Coronavirus - II

[Poppy]

Red,
Thanks for that.
Who knows, who is right?

Certainly there is the moral issue.
Euthanasia ... good or bad?
Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?

OTOH
The economy is in the tank, with few working.
Let this virus run its course... let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.
How long can the country survive, going into debt, or printing money?

Will there be a global response, where each country devalues their dollar the same? SO that it all remains the same but not backed by the same amount of Gold?

So lots of questions, and few answers.

It appears to me, that there will be a toe in the water, re-opening of businesses in the next couple of weeks, as a test to see how it goes. I hope it goes well. As we all know, that it will take a couple of weeks to see if things have gotten worse. OK, we are sure they will have gotten worse, but at that point it will have to be determined how much worse is acceptable, or if the re-opening will have to be scaled back.

First of all Star.

Don't quote me out of context again, or I will report you to the internet police.

I did NOT take a position on this matter, but simply stated that there are moral and economic questions that will need to be answered.

Secondly,
I never said that we should limit healthcare resources.
Thankfully, even in NYC its been reported that anyone who needed a ventilator, got one. Now that the curve has been bent, they were able to send 400 of them to Massachusetts. So, unless things get really worse, ventilators will not be an issue.

Thirdly,
I have had a discussion with my Dad about the value of life. He brought it up. He said that he led a full and happy life, and that if it comes down to it, and he had to go on a ventilator, and some kid needs it, he would give his up so that the kid had a better opportunity to survive.

Forth,
You are allowed to go to work and collect a pay check each week. In fact it is larger because of the over time you have put in. Ha... living high on the hog, eh? Nice new refrigerator you have there. You have not responded to the questions put forth regarding the economics of the situation. Nor did you respond to the question, are you willing to continue to work for free? What would your position be if you were not allowed to work, and unable to collect unemployment, either because you were not eligible, or the government ran out of money?

 

[Poppy]

<snip>


I will try to do some vaccine reading and share anything I find that is relevant or helpful.

Please do.

I have always believed that a naturally acquired immunity was better than an artificially acquired immunity (vaccination). I might have been wrong all the while, IDK.

With that said, and the fact that the experts do not know if those with naturally acquired antibodies are immune, I'd like an explanation of how vaccination would do a better job. Is it that they are banking on/hoping that a certain level of immunity exists?, and that they can reproduce it with a vaccine?

 

[lion504]

That having unlimited ventilators isn't a panacea. It only saves those who are strong enough to survive, and many are not. I'm not saying they shouldn't ventilate the sick.

Ventilators aren't working nearly as well as experts predicted. Growing number of medical opinions suggest COVID-19 patients should avoid ventilation for increased survival rates. That a CPAP machine or simple breathing mask is better. Perhaps we were oversold on ventilators. Not suggesting it was purposeful Or avoidable. You learn by doing.

 

[scout24]

Having loved ones know your wishes is invaluable. Having an on-paper health care proxy so there's no misunderstanding of your wishes is priceless. No fighting. No discussion. Maybe some hurt feelings, but it's spelled out so it's minimized. My Mother-in-law went from fully functioning and fine to in a coma and unresponsive within the space of a week, and 13 days after being taken to hospice she was gone. The week of testing showed nothing, she had just lost her mental faculties and "gone to sleep." She never wanted to live like that, didn't want extrordinary measures, just wanted to go. It was tough as hell to watch, some wanted other steps taken, but it was in black and white. It's never too early to get your house in order. My brother-in-law is six months into stage 4 lung cancer as we speak, and won't do the paperwork even after watching what his mother went through. I pray it's quick when it happens or it's going to be ugly.

BigBurly- The solution to minimize deaths was given- Stay the hell at home. Very few people are prepared for that emotionally, financially, or from a logistical standpoint. The number of people ignoring the directives and wandering the grocery stores or the Big Orange improvement store "just to get out of the house" is laughable.

 

[lion504]

Wasn't the (real) purpose of the Shelter in place / stay at home to minimize deaths that otherwise would have occurred "at the same time"? In other words, to Stretch out the numbers of deaths across the calendar as to avoid overwhelming hospitals when they lacked protocols, and PPE, and meds, etc. I think the "shelter-in-place" instruction is similar to the "masks don't help" instruction. My opinion is that these examples of Public medical guidance have a main, intended purpose (protect the system) distinct from, but related to, the advertised purpose (protect individuals). Absent a vaccine or effective treatment, the other solution is herd immunity since the virus likely isn't going away, and we can't out shelter it.

 

[bykfixer]

They won't know until they know Poppy. Remember, this is a new virus. So in labs they can make some things happen in a predictive manner sure. But each human has it's own set of rules going on called DNA so perhaps something everyone has in common can be discovered and that be what is the catalyst for an effective inoculation.

