Bizarre & Horrifying Maine Shooting

[IMA SOL MAN]

Ironically, most cartridge explosions inside a gun are caused by too little smoke-less powder charge. Instead of adding in a bit too much of the recommended charge. Why? No clue. I just know it happens. Same thing with lights geared for Throw. If you want to maximize that, make that reflector HUGE (as in extremely wide). Why? again, no clue. Just how it is.

With handguns, a smaller, lighter bullet traveling at more feet per second (FPS) does significantly more damage than a heavier bullet with more mass traveling at slower FPS. This is why, bullet shape being the same, a .357 Magnum will easily cause more damage than a .45 ACP. (Although the .45 Purists will swear that's not the case. It is.)

A longer barrel also helps when it comes to such calibers as a .357 Magnum. Performance goes up. But not exponentially. For example, you get significantly more velocity from a 3-inch barrel revolver than a 2-inch one with the same .357 Magnum load. However, going from 3-inch to 4-inch nets you only a very slight increase in velocity. Certainly no where near as much going from a 2 to a 3.

Some of that is gun store myth. Modern pistol self defense bullets are enginered to comply with the FBI ballistic protocols, which limit penetration. SD pistol bullets, do not do much tissue damage at all, compared to rifle bullets. There is plenty of information and ballistic gel tests to prove this. Temporary stretch cavities are that-temporary, and that is pretty much what you get with pistol bullets. Rifle bullets will give you honest tissue damage, and a very large permanant wound cavity.

Honestly, there is so much BS going around in the gun culture, it really ticks me off. Usually it is from somebody trying to show off, and impress a novice who doesn't know any better. But there are plenty of videos on youtube and ballistic gel tests on the web to debunk a lot of this BS. Seek, and ye shall find.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

The most important aspect of pistol round is stopping power, faster .357 will go thru, with plenty of energy remaining, a .45 will not go thru, and will transfer all its energy into target, you do not really care how much damage it does, what you care is that it stops a person in his track, when someone is on drugs or on adrenaline he may not feel that significantly bigger internal damage, and still come at you, you do not want that, think of it as a being pierced with a sword vs punched by mike tyson, what will stop you faster?

"Stopping power" is a myth. What you see in the movies is BS. People do not get knocked down, blown backwards, etc. by a pistol bullet. That is pure Hollyweird entertainment, and the reason that the public believe a lot of the anti-gun BS that the politicians, who watch the same BS, spout. This is more of that gun store BS that I mentioned earlier. It keeps getting repeated, over and over, by people who don't know what they are talking about, they just parrot what they have heard. Do some research, learn!

 

[alpg88]

Well next time you are at a range try to shoot 9 and 45 at the same steel plate, you will see the difference, it is clear as day, by the sound the bullet hit makes, by how much the plate sways, 357 is not a fair comparison, it does have higher pressure and more energy than 45. but it is not as common now, due to pretty bad recoil, and not being used in almost any pistol, today pistols are much more common for self defense and carry, than revolvers, Very few people carry .380, for that purpose, i mean some do, some even believe a well placed .22 will do the job, but it is only until they actually have to use.

 

[Monocrom]

Most of what you find on YouTube that you're seeking.... is B.S.

Everything I've mentioned above has existed long before YouTube did. Also, if we're talking gun-store myths, then I would have talked about not ever going beyond the maximum recommended smoke-less powder charge. Ironically, going significantly below the minimum is what's actually dangerous. (Contrary to old gun-shop myths.) Velocity of barrel lengths involving the very same .357 Mag. load can easily be tested in an afternoon with the right equipment, outdoor area, and a Dan Wesson revolver with several interchangeable barrel lengths.

I also despise gun-shop myths that have existed for decades. That's why I don't repeat them.

 

[Monocrom]

"Stopping power" is a myth.

😳
All I'll say is, there's a HUGE difference between stopping power that you see in movies, vs. what occurs in real life. No, a blast from a shotgun loaded with slugs won't send a bad guy flying backwards out of a 2-story window, like in the movies. But it WILL stop him from continuing his attack.

