Bizarre & Horrifying Maine Shooting

[LuxLuthor]

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Wanted to highlight the muzzle flash on loads with more powder (+P)
That dazzling muzzle flash is energy not being used to propel the bullet.. this is why you have to match the power to your barrel length.

Real short barrels might look like some super stealthy concealed carry unit, but you sacrifice velocity and accuracy with short barrels.
There's a specific amount of time needed to 'use' all your powder, barrel length optimizes this.

Energy of bullets is a real thing:
~you have velocity
~you have weight (in grains)

find a balance to decide what you want

a .223 round is only 55 grain but muzzle speed is about 3000fps
that rifled slug I mentioned is like 360 grain but is 'only' going 1600fps
=== there are calculators online that'll give you energy : https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/standard

add; powders come in different burn rates, this has to be factored in also

I remember being surprised when serving aboard Trident Submarines that Navy Seals were using a suppressed .22 (among other weapons) I think a Ruger

 

[Monocrom]

BTW, lots of good gun info in this thread. I'm not looking into a carry permit or getting a handgun now, but I'm seriously considering a rifle or shotgun for home defense. Good to learn a little about firearms before then.

Shotgun, definitely. Rifles are horribly impractical for home defense. Too much penetration. That bullet goes into your neighbor's house and injures someone or even kills them? YOU are 100% responsible. Doesn't matter if you were aiming at an armed home intruder. Let's say you nailed him. That rifle round could still have enough energy behind it to keep traveling beyond his body, out your home, into the home of a neighbor and enter the body of an innocent resident.

Rifles are made for penetration at long distances. Thankfully shotguns can be loaded to greatly reduce the likelihood of over-penetration. Obviously, don't use slugs. At the extreme other end, don't use Bird-shot. No risk at all of over penetration, but no real stopping power either (unless your armed home intruder is a pigeon).

Semi-auto shotguns are expensive, plus most of them look way too tactical. Use one, and a jury of our peers here in NYC might decide to convict you just on looks alone.... of your shotgun. A good pump-action is overall the best choice. Avoid the Maverick 88. Popular choice. Especially in terms of what you get for a very low price-tag brand new. Problem is, those advocating it have never dropped one onto the ground. Ridiculously easy to render it inoperable. Remington 870 is overall a solid choice. Used by a huge number of police departments. Even to this day. A no-frills police turn-in is a good idea on the used market. One thing though, you have to load the shells PERFECTLY into the bottom, or it can seize up. Doesn't happen often. But often enough where it can be an issue. Mossberg 590 is another excellent choice. No need for one of the fancier versions. Though I do prefer the location of the safety on the 870, instead.

Very controversial aspect is the level of training needed to use a pump shotgun properly. In the heat of the moment when you need it, it's actually possible to forget to pump after each shot. You get off one shot, the threat is still coming at you. You didn't dedicate enough time and practice to your pump shotgun. So, you just stand there pulling the trigger again; wondering why your shotgun isn't working. That's a very real thing, it does happen!

One way to negate it, aside from tons of practice and training is to get a double-barrel shotgun. There are going to be folks who will despise me for making that recommendation. I see it this way.... Having two shots for sure, is much better than having one; and forgetting to pump. Much better. Easier to learn and practice with. Yes, for those in law-enforcement who literally go in harm's way; it's a stupid option that thankfully was phased out in America many decades ago. But for a home owner, it's still viable. Plus, you can say you're getting one for "Sporting Purposes" in order to prevent the holophobes from getting horribly upset and violently urinating on themselves in their collective outrage!

An Over & Under double-barrel shotgun for example is the most common type used for shooting clay pigeons. Avoid the ones made to look "Tactical." Brands to check out would be CZ, Mossberg, Winchester, Savage, and Browning. Though one aggravating issue is that these types usually come in the longer barrel lengths of 26"- 28" that are far from ideal for home defense. Ironically, Side-by-Side doubles can more easily be found in shorter barrel lengths.

If you prefer a Side-by-Side double barrel, look at the more traditional offerings from Stoeger. While a double trigger is okay, do NOT buy one with exposed hammers. Those need to be manually cocked before firing each barrel. Something very easy to forget to do during the heat of the moment.

Best choice in gauges: 12 or 20. Best not to go smaller than 20.
12 is ideal for men. 20 is more for women, or elderly men.

Hope this helps a bit. But please do more research on your own before coming to a conclusion.

EDIT: Typo.

 

[Monocrom]

Yeah, if I really got into guns I could definitely see myself loading my own rounds.

