Corona Virus... the second wave

[turbodog]

Hospitals are in deficit here. Yesterday we were 9 beds short of ICU capacity. Not sure where they stashed those people... weather's been nice, maybe outside in the fresh air???

 

[raggie33]

is it safe to eat cold food? like a salad from a restaurant. i assume hot food would kill the covid 19 virus. but can i eat cold food?

 

[nbp]

It's exceptionally unlikely that you would get C19 from food unless someone was literally spitting in it and then you rubbed the slobber food on your face. Haha. The viral load that makes it onto a plate is vanishingly small and you swallow it quickly where it then ends up in the inhospitable stomach. Any viral particles have little to no opportunity to really latch onto a mucous membrane as they need to.

 

[raggie33]

It's exceptionally unlikely that you would get C19 from food unless someone was literally spitting in it and then you rubbed the slobber food on your face. Haha. The viral load that makes it onto a plate is vanishingly small and you swallow it quickly where it then ends up in the inhospitable stomach. Any viral particles have little to no opportunity to really latch onto a mucous membrane as they need to.

cool times been lean here so when i was surprised with a plate of barbq i was so hungry i ate it. but then i started to worry

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

Looking forward to Thanksgiving with family in California. Governor Newsom put a limit on three families, outside only, for a maximum of two hours. I'm so glad that the courts overturned all of his executive orders as none were based on existing law or were approved by the legislature. I don't know where he would have found a single cop to leave their family on Thanksgiving (probably ignoring the order themselves) to trespass on private property without a warrant to fine or arrest people for peaceably assembling in their own homes for a holiday celebration. I'll be thankful to be able to see friends and family. I don't think anyone should take that for granted this year. I hope you all stay safe as doing things outdoors no longer is an option with winter coming.

 

[bykfixer]

I saw that Newsome directive HoF and spit my coffee all over the place laughing. I was like "yeah, right, uh huh"……

I can see it now, drones flying over back yards "this is LA County unit xt437 calling in a gathering at 1313 mockingbird lane, our dna checks found that 4 families have been gathered for 3 hours and 22 minutes, and two persons have a temperature of 101.5 degrees, send in the SWAT, over"………

It's on the re-rise no doubt. If you do gather make sure to have very good air circulation in your home and do all the other stuff you've been doing. Run a ceiling fan or other fans.

 

[turbodog]

Moral of the story... eat outside!

 

[Poppy]

I don't know why they don't have directives regarding how many changes of air an hour, per so many cubic feet, and per so many occupants.

There has to be someone who can do the math. Years ago I wrote a short program for a friend of mine to use as a BTU calculator for air conditioning. If *I* could do that, certainly someone smarter than me can do a Covid load calculator.

When my daughter was running a fever, and we didn't know if it was covid, we kept a window open at one end of the house, and we had an exhaust fan in the window of her bedroom. She stayed in her bedroom which was negatively pressurized.

 

[raggie33]

If this don't end soon ill be scared ordering food online isn't cheap. Plus its so hard to wear a mask in winter my glasses fog up so much I can't see at all..

 

[PhotonWrangler]

I don't know why they don't have directives regarding how many changes of air an hour, per so many cubic feet, and per so many occupants.

There has to be someone who can do the math. Years ago I wrote a short program for a friend of mine to use as a BTU calculator for air conditioning. If *I* could do that, certainly someone smarter than me can do a Covid load calculator.

When my daughter was running a fever, and we didn't know if it was covid, we kept a window open at one end of the house, and we had an exhaust fan in the window of her bedroom. She stayed in her bedroom which was negatively pressurized.

This guy did some of the math. It depends on room size and how many people are in the room. Interestingly, CO2 levels can be used to determine whether a room is getting enough fresh air. Since the virus rides on exhaled air which contains CO2, the concentration of this gas is a useful analog for virus concentration. Outdoor CO2 levels are around 400 ppm, and a well ventilated room can have up to 800 ppm, according to the article.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

