Calipers, Digital, Vernier or Dial?

[PEU]

This is my current desk caliper:

Even if it works OK and batteries last forever I want to purchase a nice caliper "for my desk" this one won't be near the machining area, mostly because there the calipers have a shorter lifespan

Im looking at ebay and found some nice 0.01mm Mitutoyo dial calipers, I offered this seller $50 for this one shipped and he counter offered $65 There are others but all of them near this price, this one is 0.01 but others are 0.02 and 0.05mm precision.

What you guys think? should I go dial or these are very old school and digital is what will give me the best results?


Pablo

 

[unterhausen]

for me it doesn't make sense to buy anything but a high quality digital caliper. I probably would have paid for a set with the errors I have made with dial, and that's not including my time. Verniers are just silly in my view, maybe if they came with magnifying glasses like the really precise ones do. This is one area where machinists can get macho, but I don't think that's a sensible approach.

 

[mototraxtech]

I like digital as time is important to me and I like a number that i can punch into the calculator and move on.

 

[precisionworks]

I want to purchase a nice caliper "for my desk" this one won't be near the machining area

As long as there are NO chips nearby, it's hard to beat the Starrett 120 (English) or 120M (Metric): http://www.starrett.com/download/61_120_caliper.pdf

Battery life is forever, as there are no batteries to replace :laughing:

Pretty inexpensive on eBay, seems like I paid $53 for my 120 12". It was just a little used, the face needed polishing with SemiChrome, and I also smoothed out some of the edges with a non-woven pad. About $150 new.

it doesn't make sense to buy anything but a high quality digital caliper.

+1

Not the place to bargain hunt

 

[CLBME]

I don't need a lot of precision as I use mine for hobbies and reloading. I used to use a nice vernier but as noted it was tough with bifocals and I had to use a magnifying glass. I've used a dial too and that was easier for me than the vernier. I recently bought a digital set and I won't go back.

 

[kromeke]

Digitals are my favorite with Mitutoyo at the top of the list. I think they make the best digital calipers bar none. You can spend more, but you won't get a better caliper.

Dial calipers I avoid. I do like the aesthetics of a nice dial caliper, but I've seen too many with the needle pointing in a funny direction from where the gear has skipped on the rack.

I like vernier calipers. Dead simple, no batteries. But 2 different people will often get answers a division apart. Dirt cheap on ebay. As long as the things haven't been dropped, they should be fine (However, some of the metric ones are hard to read).

Having said all that, I don't know if I'd trust a dial caliper to 0.01mm. I don't know if I'd trust any caliper down to 0.01mm. You're getting into micrometer (instrument) range.

I have a solar powered Mitutoyo digital that I've owned and used since 1997. They still work and measure out excellent (I check them against some gage blocks every now and then). They don't work in low light. I use them all the time.

I have a Scherr-Tumico (sp?) vernier that is inch-metric with 50 division inch scales. I never use it. I have it just in case my other calipers fail me.

I recently picked up a Tesa (B&S labeled) at the pawn shop for about ~30 dollars US. They are the newer Dura-cal IP67 rated. Nice enough calipers, the price was right, but I still prefer the Mitutoyo I own because it has an absolute scale. The Dura-cal has one button, which means I can reset zero if I don't press it right when I'm switching to the other unit (inch/mm). They passed calibration (me with some gage blocks). So I'm happy with them. They are Swiss made, and (to my surprise, read down to 0.01 mm). I even think they were made this year.

I hear the newer Mitutoyos are made in Brazil. Haven't heard if quality has been affected.

All said, I prefer Mitutoyos for my digital caliper needs. I think they are at the top of the game for digital calipers.

Some people swear by the cheapo HF or equivalent $15 caliper. I'm not one of them.

Edit: just looked again at my Mitutoyo calipers. They read to 0.01mm as well. However, in the specs, they are rated as being accurate to 0.02mm I don't use the metric very often, I'm more on the inch system. Still don't think I'd trust a caliper to 0.01mm.