For practice only.
Seriously, do NOT leave your hand-loads inside a gun kept for Protection. Load factory-made ammo only when not practicing with the firearm. Most common as dirt argument from lawyers not on your side, is going to be that you're a sadistic monster! So, you loaded your own ammo to make it far more lethal than it needed to be when you shot his client who was breaking into your home. Sound ridiculous? It is!

Unfortunately ignorant as hell judges still allow that decades old ridiculous argument to be made in front of just as equally ignorant jurors.

 

[alpg88]

In NYC you can not have a semi auto shotgun, I too recommend a double barrel with a bird shot, at 10-15 feet it is as good as slug, but wont go thru walls. I actually would recommend a exposed hammers, you store it with shells loaded, if you hear someone braking in, just c0ck them and you are good to go, instead of looking for that box of ammo, trying to load it under stress with shaky hands. That is probably the one of few thing that is true in the movie when it comes to guns. Forget about reloading it, you wont have a need or an opportunity. too bad good quality coach guns with hammers are very hard to find and they are not cheap

 

[jtr1962]

Shotgun, definitely. Rifles are horribly impractical for home defense. Too much penetration. That bullet goes into your neighbor's house and injures someone or even kills them? YOU are 100% responsible. Doesn't matter if you were aiming at an armed home intruder. Let's say you nailed him. That rifle round could still have enough energy behind it to keep traveling beyond his body, out your home, into the home of a neighbor and enter the body of an innocent resident.

Rifles are made for penetration at long distances. Thankfully shotguns can be loaded to greatly reduce the likelihood of over-penetration. Obviously, don't use slugs.

Semi-auto shotguns are expensive, plus most of them look way too tactical. Use one, and a jury of our peers here in NYC might decide to convict you just on looks alone.... of your shotgun. A good pump-action is overall the best choice. Avoid the Maverick 88. Popular choice. Especially in terms of what you get for a very low price-tag brand new. Problem is, those advocating it have never dropped one onto the ground. Ridiculously easy to render it inoperable. Remington 870 is overall a solid choice. Used by a huge number of police departments. Even to this day. A no-frills police turn-in is a good idea on the used market. One thing though, you have to load the shells PERFECTLY into the bottom, or it can seize up. Doesn't happen often. But often enough where it can be an issue. Mossberg 590 is another excellent choice. No need for one of the fancier versions. Though I do prefer the location of the safety on the 870, instead.

Very controversial aspect is the level of training needed to use a pump shotgun properly. In the heat of the moment when you need it, it's actually possible to forget to pump after each shot. You get off one shot, the threat is still coming at you. You didn't dedicate enough time and practice to your pump shotgun. So, you just stand there pulling the trigger again; wondering why your shotgun isn't working. That's a very real thing, it does happen!

One way to negate it, aside from tons of practice and training is to get a double-barrel shotgun. There are going to be folks who will despise me for making that recommendation. I see it this way.... Having two shots for sure, is much better than having one; and forgetting to pump. Much better. Easier to learn and practice with. Yes, for those in law-enforcement who literally go in harm's way; it's a stupid option that thankfully was phased out in America many decades ago. But for a home owner, it's still viable. Plus, you can say you're getting one for "Sporting Purposes" in order to prevent the holophobes from getting horribly upset and and violently urinating on themselves in their collective outrage!

An Over & Under double-barrel shotgun for example is the most common type used for shooting clay pigeons. Avoid the ones made to look "Tactical." Brands to check out would be CZ, Mossberg, Winchester, Savage, and Browning. Though one aggravating issue is that these types usually come in the longer barrel lengths of 26" - 28" that are far from ideal for home defense. Ironically, Side-by-Side doubles can more easily be found in shorter barrel lengths.

If you prefer a Side-by-Side double barrel, look at the more traditional offerings from Stoeger. While a double trigger is okay, do NOT buy one with exposed hammers. Those need to be manually cocked before firing each barrel. Something very easy to forget to do during the heat of the moment.

Best choice in gauges: 12 or 20. Best not to go smaller than 20.
12 is ideal for men. 20 is more for women, or elderly men.

Thanks for the detailed advice. Lots of potential options there.

At the extreme other end, don't use Bird-shot. No risk at all of over penetration, but no real stopping power either (unless your armed home intruder is a pigeon).

This gave me a good laugh just visualizing it. But would bird-shot be good for pizza rat?

Hope this helps a bit. But please do more research on your own before coming to a conclusion.