Ventilation and Air Quality for Reducing Transmission of COVID-19
Good ventilation and indoor air quality are important in reducing airborne exposure to viruses, including SARS-CoV-2 that causes COVID-19, as well as other disease vectors, chemicals, and odors. However, buildings vary in design, age, Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC) systems, and their ability to provide adequate ventilation and air filtration.
The American Society of Heating, Refrigerating, and Air-Conditioning Engineers
(ASHRAE) underscores the importance of ventilation and air filtration in reducing the transmission of COVID-19 through the position statement: "Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 through the air is sufficiently likely that airborne exposure to the virus should be controlled. Changes to building operations, including the operation of heating, ventilating, and air- conditioning (HVAC) systems, can reduce airborne exposures. Ventilation and filtration provided by heating, ventilating, and air-conditioning systems can reduce the airborne concentration of SARS-CoV-2 and thus the risk of transmission through the air. Unconditioned spaces can cause thermal stress to people that may be directly life threatening and that may also lower resistance to infection. In general, disabling of heating, ventilating, and air- conditioning systems is not a recommended measure to reduce the transmission of the virus." (Source: ASHRAE)
The main goal in reducing airborne transmission of viruses is to decrease the number of viral particles that accumulate in indoor air, by increasing the intake of outdoor air as much as possible and/or through effective air filtration. However, ventilation and air filtration are not effective alone – they are tools that must be used along with other measures such as health screenings, physical distancing, reducing building occupancy, frequent hand washing, wearing face coverings, and implementing appropriate cleaning and disinfection protocols. Additionally, when there are high levels of outside air pollution, such as during a wildfire smoke event, outside air intakes will need to be modified as necessary.
Because each building and its existing HVAC systems will be different, a professional engineer or HVAC specialist should be consulted to determine the best way to maximize the system's ventilation and air filtration capabilities for each specific room in the building. More detailed guidance can be found in CDC's Interim Guidance for Businesses and Employers Responding to COVID-19 (May 2020), and the ASHRAE Guidance for Re-Opening Buildings. Guidance for schools can be found in CDC's guidance for improving ventilation and increasing filtration inschools, the ASHRAE guidelines for schools and universities, and the ASHRAE guidance for the re-opening of schools.

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General Considerations

• Upgrade filters to MERV 13 if the system can handle the air resistance.
• Change filters as needed (clogged filters decrease HVAC operation, stress the fan
  motors, and decrease ability to improve indoor air quality). Visually inspect monthly.
• Inspect and clean entire systems. Make repairs quickly to prevent more serious issues.
• Reduce recirculation of air, increase/maximize outside air.
• Maintain humidity of 40-60%.
• Bring in outside air prior to occupancy and after, especially while cleaning and
  disinfection is occurring.
  Buildings with an Existing HVAC System

• Adjust the HVAC system to allow the maximum amount of outside air to enter the program space. Disable demand-controlled ventilation to bring in more outside air. Reduce recirculation of air.
• Clean unit ventilators, upgrade filters if possible, and adjust for maximum outside air.
• Visually check outside air dampers to make sure they are open.
• Assess units to determine if filters can be upgraded to MERV 13-14, or the highest MERV
  that will not significantly diminish airflow. Ensure that filters fit tight.
• For existing HVAC systems that cannot be upgraded, optimize as much as possible and
  consider supplementing with other measures (see below).
• Flush the building's indoor air two hours before and two hours after occupancy and
  always when cleaning and disinfecting.
• There is no special cleaning or disinfection for (HVAC) systems. Cleaning the
  system or filters with disinfectants is not recommended and not necessary.
• Clean and service HVAC unit on a regular schedule (check with HVAC specialist).
  Buildings that DO NOT have an Existing HVAC System
  Opening windows:

• Open windows and doors if it is safe and weather allows, and include more outside time during the day.
• Reduce occupancy in areas where outdoor ventilation cannot be increased to the optimal amount.

Inspect and maintain local exhaust ventilation in restrooms, kitchens, cooking areas, labs, etc. Increase exhaust ventilation from restrooms above code minimums. Work with building engineer or HVAC specialist to generate air movement that goes

from clean-to-less-clean air through positioning of air supply and exhaust air diffusers and/or dampers. • If there are ceiling fans, reverse the flow direction to draw air upward or turn them off.

• Use fans to increase the effectiveness of open windows. Position fans securely and carefully in or near windows so as not to induce potentially contaminated airflow

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directly from one person over another (strategic window fan placement in exhaust mode (e.g., blowing out of the window) can help draw fresh air into room via other open windows and doors without generating strong room air currents).
• Ventilate building or room 2 hours before and after occupancy.



• Use of fans for cooling is acceptable. They should blow away from people. Portable air filtration:

• Portable HEPA air cleaners can supplement ventilation and are most critical in rooms with poorer ventilation or in isolation areas.
• Unit air ratings are based on the square footage of the room and the Clean Air Delivery Rate (CADR). This guide provides a useful tool to calculate ventilation rates for indoor space(s): Harvard-CU Boulder Portable Air Cleaner Calculator for Schools.
• The equivalent of at least 5-6 air changes per hour is recommended.
• Consider the noise rating as some units can be quite loud. Consult with the
  manufacturer before purchasing. The Clean Air Delivery Rate is at the highest speed, which will be too loud for some environments. Choose one rated for a larger size room and run it on the low fan speed to reduce the noise, or use two for the room.
• Units should be pointed so they do not blow air across occupants (e.g., from one individual to others).
• Air filtration should be maximized in the space 2 hours before and after occupancy.
• Choose HEPA air cleaners certified by the California Air Resources Board to not emit
  dangerous levels of ozone.
• Do not use ozone generators, electrostatic precipitators and ionizers, or negative ion air
  purifiers because they can produce harmful by-products.
• Do not use personal air purifiers.
• HEPA filters should be replaced regularly as recommended by the manufacturer. The
  unit should be vacuumed and cleaned on a regular schedule – this should be done outside. Filter disinfection is not needed or recommended.
  Additional Considerations
  Restrooms:
  More COVID-19 Information and Resources

• If toilets have lids, instructions should be given to shut them during flushing.