 

[kaichu dento]

…some even believe a well placed .22 will do the job…

There are even a lot of people who know that a well placed .22 is better than a .338 that hits nothing but air.

Sad story about a couple of friends who got into a drunk argument. One said he was going to his apartment to get his gun and they meet in the hallway. Guy with the .45 empties it into his friend, who can't respond until the clip runs out. Then he fired one round and his friend died. Poor placement vs. tragically accurate placement sent one to the morgue with one hole, and the other to the hospital with regrets, and a whole clip in him.

 

[alpg88]

Most of what you find on YouTube that you're seeking.... is B.S.

Everything I've mentioned above has existed long before YouTube did. Also, if we're talking gun-store myths, then I would have talked about not ever going beyond the maximum recommended smoke-less powder charge. Ironically, going significantly below the minimum is what's actually dangerous. (Contrary to old gun-shop myths.) Velocity of barrel lengths involving the very same .357 Mag. load can easily be tested in an afternoon with the right equipment, outdoor area, and a Dan Wesson revolver with several interchangeable barrel lengths.

I also despise gun-shop myths that have existed for decades. That's why I don't repeat them.

I do not look at you tube videos, I go to the range myself, been doing it for over 30 years, long before internet.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Well next time you are at a range try to shoot 9 and 45 at the same steel plate, you will see the difference, it is clear as day, by the sound the bullet hit makes, by how much the plate sways, 357 is not a fair comparison, it does have higher pressure and more energy than 45. but it is not as common now, due to pretty bad recoil, and not being used in almost any pistol, today pistols are much more common for self defense and carry, than revolvers, Very few people carry .380, for that purpose, i mean some do, some even believe a well placed .22 will do the job, but it is only until they actually have to use.

Dude, where have you been for the last 23 years? A lot of your info is old, outdated and debunked, years ago.

The .380ACP sales surged during COVID-19 as people got scared and concealed carry spread all over the nation. There for awhile, .380ACP ammo was hard to find, and some gun stores hoarded it, and only sold it to a customer that bought a .380ACP pistol from them. The "pocket pistols" sold like hot cakes, .380ACP, .38 Special snub nose revolvers, were the most popular. The ammo manufacturers rushed to improve ammo for short barrel hand guns. I don't know if they are selling like they were, but I expect with the surge in terrorism in the world, and the invasion from the South, sales may surge again.

Yes, .45ACP has a heavier bullet than 9mmP, so it has more momentum. But humans do not behave like steel plates, the bullets penetrate, not impact and sway the human body like a steel plate. And "energy dump" theory has been debunked, too.

There are 3 ways people are stopped by pistol bullets:

1. Psychological: This is when they realize that ", I've been shot! Don't shoot, I give up!" They are persuaded by being shot to voluntarily stop attacking.

2. Central nervous system strike: This is when there is a bullet strike to the brain or spine that shuts them down mechanically, they simply cannot continue, because their body simply can't function to do it. This is an immediate stop.

3. Exsanguination: This is when the body has bled out to the point that the brain loses consciousness. At that point, the person passes out, and soon expires from loss of blood. Depending on the number and sizes of the holes leaking, the time to do this varies. The more holes you put in the core, the quicker they are going to bleed out. This is why the person can be mortally wounded, yet continue an attack for a period, long enough to wound or kill the victim, then succumb to the wounds. You could get lucky and hit a femoral artery, that will cause rapid bleed out, but depending on where it is hit, a tourniquet could possibly be used to save the person.

 

[alpg88]

LMAO stopping power is defiantly not a myth, you do not even need to know any thing about guns to feel it, anyone who even been in a fight, especially if you are a martial arts instructor, will know how a weak punch will not slow you down much and a heavy one will knock the wind out of you, make you see stars and lights in the eyes dim.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Well next time you are at a range try to shoot 9 and 45 at the same steel plate, you will see the difference, it is clear as day, by the sound the bullet hit makes, by how much the plate sways, 357 is not a fair comparison, it does have higher pressure and more energy than 45. but it is not as common now, due to pretty bad recoil, and not being used in almost any pistol, today pistols are much more common for self defense and carry, than revolvers, Very few people carry .380, for that purpose, i mean some do, some even believe a well placed .22 will do the job, but it is only until they actually have to use.

