Coronavirus - II

[RedLED]

Sorry Poppy, I don't think I'm in their good graces around here, so I did not post it.

But go to YouTube, and type in Bakersfield Doctor's. That is what I did.

Trust me, Poppy, you will like it.

 

[Poppy]

Red,
Thanks for that.
Who knows, who is right?

Certainly there is the moral issue.
Euthanasia ... good or bad?
Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?

OTOH
The economy is in the tank, with few working.
Let this virus run its course... let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.
How long can the country survive, going into debt, or printing money?

Will there be a global response, where each country devalues their dollar the same? SO that it all remains the same but not backed by the same amount of Gold?

So lots of questions, and few answers.

It appears to me, that there will be a toe in the water, re-opening of businesses in the next couple of weeks, as a test to see how it goes. I hope it goes well. As we all know, that it will take a couple of weeks to see if things have gotten worse. OK, we are sure they will have gotten worse, but at that point it will have to be determined how much worse is acceptable, or if the re-opening will have to be scaled back.

 

[StarHalo]

Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?

let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.

"There are more important things than living...I don't wanna die. Nobody wants to die. But we gotta take some risks..." - Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick

I see a recurrent theme forming.

 

[PhotonWrangler]

I was at one of the big DIY stores a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised to see a whole palette of toilet paper on display in an aisle. No shortage there.

 

[Kestrel]

I was at one of the big DIY stores a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised to see a whole palette of toilet paper on display in an aisle.

What color was it?

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Let''s keep it non politicial here.

Bill'

.

 

[Poppy]

"There are more important things than living...I don't wanna die. Nobody wants to die. But we gotta take some risks..." - Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick

I see a recurrent theme forming.

Star,
You point that out, like you disagree.
Do you disagree?

We've been told that it will be 18 months for a vaccination, (the current flu bug alters such that the annual flu vaccine is changed twice each year), and that we can't open the economy totally safely until after the vaccination is in place.

With the above information, the educated mind, must know:
1. the economy can not be shut down for 18 months, and still have the populace survive.
2. should the government attempt to shutdown the economy for 18 months, the populace would revolt
3. Chaos...

Should the economy be opened with some risks, of an increased number of deaths, due to an increase in spread of the virus, OR should the economy be closed so that the police and fireman have to work as volunteers, and the postal workers, and the food delivery workers, and the Amazon workers, and the truck drivers, all have to work out of the goodness of their hearts, For AMERICA! Because 80-90% of America are out of work, and can't pay their bills? When the above are not paid and can't pay their bills, will they continue to work? WHY?

The Federal Government depends upon the income tax of the populace. What happens when the populace is out of work?

I could go on and on, but am too tired.

You're a smart guy... figure it out.

 

[StarHalo]

You're a smart guy... figure it out.

Here's what I'm figuring: Let's say a couple nights from now, you're here typing, comfortable in your quarantine, and your dad calls to tell you that his chest is very tight and it's getting hard to move. That's going to be an automatic visit to the ER, and the ER sure is busy. Later, the nurse mentions in passing that this may be a ventilator situation and that may present some difficulties. Later, the doctor needs to speak with you in private that it's a triage situation, and it comes down to someone who is quite old and infirm versus those who will surely recover better, and we have to work with what we are given, and it's unfortunately not going to be a ventilator situation, but there is a silver lining to this, a greater good that we can think about in this time..

I figure you would not want that doctor to share your sentiment about the strong surviving/a more vibrant population.

 

[nbp]

Unfortunately the majority who go on a ventilator do not survive, so if you get to that point, it's almost irrelevant whether you get one or not. So give them to whoever you want, but recognize that many are for lack of a better term, "wasted". This does not mean I don't care about those people or want them to die, it's just the sucky truth.

Here is something I would like to research as I don't know a ton about vaccines... if it turns out that recovery from this disease does not impart immunity (so far no hard evidence that it does), how does a vaccine even work for it? Or does it even work? Isn't the point of the vaccine to give you weakened forms of the virus so your body can develop antibodies to fight the real thing? If you don't develop an effective immune response from having the disease and successfully fighting it off, does a vaccine work any different?

If a vaccine will not prove to be effective, then we are waiting around for nothing. If recovering from the disease does not impart immunity then after all this mess we will come out of it in a situation where everyone could just get it again and where the only people now safe from COVID19 are the ones who died from it. That would really be the cherry on top.

So, I need to do some reading to understand that better.

 

[StarHalo]

Unfortunately the majority who go on a ventilator do not survive, so if you get to that point, it's almost irrelevant whether you get one or not. So give them to whoever you want, but recognize that many are for lack of a better term, "wasted". This does not mean I don't care about those people or want them to die, it's just the sucky truth.

Correct, so you would tell the doctor, "Well the ventilator is just a death sentence anyway, so don't bother"? You would want your children to tell the doctor that regarding you?

if it turns out that recovery from this disease does not impart immunity (so far no hard evidence that it does), how does a vaccine even work for it?