 

[kaptain_zero]

I have all three types of calipers.... the verniers are now out, eyesight being what it is....<sigh>, even though my 35+ year old metric vernier caliper that I was given waaaay back when I went to Machine & Mechanics school in EU still reads as accurate today as it did back then.... but only if I can see the darn thing.

Digital calipers...... I don't really care for them... yes, you get nice big numbers to read if you get the right one, but batteries die, cost money, and they do not read any more accurate than dial calipers which I prefer in a heartbeat. I have one that reads inch/metric at the same time on the dial, the other reads Decimal/fractions on the same scale. No button pushing to get to the right display, and most importantly, no issues with converting one fraction to another to get them all the same (in woodworking of course), just pick the right number closest to where you're at that fits. It gets frustrating with digital when you are trying to work in 32nds but the readout only shows 59/128 and you need to convert in your head. The dial lets you do that without all the mental gymnastics. Yeah, you have to keep dial calipers clean, but I've always done that so it's not an issue to me. Dials are generally large enough for me to read without problems. Did I mention that the batteries never go dead?!?!

I don't think it matters which one you go for.... If I were working with these new digital readout displays, digital would probably be the way to go.... faster to plug the numbers into another digital device, whatever it is... confuser, calculator or digital readout on a lathe/mill....

Measurement confidence does require quality equipment, no "One Hung Lo" branded ebay special will give you that, Starrett, Brown & Sharpe or Mitutoyo and the like would be the way to go.

I would hit the local pawn shops before buying used measurement gear from Ebay.... at least I can put them in my hand and examine them for damage, wear and accuracy ( just take along a couple small parts you know the exact size of already). I've gotten a Brown and Sharp digital micrometer (at the time, local new cost was $1100.... I paid $125), various dial gauges and other gear for quite reasonable prices.

Regards

Christian

 

[PEU]

Local pawn shops ask ridiculous prices, I'll take my chances with ebay. Last time I purchased calipers they were Wilson Wolpert brand(dutch) did not like them much, purchased a lot of 6, already sold 3 locally at 2.5 times the price I paid for 6 So it pays to try sometimes.

Already saved some ebay searches for Mitutoyo, B&S, Etalon and Starret dials.
Digital mitus, B&S or Starrett always get a lot of attention and can't be won at reasonable prices.


Pablo

 

[leeholaaho]

harborfreight.com

$9.99 when on sale - they work the same as the $150 ones

 

[Atlascycle]

In my experience if the needle is off on a Dial caliper that is a good indication that it has been dropped. My Starrett 120's read High noon at Zero.....


Jason

 

[ironhorse]

I have never picked up my dial calipers to find the battery dead.

 

[precisionworks]

harborfreight.com

$9.99 when on sale - they work the same as the $150 ones

Correct :thumbsup:

PM your phone number, as I have a large tract of swampland in Arizona for sale, really cheap. Even has a view of the Pacific ocean.

:nana::eeksign:

 

[precisionworks]

should I go dial or these are very old school and digital is what will give me the best results?

All three have the same accuracy spec, which is +/- .0010" (.025 mm).

None of the three are accurate enough for critical work. They help get close to a dimension on the lathe or mill, and they give a rough dimensional measurement of a part. Rough being the operative word.

If your best measuring instrument is any type of caliper, don't be surprised when parts don't fit.

But my fancy high dollar digital reads to .0005" (.012 mm)

Yes it does. Doesn't make it any more accurate, just takes an inaccurate reading to one additional decimal place. This allows you to be very precisely incorrect.

 

[kaptain_zero]

Ah yes, there's nothing like the accuracy of an expensive micrometer, with it's frame firmly grasped in your hot sweaty hand, while you ignore the ratchet knob and just crank it down, til she stops.... on some freshly turned high density polyethylene ! :devil: Who needs those sissy bench micrometer holders anyway?!?!

As for the accuracy of calipers... it's "horses for courses". Sometimes you don't need better, sometimes a skilled user can even challenge a micrometer with one ( I used to be able to at times, but only with my old verniers that I had used for years and learned to compare to micrometers). The calipers I've bought in the past 10 years are nowhere near the same quality as my old pair of verniers.... but then again, with my eyesight... they tend to read about the same anyways.... <sigh>.