Pres. Ronald Reagan almost DIED from a lowly .22LR bullet, fired from a lowly POS RG revolver, that ricocheted off the door of the limo the president was getting into. It penetrated his lung, and he just about died. Don't ever down play the effectiveness of the .22 rimfire cartridges. Bullet placement is more important than caliber. I know you will never forget Jim and Sarah Brady, for whom the infamous Brady Bill was named. The same RG launched a .22LR bullet into Jim Brady's head. He was permanently paralyzed.

Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jtr1962]

Ironically, most cartridge explosions inside a gun are caused by too little smoke-less powder charge. Instead of adding in a bit too much of the recommended charge. Why? No clue. I just know it happens. Same thing with lights geared for Throw. If you want to maximize that, make that reflector HUGE (as in extremely wide). Why? again, no clue. Just how it is.

With handguns, a smaller, lighter bullet traveling at more feet per second (FPS) does significantly more damage than a heavier bullet with more mass traveling at slower FPS. This is why, bullet shape being the same, a .357 Magnum will easily cause more damage than a .45 ACP. (Although the .45 Purists will swear that's not the case. It is.)

A longer barrel also helps when it comes to such calibers as a .357 Magnum. Performance goes up. But not exponentially. For example, you get significantly more velocity from a 3-inch barrel revolver than a 2-inch one with the same .357 Magnum load. However, going from 3-inch to 4-inch nets you only a very slight increase in velocity. Certainly no where near as much going from a 2 to a 3.

Last paragraph is simple physics and velocity. The bullet takes more time to pass through the third inch than the fourth one. Hence more time to be accelerated by the expanding gases from the gunpowder burning. Also, as the length of barrel behind the bullet increases, the gas pressure goes down. Hence less "push" from the gases in the fourth inch. Or put in layman's terms, adding barrel length has diminishing returns.

BTW, lots of good gun info in this thread. I'm not looking into a carry permit or getting a handgun now, but I'm seriously considering a rifle or shotgun for home defense. Good to learn a little about firearms before then.

 

[bigburly912]

Look up extreme shock ammo.

Air Marshall's used it to prevent over penetration on planes. It would open up as soon as it touched water. Wouldn't even penetrate denim or thick shirts. The stuff hit like a ton of bricks though. A very neat round. They have several and I can't remember the names but man it was neat.


RIP Jeff.

 

[alpg88]

Last paragraph is simple physics and velocity. The bullet takes more time to pass through the third inch than the fourth one.

Depends on a load, when i shot +p+ load there is a huge muzzle flash so there is plenty of unburned power, with regular loads, there is barely a spark. A good hunter and al snipers load their own, try different powers, that burn differently, bullet weight combination, also barrels, they are not straight tubes when bullet moves thru, they wobble like a noodle, so the trick for accuracy, is to catch a moment when the bullet exists the barrel, and the barrel front is actually pointing straight, it is actually complex issue, not as important for 100 yards shots but when you shoot 500 and up it matters.

 

[jtr1962]

In nyc you need a permit for rifles and shotguns too, no semiautos of any kind, nothing that holds more than 5 rounds in a feeding device. But now it is easier to file for one than even 30 years ago, when i did it, you do not need to go to 120-55 queens blvd to pick up an application, everything is submitted online, usually takes 2-3 month for approval. you will need to go to get a purchase form, that will become your rifle/shotgun registration after you fill it out and submit, I used to have a half a dozen of shotguns, until they changed laws 10-12 years ago, had to sell most of them.
It is now possible to get a carry license in nyc, i'm applying for one now, and a buddy of mine already got it, you do not need to be a retired cop, security, or own a business, it is not possible just like in PA or FL a bit more complicated but possible, i suggest you do it now before they ban them.