I would wager it's a viral load problem, so that once you're exposed, you are in fact immune to a limited quantity of the virus, but not a strong influx of it, as experienced by doctors and police. Which would mean the shot should work for you, but it won't completely work for the people who would have to try to heal or protect you..

 

[nbp]

Correct, so you would tell the doctor, "Well the ventilator is just a death sentence anyway, so don't bother"? You would want your children to tell the doctor that regarding you?



I would wager it's a viral load problem, so that once you're exposed, you are in fact immune to a limited quantity of the virus, but not a strong influx of it, as experienced by doctors and police. Which would mean the shot should work for you, but it won't completely work for the people who would have to try to heal or protect you..

Bro, I didn't just make that up, I'm just stating what many doctors have stated in interviews. That having unlimited ventilators isn't a panacea. It only saves those who are strong enough to survive, and many are not. I'm not saying they shouldn't ventilate the sick. But early on all the news was that we need warehouses full of ventilators to save lives, and ultimately that isn't the case.

Some say making decisions about healthcare resources is "playing God". But that's not true. Every time doctors administer medicications or procedures to save lives they are "playing God", and they are saving people from things that would have killed them if they were left to "nature". Whether it is appendicitis or a bypass surgery or chemo they are stepping in and saving people that "nature" would have killed. Maybe we should be thankful for all the thousands of lives they do save instead of tearing them apart for not being able to save everyone. People die; it sucks, man.

I've had 15 more years with my grandpa because a great cardiologist fixed his heart, and he has done so well. But 20 years ago grandma had a massive heart attack leaving her without oxygen too long to come back from and she had to be taken off life support when there was no hope left. My dad and his siblings and grandpa made that decision based on the fact that she wasn't coming back. The docs knew what the situation was and they gave the honest truth. Her death wasn't the fault of the paramedics or the ER docs or the ICU staff. They did their best. People die. Pretending everyone can be saved from everything isn't realistic or helpful.


I will try to do some vaccine reading and share anything I find that is relevant or helpful.

 

[nbp]

Ultimately though, we're just nerds on a flashlight forum, so despite all our chattering and speculation and ideas and questions, we can only really affect a fairly small bubble. And the government, and hospitals and doctors will make decisions, and we will just have to work with it.

Like Forrest Gump says, "And that's all I have to say about that." He was pretty wise, that Forrest. Not much for book learnin', but pretty wise.

 

[StarHalo]

Her death wasn't the fault of the paramedics or the ER docs or the ICU staff. They did their best. People die. Pretending everyone can be saved from everything isn't realistic or helpful.

hospitals and doctors will make decisions, and we will just have to work with it.

That's not what we're talking about though, what's on the table is maintaining the vitality of the people via passive extermination for the benefit of business interests. Specifically enabling hospital staff to not do their best, to accept a projected number of casualties of lesser peoples as inevitable and forge ahead to open the way for the strong.

Of course no one here is volunteering. "Weak" in this instance means "those other weak people," we're positing from an exalted position where our kind comes out on top and the losses occur to nearly-alien extraneous groups who just going by the numbers would have soon died anyway. No early adopters here for recommended experimental drugs or therapies, but of course it's crucial that there should be many other people who try these things, very important..

 

[nbp]

I'm not sure what you are looking for? You want people to come up here on a public hobbyist forum of strangers and say Heck yeah I'll pull the plug on grandma if it could save someone else! Come on, no one talks like that. But they may in their heart know that if grandma gets sick her odds are not good. I have grandparents in that situation. They are doing fairly well, but I am realistic in my understanding that a serious case of pneumonia could take them.

And I ask again, how are people supposed to die? I've watched plenty of older friends die slowly, painfully, expensively over the course of years of cancer, ALS, the complications of heart disease, diabetes, strokes, etc. No one can reasonably argue that that is a better way to go than a quick bout of pneumonia. It's just that quick ends seem more tragic while slow painful deaths allow people time to say goodbye and when they do finally die you are perhaps even relieved as they are no longer in pain. Doctors face a very real challenge in the face of limited resources: expend huge resources to try save the old and sick so they can go back to dying of all they things already wrong with them or expend the resources on those they think have the best odds of a long healthy life. Is there a right answer? NO!!! That's why hospitals have entire ethics boards to sit around and come up procedures for that and they are constantly changing. You can easily argue either side of it and if you're reasonable you can see valid points on both sides. I don't have the answers but I can see and understand both sides.

In any case, I guess we don't really know how anyone here would respond in a given situation until they are in it. You and I don't know exactly how we will react to a certain circumstance until we are in it either. We think we know, but we often don't know what we are really made of until the rubber hits the road.