As I always do. I always thoroughly research far smaller purchases. For this I would probably be doing weeks/months of reading, watching videos of people using any potential candidates, etc.

For practice only.
Seriously, do NOT leave your hand-loads inside a gun kept for Protection. Load factory-made ammo only when not practicing with the firearm. Most common as dirt argument from lawyers not on your side, is going to be that you're a sadistic monster! So, you loaded your own ammo to make it far more lethal than it needed to be when you shot his client who was breaking into your home. Sound ridiculous? It is!

Unfortunately ignorant as hell judges still allow that decades old ridiculous argument to be made in front of just as equally ignorant jurors.

I hadn't thought of this but you're 100% right. I could see a judge who maybe saw one of the Death Wish movies where Charles Bronson was loading rounds for that huge gun throwing the book at me: "Sir, you used rounds for self-defense which were better suited for shooting elephants on a safari. Life without parole for you!"

 

[alpg88]

This gave me a good laugh just visualizing it. But would bird-shot be good for pizza rat?

From that distance it would rip it to shreds, it would probably take a piece of the stair too lol

 

[Monocrom]

Best to leave Pizza Rat alone. He's a celebrity now.
Could you imagine being hounded by both PETA and the mainstream media for ending Pizza Rat? Oh! Not worth it. 😉

 

[alpg88]

I used to work downtown Manhattan, 32 Broadway, and the back street was New street, most pizza places and cafe there would close at 4-5, so by 5 there were many garbage bags out from those places filled with food waste, and the rats knew it, I swear at almost exactly 5pm they would come out from basements, and crack in buildings, and rip those bags apart, hundreds of them, at the same time, as if someone opened the door, but they were not the only ones who was after leftovers, pigeons descended on the feast from ledges and rooftops, they were fighting rats for scraps, It was an entertainment like nothing else.

What was the worst is that all of those food places had storages in basements, that is where those rats hang out during the day, as a building engineer I had to go down those basements, we had transformers, diesel generators tanks, phone switch rooms, piping, valves....etc. I've seen rats that would make this pizza rat a mouse in comparison.
So next time you want to grab a bite in Manhattan, remember those rats tried your food first. and it goes for all places, even expensive restaurants

 

[orbital]

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One time buying 00 (double-aught buckshot) for my Mossberg 930 SPX
the guy behind me said double-aught,,, you must be going down to Milwaukee today

I laughed

 

[SCEMan]

Most of what you find on YouTube that you're seeking.... is B.S.

Everything I've mentioned above has existed long before YouTube did. Also, if we're talking gun-store myths, then I would have talked about not ever going beyond the maximum recommended smoke-less powder charge. Ironically, going significantly below the minimum is what's actually dangerous. (Contrary to old gun-shop myths.) Velocity of barrel lengths involving the very same .357 Mag. load can easily be tested in an afternoon with the right equipment, outdoor area, and a Dan Wesson revolver with several interchangeable barrel lengths.

I also despise gun-shop myths that have existed for decades. That's why I don't repeat them.

My first .357 was a Dan Wesson 15-2 model with 6,4,2.5" barrels & full profile shrouds. As you mentioned I tried numerous loads for each barrel length. Very different results (recoil, muzzle flash, bullet performance) was easily observed.

 

[bykfixer]

Pres. Ronald Reagan almost DIED from a lowly .22LR bullet, fired from a lowly POS RG revolver, that ricocheted off the door of the limo the president was getting into. It penetrated his lung, and he just about died. Don't ever down play the effectiveness of the .22 rimfire cartridges. Bullet placement is more important than caliber. I know you will never forget Jim and Sarah Brady, for whom the infamous Brady Bill was named. The same RG launched a .22LR bullet into Jim Brady's head. He was permanently paralyzed.

Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The 22 Ruger mark 2, 3 or 4 are a favorite of a paid hitman for that reason.

My brother's 2nd ex-wife's son went to see his daddy one afternoon. When he entered the house his daddy's head was plopped on the dining room table. The son thought nothing of it as his daddy was usually pass out drunk by sundown. He thought ole pop was asleep as usual. When he went to leave he saw a pistol on the floor next to his pop. Turns out the man had off'd himself through the temple, yet there was no mess.

 

[bykfixer]

Thanks for the detailed advice. Lots of potential options there.

This gave me a good laugh just visualizing it. But would bird-shot be good for pizza rat?



As I always do. I always thoroughly research far smaller purchases. For this I would probably be doing weeks/months of reading, watching videos of people using any potential candidates, etc.


