&postcount=1

R123 (Raymond):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2445971&postcount=1

R123 (GrAndAG):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2640030&postcount=57


Here's a quick incomplete summary:

At 0.5A discharge, their capacities are as follows:
IMR16340: unknown
LiFePO4: 450mAh
black R123: 602mAh (Silverfox)
black R123: 570mAh (GrAndAG)
black R123: 557mAh (Raymond, avg of 2)

At 1.0A discharge, their capacities are as follows:
IMR16340: ~ 515mAh
LiFePO4: ~ 420mAh
black R123: 419mAh (Silverfox)
black R123: unknown (GrAndAG)
black R123: 481mAh (Raymond, avg of 2)

At 1.5A discharge, their capacities are as follows:
IMR16340: ~ 510mAh
LiFePO4: ~ 385mAh
black R123: 255mAh (Silverfox)
black R123: unknown (GrAndAG)
black R123: unknown (Raymond, avg of 2)

A note about Silverfox's graphs. His original post was made in May 2006 and last edited May 2007. AW released his black "high current" (max 1.5A discharge) R123 in Dec 2006, so I don't know if he tested the newer high current R123s or the older lower current R123s. The other thing is that his graphs cut-off at 2.5v, unlike Raymond & GrAndAG's graphs, both of which cut-off at 2.8V, so Silverfox's numbers actually a little higher than should be if you want to do a direct comparison.

The other thing about the graphs is that the LiFePO4s are on a differnt Y-axis scale because the starting and cut-off voltages are different from the IMR16340 and R123s (2.0V vs 2.8V), so I'm not certain if they are directly comparable.

So what does this all mean? At a 0.5A current draw, the R123>LiFePO4. I don't know where the IMR16340s fit in because there's no data for them at 0.5A draw. At 1.0A draw, the IMR>R123>LiFePO4. At 1.5A draw, IMR>LiFePO4>R123. This last bit is uncertain because I don't know which AW cell Silverfox tested and I can't find anyone else's graph testing the R123 at 1.5A.

What would be really useful is if AW produced a graph of the high current R123 so it would be more easily comparable. It would also be nice if he added 0.5A draw data for the IMR16340s too.

 

[StarHalo]

LiMNs mean we can make 380 lumen Surefire 2x123 lights (and will soon go beyond that as Lumens Factory accommodates LiMN cells), once you start getting those kinds of output numbers, I start to lose interest in runtime.. :devil:

 

[shomie911]

I was using AW RCR123 cells in my Surefire C2 (with LM HO-9) last night doing some work outside around the house when it suddenly cut out.

For the first second I thought the lamp burned out but then I remembered that AW cells have protection circuits and that they cut out instantaneously.

I have a pair of IMR16340 cells on the way so that doesn't happen again when more is counting on the light than around the house stuff.

Plus since the HO-9 is a 1.5 amp bulb, it will get slightly better runtime as well as slowly grow dimmer indicating I need to charge them.

I think the C2 with the HO-9 and IMR16340 is going to be a winning combination thanks to the durability of the host as well as the durability of these new cells.

Now I don't have to worry about my light becoming a grenade in my hand. :laughing:

 

[shomie911]

LiMNs mean we can make 380 lumen Surefire 2x123 lights (and will soon go beyond that as Lumens Factory accommodates LiMN cells), once you start getting those kinds of output numbers, I start to lose interest in runtime.. :devil:

You're thinking too small!

Surefire 6P with KT1 (or KT2) and an FM Bi-Pin MN Adapter with WA1111 bulb.

Somewhere around ~1000 lumens.

 

[StarHalo]

You're thinking too small!

I meant using only a drop-in, no modding (LF EO-9). It would still be interesting to see an EDC-sized 5761..

 

[thevainone]

You're thinking too small!

Surefire 6P with KT1 (or KT2) and an FM Bi-Pin MN Adapter with WA1111 bulb.

Somewhere around ~1000 lumens.

beem shots? and where do i buy that setup

 

[ampdude]

At 1.5A discharge, their capacities are as follows:
IMR16340: ~ 510mAh
LiFePO4: ~ 385mAh
black R123: 255mAh (Silverfox)
black R123: unknown (GrAndAG)
black R123: unknown (Raymond, avg of 2)

That's quite impressive. I used to run an HO-9 in a C3 Surefire with 17500's, and it looks like I should be getting close to the same runtime with these new cells in a 2 cell light. The HO-9 I had was more like 1.6A.

 

[AW]

Unlike lithium cobalt cells, the LiMN cells will hold a higher voltage and maintains 80% of their rated capacity even up to a 8C load. This is the reason they'll perform better on higher loads ( 2C and beyond ).

 

[gunga]

How are they at lower loads?

 

[AW]

You won't see much difference between the two at lower loads (0.5-1C) except runtime difference.

How are they at lower loads?

 

[gunga]

So at lower loads it is basically 550 mAh vs 750 mAh?

 

[mdocod]

Keep in mind that since these cells are wasting no space to a PCB circuit, they are not far behind a protected RCR123 in capacity. I would personally say that these cells are going to perform nearly as good or better at any load in the 1.2-1.5A range (that's the P90, SR-9, G90, WE 9V D26, HO-9 etc etc) compared to the regular protected cells. Anything at or over 1.5A and these cells will win hands down in all categories; performance, capacity, cycle life etc.

Mine are on the way. I'll have more to say when I have had a chance to run em a bit.

Eric

 

[M.S]

They run EO-9 nicely.... I have had my cells now for few days. I'm using them to run EO-9 in wolfeyes explorer with led tailcap. It's like the A2 on steroids
Now I need something insane for my M3, hopefully Lumens Factory will bring out the XO-M3 bulb. Did you notice that AW is working on softstarter and 3 level switch for surefire C/M/? series?

 

[gunga]

How are the beneifts for LED lights?

 

[mitch79]

Can someone who has these cells please post the size measurements for them.
I'd like to know if they will fit in a A2 Aviator.

Thanks.

 

[uhsodium]

They run EO-9 nicely.... I have had my cells now for few days. I'm using them to run EO-9 in wolfeyes explorer with led tailcap. It's like the A2 on steroids
Now I need something insane for my M3, hopefully Lumens Factory will bring out the XO-M3 bulb. Did you notice that AW is working on softstarter and 3 level switch for surefire C/M/? series?

I am waiting to have a HO-M6R on my M3T

 

[AvroArrow]

You won't see much difference between the two at lower loads (0.5-1C) except runtime difference.

So which cell would last longer at 0.50-0.75A current draw levels? The IMR or the black RCR123? It's obvious that at 1A or higher current draw, the IMR cell is the better choice.

I think what gunga is asking is which cell will last longer in a light that draws 0.50-0.75A from the battery (which is always more than what the circuit feeds the LED)?

 

[gunga]

How about my other questions on safety and charging/discharging etc?

 

[shomie911]

How about my other questions on safety and charging/discharging etc?

Li-Mn are safe cells as opposed to Li-ion cells.

So you shouldn't experience any problems charging or discharging them.