 

[bykfixer]

I can only go from my experience with my dad who was placed on a ventalator for an issue unrelated. It was in about 2009 or so. But the folks in ICU said most do not usually survive because the machine is so dam good at what it does that the body of the person using it forgets how to. They slowly took it away from him, whatever that means. All I know is at 10am they told Mrs Fixer and I to leave the room and come back at 2:30. That they would know one way or the other by then.

At 10am that day a machine was keeping him alive. The doctor said it was a 50/50 chance. At supper time he was out of his coma and asking how long he had been asleep. It had been about a week. Prior to them putting him on the ventalator one night he was gasping for air and and telling me to go home, get his 357, come back and as he put it "put me down". As he was being knocked out via IV he was doing the pistol to the temple motion with his hand. He was pissed off that nobody would "put him down". Thank the stars he did not remember that when he woke because otherwise I might not be around to type this. lol.

He had been medivac'd to a hospital. Mrs Fixer drove my dad's van there and I followed the chopper as it flew along the interstate. That was pretty cool, but not because my pop was in dire straights from a bonk on the melon. Later on when he was settled in a room in ICU I sent Mrs Fixer home for the evening. What happened next forever changed me. My pop was bleeding on the brain and his blood thinner was causing it not to stop. He was on a fixed amount of liquid regiment due to a heart condition. They had to exceed that by several fold to thicken his blood. I asked what does that entail. The young doctor in training said "we have to drown him, to save him". Oh that's all. I will never forget what happened during the next few hours.

So for me, if I were in the situation my dad was in I cannot honestly say I would not want to be "put down" like he did. I never talked to him about it, just in case he would have shot me for not respecting his wishes. I do not believe Mrs Fixer would have me put out of my misery. But then again one never really knows. Afterall there were all those years I forgot our anniverssary and that one year I forgot her birthday.

Dam this corona virus is sure stirring up some old ghosts.

He passed away in his sleep one Sunday mid morning during his 10 o'clock nap. Complications resulting from "the sniffles" brought on by a head cold.

When we had to unplug my mom she was already gone. Her brain was moosh so she never knew. She just fell asleep after a surgery issue. Like NBP's grandma, lack of O2.
But my pop knew up until the coma med knocked him out and if that is what it's like with some covid-19 patients, it's a terrible thing. Yet there was no way I was going to "put him down". That's murder in the place called USA regardless of mine or his wishes. Some places allow it. All I could say is it would be up to the individual doing the suffering. Not me, nor some doctor.

 

[StarHalo]

I'm not sure what you are looking for?

I'm looking for someone to say "I would do anything for the survival of my loved ones, I would want others to help my loved ones survive, so I would not harbor a position where others' loved ones were sacrificed."

Is there a right answer? NO!!! That's why hospitals have entire ethics boards to sit around and come up procedures for that and they are constantly changing. You can easily argue either side of it and if you're reasonable you can see valid points on both sides. I don't have the answers but I can see and understand both sides.

Okay, so maybe I'm out of place. This might be another "many fine people on both sides" issue and I'm just not worldly enough to understand the modern approach to eugenics. I'd like to hear others' opinions on this.

 

[nbp]

Good grief. I'm so over this. I'll see you in the Radio thread.

 

[Greta]

I'm looking for someone to say "I would do anything for the survival of my loved ones, I would want others to help my loved ones survive, so I would not harbor a position where others' loved ones were sacrificed."



Okay, so maybe I'm out of place. This might be another "many fine people on both sides" issue and I'm just not worldly enough to understand the modern approach to eugenics. I'd like to hear others' opinions on this.

Ok... my opinion. What you're looking for is very selfish. You want YOUR needs filled before anyone else's so YOU do not feel guilty. Plain and simple.

Does this mean I don't love my loved ones as much as you do? Nope. Just means that I am more realistic as far as "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And I know my loved ones and what they would want. It's quite interesting how few people actually take the time to talk to their loved ones about these kind of things or really even to get to KNOW them. My parents, my kids, my husband... I know exactly what they want and what they would want me to do. And they know what I want too. And I'm very proud to say that none of us are selfish. Quality over quantity.

 

[StarHalo]

Does this mean I don't love my loved ones as much as you do? Nope. Just means that I am more realistic as far as "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And I know my loved ones and what they would want. It's quite interesting how few people actually take the time to talk to their loved ones about these kind of things or really even to get to KNOW them. My parents, my kids, my husband... I know exactly what they want and what they would want me to do. And they know what I want too. And I'm very proud to say that none of us are selfish. Quality over quantity.

I do support having your house in order, that's very important to know the wishes of your loved ones if it came to that grim situation. But what Poppy is proposing in post #22 is that it's in question if we should protect others' loved ones; that the criteria for not helping the ill should be if they are ill, so that the well can flourish. Herd immunity to improve the herd.

Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?

Let this virus run its course... let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.

Again, he is posing this as a question and not his concrete position, I am echoing that question and asking others to voice their opinion. Should we minimize the deaths?

 

[bigburly912]

How do you propose we minimize the deaths? Nobody on Earth, literally, has that solution yet.