Regards

Christian

 

[precisionworks]

Who needs those sissy bench micrometer holders anyway?!?!

When I first started working in the mine repair shop, my boss suggested that I buy an older book on inspection & measurement. He disliked anything digital with a passion, & none of the machinists in the factory had a digital caliper or mic in their tool chest. FWIW, I bought a Starrett 123 soon after using his for an ID hole measurement.

Still have that book in "the library" in the shop. Published right after WWII, 1950 or so, and the best training manual I've ever seen on every aspect of measurement. Seems like it cost all of $10.

The one point it drives home is "gauging pressure", which needs to be a consistent and in the range of 1# to 2# (454-908 grams). Same pressure is used with a mic, caliper, bore gauge, etc. Incorrect or inconsistent pressure is probably the main cause of manual measurement error, and failure to centralize the instrument is number two.

 

[leeholaaho]

Correct :thumbsup:

PM your phone number, as I have a large tract of swampland in Arizona for sale, really cheap. Even has a view of the Pacific ocean.

:nana::eeksign:

Well the ones I got for 9 bucks work just as well as the 175 buck ones I use at work, same reading every time - maybe I got a great one

Give them a try - you can either be out 9 bucks or just take them back

I would not have posted it if I did not have them and think they were decent for casual use, you even get a spare battery

Read the reviews at the link and then tell me about swamp land - just because you pay 200 bucks for a 20 buck item does not mean it is any better

$9.99 when on sale http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-digital-caliper-47257.html

 

[wquiles]

Most everything I do is down to 0.001". I know it is an overkill for most everybody else, specially for internal parts/fit that nobody will ever see, but that is how I build everything - pretty much everything is fitted.

For OD, for quick measurements to 0.001" (90-95% of what I do) I use calipers. I started with regular digital calipers, then nicer digital calipers, and then a very nice dial caliper from Mitutoyo with carbide tipped in/out jaws:

But as nice as the Mitutoyo caliper was, in my humble opinion none had the repeatability I needed/wanted - they all seem too sensitive to pressure on the item you are trying to measure, so to me the repeatability was not there - too much flex for me.

Thanks to Barry I learned about the 50 division vernier master calipers (model No. 123) from Starrett, and I have never looked back ever since. It is the "best" caliper I have ever used, and I can consistently measure down to 0.001 every single time - no guess work. Due to their adjusting pressure wheel I get really consistent measurements - much more consistent than any other caliper I had before. Part of this consistency is simply due to the massive weight and construction of these master calipers - they are much stiffer than other calipers, and they stay in calibration (I regularly check mine against my 0.00005" Mitutoyo QuantuMike Micrometer and the master gauges they come with). I got various of them, in inch/inch, and in the very rare inch/metric, which gives me direct reading on both inch and metric. Yes, they are "slow" and need a consistent technique to read (directly from above and with good lighting), but once you nail the technique, it is easy - I actually take pleasure and pride in taking measurements with these "old school" measuring tools, which still to this day are "more" accurate than dial calipers (I think Barry had the link to the analysis that proves this objectively):

I know it is a little bit "sacrilegious" but I did cut my larger inch/metric model to a more "handy" size/weight, and this is the one I now use like 90%+ of the time:

I also have (thanks to Barry again) a special version from Mitutoyo that has much deeper jaws or "long jaws" for special cases where my Starretts can't take the measurement:

For OD, for really accurate measurements to less than 0.001" (usually trying to hit 0.0005") I get out the 0-1" or 1-2" Mitutoyo QuantuMike Micrometers since my Master Starrett Calipers can't accurately distinguish those smaller variations:

For measuring ID, like most I started using the calipers, but again they are not (in my humble opinion) not good enough and nor repeatable enough for measuring ID. Instead, thanks to Barry, I purchased a very nice set of inside telescoping gage set (usually aroung $100 for a good set - stay away from the cheap sets!) to take the measurement, and then read that value directly on my Starrett Master Caliper, or my QuantuMike Micrometer if I need more accuracy (again 90-95% of the time the Starrett Vernier caliper gives me enough). You can see one of these gauges being used here:

This is the exact set that I got:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=22507921&PMAKA=327-2795



Will

 

[precisionworks]

just because you pay 200 bucks for a 20 buck item does not mean it is any better

I'll pay you $20 for your $9.99 HF digital (and you get to keep the calipers) with only one condition:

That they pass the certification testing showing that they have been calibrated using standards and equipment which are traceable to NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology). My $200 Mitu's pass each time.