Ensure restroom exhaust fans are functional and operate at full capacity 24/7. Install paper towels to dry hands, disconnect hand dryers (blowers). Ensure that face coverings are worn in the bathroom. Ensure that all drain traps are primed (water flow maintained regularly).

 

[Poppy]

This guy did some of the math. It depends on room size and how many people are in the room. Interestingly, CO2 levels can be used to determine whether a room is getting enough fresh air. Since the virus rides on exhaled air which contains CO2, the concentration of this gas is a useful analog for virus concentration. Outdoor CO2 levels are around 400 ppm, and a well ventilated room can have up to 800 ppm, according to the article.

PhotonWrangler,
Thanks so much for that link.

IMO, I think that more people will comply with "executive orders" if they become educated on the topic, IE they are informed WHY certain decisions are made. IE The science behind the decision.

I took this from the link you posted:
"Environmental engineers like me quantify how much outside air is getting into a building using a measure called the air exchange rate. This number quantifies the number of times the air inside a building gets replaced with air from outside in an hour.

While the exact rate depends on the number of people and size of the room, most experts consider roughly six air changes an hour to be good for a 10-foot-by-10-foot room with three to four people in it. In a pandemic this should be higher, with one study from 2016 suggesting that an exchange rate of nine times per hour reduced the spread of SARS, MERS and H1N1 in a Hong Kong hospital."

That means that ALL of the air in a 10' x 10' room with 3-4 people in it, should be flushed/replaced with fresh outside air every 10 minutes. If you have a Thanks giving dinner and 6-8 people are sitting around the dining table, you should replace the air in the room every 5 minutes! Just pushing it around with fans does nothing.

According to this article and the one posted by ChaunceyGardiner, if you can't get enough fresh, replacement air, then you have to filter it. If you have a ceiling fan, you should set it to draw air upwards, or better yet, turn it OFF.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

Thanks Poppy and Chauncey, this is what I took away from the articles also. Keeping an adequate air exchange rate during Thanksgiving dinner in colder climates is going to be a challenge. The average home HVAC system is probably not prepared for this. The best that can probably be done in these cases is to leave the furnace fan running continuously as well as any bathroom/kitchen fans that vent to the outside, and leave some windows cracked open. A better choice would be to postpone any large family gathering until it's safe.

 

[c_year]

after all this time ( it has almost been a year now right ?) im kinda losing hope ! i dont think we are ever going to get through this. i cant remember pre-corona times !

 

[idleprocess]

Keeping an adequate air exchange rate during Thanksgiving dinner in colder climates is going to be a challenge. The average home HVAC system is probably not prepared for this.

All the residential HVAC system designs I'm aware of in my region cannot achieve this at all - they only recirculate air within the home. This is good for efficiency - keep all that just-heated/cooled air within the structure - but terrible for air exchange.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

All the residential HVAC system designs I'm aware of in my region cannot achieve this at all - they only recirculate air within the home. This is good for efficiency - keep all that just-heated/cooled air within the structure - but terrible for air exchange.

So without extraordinary measures, Thanksgiving will likely be a superspreader event across the country.

In more optimistic news, MIT is developing an app that can allegedly sense the presence of Covid in asymptomatic people by using A/I to analyze the sound of their cough.

 

[turbodog]

So without extraordinary measures, Thanksgiving will likely be a superspreader event across the country.

...

Looks like it. My numbers are tracking high, very high. Usually the weekend cases dropoff... things are so on fire right now that even the 'low' weekend numbers are still 'high'.

Usually I can get a pretty good handle on the math behind case growth. Right now, it's growing significantly beyond what it was 2-4 weeks ago and the rate of growth is also increasing.

Shortest way to describe it is by calling it an exponential exponential curve right now, and that's not a typo.

 

[bigburly912]

Turbodog did you ever figure out what the "vaccines" actually were?

 

[turbodog]

Turbodog did you ever figure out what the "vaccines" actually were?

First I have thought about it... been preoccupied w/ election and a pinched nerve. I reached out to my source, the one present during the announcement. Will post back here if they can get an update.

 

[Lynx_Arc]

So without extraordinary measures, Thanksgiving will likely be a superspreader event across the country.

In more optimistic news, MIT is developing an app that can allegedly sense the presence of Covid in asymptomatic people by using A/I to analyze the sound of their cough.

Sounds odd to me, isn't coughing a symptom to begin with?