Now for a flu shot to work, it would seem logical that if in order for a person to have a positive impact there already be antibodies there would be a check for those anti bodies done before the shot is administered. But if I'm not mistaken a flu shot is given if you hand them $X without any prior tests for anything. Swab arm with alcohol soaked cotton ball, stab in needle, push plunger, done. Does that process just suppose the person has antibodies? Is there a Kinder/gentler shot for those with none and a deluxe model for those with antibodies? I dunno. Not trying to be snarky. Just curious.

I work with folks who speak of a time when the US government required adults to be vacinated for flu. They said it was Ford was in the White House. They told of how it killed a whole bunch of people, like as many as non vacinated folks. There is not much written about that as I look around. I just presume Uncle Sam deems that as not one of his finer moments so like crazy uncle Fred lets just not talk about that. I was able to read it was a version of the Spanish flu that comes back around every few decades in a form that wipes out a lot of people.

So as long as mother nature allows viruses to change enough to get past human immunity (ie keep finding new hosts) the world will always be caught flat footed from time to time. This is just another one of those times only this one is the worst one in a century.

 

[bykfixer]

Once the numbers in some places go from all those dead people to all those recovered people maybe this thing won't look so scarey to the average Schmoe. But as it stands right now a picture has been painted that a trip to the grocery store is a 50/50 proposition.

My state for example has a chart with a curve showing how many died. Another showing how many are sick. They say they do not have the resources to show how many have recovered. To be deemed recovered means show negative virus for two times. The tests are all being used to check for new cases since they are in short supply. Ok that makes sense. But they could show of X hospitalized XX were discharged. That would at least instill some hope in folks, right?

I conclude that unless they scare the beezlebub out of us we'll be like "pfft corona balona" and just keep acting normal. I say "we" as in the general society. I'd wager that nearly all if not all who read this and part 1 are doing their part to take this thing serious, even if it's just to keep the seasoned generation safe. I posed a question before about who knows somebody. Well recent studies causes me to wonder how many of us had it and did not know. I don't pose that to make light of this very serious situation. But just wonder if perhaps some have been exposed to a something or other they never knew they had been. Did some folks bodies have a head start after being exposed to SARS1? Did an exposure to the Spanish flu derivative cause seasoned folks bodies to say "I got you this time buckaroo" and over attack this one?

Time will tell. I do not want to write down a directive but did advise loved ones to DNR if they choose to. I think the key to that is to figure who would decide with the most logical perspective.

 

[Poppy]

Mr. Fixer,
Here is my limited understanding.

We are continually assaulted by microbes: viruses, bacteria, molds etc.

Our bodies respond to these assaults by creating specific to the microbe anti-bodies.
Once our body has done that, successfully, it remembers how to do it again. Therefore, the next time it is assaulted by the same microbe, or one that is very similar, it can ramp up its defenses more rapidly than it did the first time.

I always thought that once a person develops specific antibodies to a particular microbe, that they have life-time immunity.
Apparently I was wrong. Dr. Fauci has repeatedly stated that "we do not know if, or how long immunity exists after one recovers from this new virus."

Some people think that a flu shot is a treatment for the flu. It is not. It is a vaccination shot.
There are multiple strains of viruses that can cause flu symptoms. Each year, one strain or another is more prevalent, and the experts try to predict which one it will be, and promote the inoculation for vaccination for the stain which is their best guess. Some years they get it right, some years, not at all.

I don't know if there is a way to determine if immunity exists, other than by clinical trial.
1. Take a group of recovered people.
2. Expose them to the virus
3. Watch them for a few weeks and see if they become symptomatic, and if so, how symptomatic.

Antibodies is not the body's only defense to fighting invading organisms.
Many microbes are not very tolerant of temperature changes, and one of the body's defensive mechanisms, is to run a fever. Many will now say, "Don't fight a fever" until it is over 101 F.
Swelling of tissues, and coughing and sneezing are attempts of the body to remove some microbes.

At any rate, it would take time to determine if immunity exists, and even more time to determine how long it exists.
Time will tell.

 

[bykfixer]

I never figured antibodies lasted a lifetime. But did figure the body does remenber how to rebuild them when need be. It's why some strains of influenza won't adversely affect folks who had it before. Viruses though are like roaches. We zap one generation with D-Con but another generation adapts and continues. It's why they have to keep creating new versions of the flu shot I suppose.

I read a story about the two doctors in Bakersfield Ca. They used some numbers and threw out some theories. But so did the guy who said 2 million will die in the US. I don't put a lot of stock in Dr Fauchis theories either. Even when he predicts based on predictions based on a very short period of historical data. When he says it's very contagious, duh. We all know that. When he predicts this will linger like an influenza, sure that makes sense too. Afterall, humans do a great job at spreading disease.