Take your calipers to whichever instrument testing lab you prefer (as long as they can issue an NIST cert), have them calibrated, take a photo of the cert & post it in this thread. I'll send $20 by PayPal or Money Order, whichever you prefer. It should look something like this sample cert:

My lab returns any instrument within 10 days of receipt, so you should be able to post a photo within a couple of weeks. The certs normally cost $17, so you'll make some money on this deal :twothumbs GageSite is one of the bigger cal labs, but there seems to be one or two in any large city: http://www.gagesite.com/caliper-calibration-p-721000-l-en.html

 

[precisionworks]

Published right after WWII, 1950 or so, and the best training manual I've ever seen on every aspect of measurement. Seems like it cost all of $10.

Inspection and Gaging, by Clifford Kennedy. I have the first edition, published in 1951, but the newest version is the 6th addition. $35 on Amazon for the new one, $5-$10 for an older version. The best book I've ever read on this subject.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0831111496/?tag=cpf0b6-20

 

[precisionworks]

I learned about the 50 division vernier master calipers (model No. 123) from Starrett ... which still to this day are "more" accurate than dial calipers

The vernier caliper with thumb wheel advance (Starrett 123 or equal) allows adjustment of the gauging pressure being applied to the part being measured. It excels during the measurement of inside diameters, when the depth to be measured does not exceed the length of the contact nibs. It also does very well for OD and length measurement, again because of the thumb wheel adjustment for gauging pressure.

Both digital calipers & dial calipers (of any cost, any brand, any age) lack this feature. A highly skilled operator can get repeatable readings from a digital or a dial, but only a small number of machinists are able to do this.

Most users of digital calipers don't believe this, but the test is easy. Open your set of gauge blocks, Class B or better with NIST cert. (If the blocks are Best of China brand, no cert, they are next to useless for this ... or for anything.) Using a certified gauge block set, in a shop that maintains a constant 68° F (20° C) temperature, and away from direct sunlight or drafts, pick at random a couple of dozen gauge blocks. Lay them marked side down on a granite flat or on a cast iron flat & let them temp stabilize for 20 minutes. Pick up one (using tweezers so your fingers don't change the size of the gauge block) measure it with the digital, record the reading, then turn the block over & record the block's marked dimension.

IF YOU SCORE CORRECTLY:

24 out of 24 (digital reading & guage block reading are identical) - you qualify for a job at any inspection department on earth.

18 out of 24 - much better than average

12 out of 24 - not bad. Half the readings are correct, half are wrong. Pretty much the results that most digital users get, even though they think that the readings are correct because measurements display to .0005" (.012 mm).

There's nothing inherently wrong with a digital (or dial) caliper except that it requires identical gauging pressure for each measurement. Without a thumb wheel to close the jaws, using exactly the same gauging pressure time after time after time is almost impossible. Again, pull out a certified guage block, but this time use the one marked 1.0000". Close it very lightly & watch it display 1.0015". Close the jaws with correct guaging pressure & watch it read 1.0000". Close it tightly and it displays .9995" or maybe .9990". And that assumes using a high quality caliper with a recent calibration cert (less than 12 months since last cal).

If you have the skill to use a digital (or dial) caliper, which means you can apply identical gauging pressure for every measurement, you should be proud - less than 10 people out of 100 can do this time after time, day after day. If you're like me & most everyone else, use a digital (or dial) to get into the ballpark. Then use something with the required accuracy to finish the job. As I said before, they allow the user to be very precisely incorrect. Fast - yes. Accurate - not very.