I hadn't thought of this but you're 100% right. I could see a judge who maybe saw one of the Death Wish movies where Charles Bronson was loading rounds for that huge gun throwing the book at me: "Sir, you used rounds for self-defense which were better suited for shooting elephants on a safari. Life without parole for you!"

Short barreled 20 guage shotgun with bird shot will do what needs to be done without blasting the people in the next room. The short barrel allows you to turn around in tight quarters.

When I got married the 1st time my pop gave me a short barrel (10") over/under single action 20 guage/22. He said if you need to defend yourself pull the shotgun trigger, if you need to feed yourself pull the 22 trigger. It's never been fired thank goodness.

 

[alpg88]

I hadn't thought of this but you're 100% right. I could see a judge who maybe saw one of the Death Wish movies where Charles Bronson was loading rounds for that huge gun throwing the book at me: "Sir, you used rounds for self-defense which were better suited for shooting elephants on a safari. Life without parole for you!"

sounds like a urban myth/or a movie. but in any case you want to get an insurance policy, several companies offer it, 300-500 a year. they provide you a lawyer that specializes in self defense shootings, pay bail, provide self defense experts to testify in court, if needed, and cover up to certain sum if someone sues you

 

[Monocrom]

sounds like a urban myth/or a movie. but in any case you want to get an insurance policy, several companies offer it, 300-500 a year. they provide you a lawyer that specializes in self defense shootings, pay bail, provide self defense experts to testify in court, if needed, and cover up to certain sum if someone sues you

I'm very leery of those 2A Insurance companies.
Sounds like a great idea, on paper.
My gut is telling me something isn't quite right.

Though, for those who can afford it, I'd definitely recommend having a seasoned criminal defense attorney on retainer if after a shooting, one were to be arrested for simply defending themselves.

 

[jtr1962]

I'm very leery of those 2A Insurance companies.
Sounds like a great idea, on paper.
My gut is telling me something isn't quite right.

Though, for those who can afford it, I'd definitely recommend having a seasoned criminal defense attorney on retainer if after a shooting, one were to be arrested for simply defending themselves.

On another note it's a shame the kind of world we live where even a cut-and-dry self-defense shooting could turn into a criminal charge, or more commonly a lawsuit.

 

[orbital]

My first .357 was a Dan Wesson 15-2 model with 6,4,2.5" barrels & full profile shrouds. As you mentioned I tried numerous loads for each barrel length. Very different results (recoil, muzzle flash, bullet performance) was easily observed.

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Incredible coincidence:: Before you posted that^ SCEMan
Just yesterday at about 1pm buddy of mine called me (he was diving home between jobs) and toward the end of the conversation I asked
'what's the brand of revolver your neighbor has w/ the super long barrel?'
He said it's a Dan Wesson .357

The story behind it is;
he was somewhere north of here and he stopped at a garage sale,, really random, but he popped in.
There he saw the case with a pistol and a few different barrels included ~ They were asking $75
He went up to the people and said 'would you hold this for me I have to go get some cash', they said sure.
So he got some money & got it for $75

Not sure what its worth now or what series of the barrel options, but I have shot it with the longest barrel on it.
Remember it being almost cartoonish how long the barrel was.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

I'm very leery of those 2A Insurance companies.
Sounds like a great idea, on paper.
My gut is telling me something isn't quite right.

Though, for those who can afford it, I'd definitely recommend having a seasoned criminal defense attorney on retainer if after a shooting, one were to be arrested for simply defending themselves.

As with every subject, there are a lot of videos on YouTube.

 

[alpg88]

Well, the guy says company a,b,c is not as good as company d, maybe he is right, so now we know what company to use. until a guy from company E makes a video and says his company is better than a, b, c, and d

 

[orbital]

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Haven't watched that video^

More than two self defense shots and the District Attorney charges you, that's a fact.
People need to know this before thinking they can unload a whole clip into some bad guy.

 

[alpg88]

They will most likely charge you even if it is just 1 shot, but charges do not always mean conviction, also Da often press many charges in hopes that anything sticks, they often do not examine cases before pressing them, and it is not that unusual for them to be dropped later, assuming you have a good lawyer, cuz if you use free trial lawyer, you're screwed, they really are that bad, they have dozens if not hundreds of cases at any given time, they do not get into details of any of them.
Another thing that works great public pressure, even ultra woke DA in Manhattan, who charged 2 people during self defense, 1 with murder charges, had to drop them due to public pressure,