I've been actually holding off even on the rifle or shotgun hoping the courts will overturn a few more of NYC's gun laws, especially the high permit fees and short expiration times. In under a decade you'll spend more on permit fees than the gun cost. That to me violates 2A rights by making gun ownership harder for those without means. Usually, it's the poor who live in bad neighborhoods who need the guns the most.

Taking care of my mom, I can't get out of the house to go to a range or anything like that were I to get a carry permit. Like I said, I think it's only a matter of time before the courts overturn many of the more restrictive NYC gun laws. I'm fine with a one-time permit fee, for example, but not every other year.

Depends on a load, when i shot +p+ load there is a huge muzzle flash so there is plenty of unburned power, with regular loads, there is barely a spark. A good hunter and al snipers load their own, try different powers, that burn differently, bullet weight combination, also barrels, they are not straight tubes when bullet moves thru, they wobble like a noodle, so the trick for accuracy, is to catch a moment when the bullet exists the barrel, and the barrel front is actually pointing straight, it is actually complex issue, not as important for 100 yards shots but when you shoot 500 and up it matters.

Interesting. I wasn't even considering that there might be unburned powder in the barrel.

Yeah, if I really got into guns I could definitely see myself loading my own rounds.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

LMAO stopping power is defiantly not a myth, you do not even need to know any thing about guns to feel it, anyone who even been in a fight, especially if you are a martial arts instructor, will know how a weak punch will not slow you down much and a heavy one will knock the wind out of you, make you see stars and lights in the eyes dim.

I thought we were talking about pistol rounds!

If you want to "go there", then yeah, there is such a thing as knock down, every vehicle on the highway has it, much more than any punch. But we were talking about it in relation to pistol rounds, not anything else.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Look up extreme shock ammo.

Air Marshall's used it to prevent over penetration on planes. It would open up as soon as it touched water. Wouldn't even penetrate denim or thick shirts. The stuff hit like a ton of bricks though. A very neat round. They have several and I can't remember the names but man it was neat.


RIP Jeff.

The Box O' Truth #23 - ExtremeShock Ammo and the...

I had some friends from the HS2000/XDTalk Forum contact me about some ammo they were interested in testing. My friend DJDan said that if I would be willing to test some, he would arrange for the purchase of the ammo. This ammo is expensive. This is a picture of what I received. That small...

www.theboxotruth.com

 

[bigburly912]

The Box O' Truth #23 - ExtremeShock Ammo and the...

I had some friends from the HS2000/XDTalk Forum contact me about some ammo they were interested in testing. My friend DJDan said that if I would be willing to test some, he would arrange for the purchase of the ammo. This ammo is expensive. This is a picture of what I received. That small...

www.theboxotruth.com

interesting little rounds they tried to make. They changed their name at one point but I can't remember what it was. What blew my mind was that the guy legitimately had a contract with the government for some of his specialty rounds.

Actually no, I take that back. Not surprising at all. We love wasting money.

 

[orbital]

Depends on a load, when i shot +p+ load there is a huge muzzle flash so there is plenty of unburned power, with regular loads,..

+

Wanted to highlight the muzzle flash on loads with more powder (+P)
That dazzling muzzle flash is energy not being used to propel the bullet.. this is why you have to match the power to your barrel length.

Real short barrels might look like some super stealthy concealed carry unit, but you sacrifice velocity and accuracy with short barrels.
There's a specific amount of time needed to 'use' all your powder, barrel length optimizes this.

Energy of bullets is a real thing:
~you have velocity
~you have weight (in grains)

find a balance to decide what you want

a .223 round is only 55 grain but muzzle speed is about 3000fps
that rifled slug I mentioned is like 360 grain but is 'only' going 1600fps
=== there are calculators online that'll give you energy : https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/standard

add; powders come in different burn rates, this has to be factored in also

 

[alpg88]

Yea, pretty much, but with handguns you use what is available, unless you reload, yes some powder is unburned, energy wasted, but you will still get more energy in a bullet than with regular loads. With revolvers you always have some power loss due to gap, except for nagant. the heavier the load is the more gases leak thru the gap, thou in real world that loss is negligible, but it sure makes a great fire ring effect at night

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

This thread needs some pictures.