Yet there was a time when nobody knew the affects of an atomic bomb until we blew one up. Shortly after (from historical perspective) some were used on a population of 2 cities and it was decades before we really knew the long term affects. Folks are still learning the affects of the twin towers situation. It's too soon to tell the big time affect of this corona virus. History may show it was way over blown. It may show we blew it in trying to slow the spread when herd immunity was the real answer. It may show hand sanitizer keeps us from developing things our bodies can modify to better fight it. It may show 5g played a role, or did not. It's just too soon to know.

With the resurgance of the Spanish flu every so often I definitely believe herd immunity does play a role in the survival ability of the human race itself. Generations never exposed to it before succumb to the "new flu", which is really the off spring of an old one. Meanwhile an older generation largely goes unaffected by it. But will this novel corona prove that false down the road? Too soon to tell right now. We should certainly know by 2025. (no I'm not advocating lock down until then.) I'm just saying that it will take years to really know the affects of this new super bug.

We know how to slow the spread. Lessons learned from the 1918 pandemic.

At 2pm the vp is slated to take part in a round table discussion at the mayo clinic. For some that should prove as exciting as watching paint dry. To others it may lend creedence to their state of mind being relieved or made worse. Egg heads on display. I'm up for it.

 

[wacbzz]

This might not gain any attention, but I'll deposit it here anyway...

The large company that I work for has decided to bring back many of the thousands that have been furloughed. What I've found in offering lots of these folks the opportunity to come back to work again, is that they simply don't want to come back because they're making too much in unemployment (the extra $600 above what their normal unemployment benefit is) but using the "I don't want to come back because I'm 'scared' still of the Coronavirus" excuse.

I had this response in multiple "off the record" text exchanges...

 

[scout24]

If the "extra" $600 stay-at-home carrot were removed upon offering furloughed employees their jobs back, I'll bet more would show up. It needs to be tapered off...

 

[StarHalo]

Don't quote me out of context again, or I will report you to the internet police...I did NOT take a position on this matter...You have not responded to the questions put forth

Asiding the fact that you're not positing an opinion but are asking for mine, post #39 states that you are only posing a question and not your position, post #36 states my position.

What I've found in offering lots of these folks the opportunity to come back to work again, is that they simply don't want to come back because they're making too much in unemployment.

Good thing those aren't Amazon employees, or there'd already be someone else at their desks. Anyone who doesn't want to be an essential worker doesn't have to, but there are others who want to..

 

[bykfixer]

A lot of that going around wacbzz. Heck when they began talking about the extra $600 I called my boss and asked for a furlough. She laughed and said "yeah right, you aint going anywhere".

I did get an email from a large government agency congratulating those of us in my industry for complying with guidelines. "thanks to your dilligence you have earned the priveledge to remain employed" it said. Call me crazy but I felt a bit slighted by that.

 

[Cree XHP 70 LED]

My responses are on auto-delete because I speak the truth. LOL

 

[SCEMan]

And I know my loved ones and what they would want. It's quite interesting how few people actually take the time to talk to their loved ones about these kind of things or really even to get to KNOW them. My parents, my kids, my husband... I know exactly what they want and what they would want me to do. And they know what I want too. And I'm very proud to say that none of us are selfish. Quality over quantity.

Well said. I went through this exact process several years ago. When the time came, and my parents were on ventilators there was no doubt in my mind what their wishes were and the hospice care they received was a blessing.

 

[SCEMan]

We may soon have a better picture on how the "herd immunity" argument plays out...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eden-anders-tegnell-herd-immunity/3031536001/

 

[scout24]

My responses are on auto-delete because I speak the truth. LOL

Your responses are not on auto delete, an Admin asked in the OP to keep politics out of the thread this go-round and has suggested repeatedly that the Underground is the place for sich discussion. Please see Empath's OP if clarification is needed. Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Poppy]

If the "extra" $600 stay-at-home carrot were removed upon offering furloughed employees their jobs back, I'll bet more would show up. It needs to be tapered off...

There was a Federal Legislator (I didn't catch whether he was a Senator, or Congressman) but he stated, in front of the media camera, that he voted against the bill, because he didn't want to give the people in his region an incentive to NOT return to work. Many or most in his district didn't make $600 a week.

 

[Hooked on Fenix]

Apparently, women are getting sick less than men from corona virus. In the U.S., they are beginning a clinical trial for men with corona virus to see if estrogen and progesterone can be used to treat corona virus. You heard that right. They are giving men the female hormone estrogen or progesterone to try to treat this virus. So many jokes popping into my head right now. I can just imagine the headlines now:
Good news: effective treatment found. Bad news: It turns men into women.
Transgender women join lupus patients in medication shortage.
Side effects may include breast growth, erectile dysfunction, mood swings, hot flashes, muscle loss, and family and friends questioning your sanity.

I guess this is good news for women if it works. They'll be safer to work and the men who refuse treatment might be stuck at home cleaning the house and taking care of the kids.

 

[Cree XHP 70 LED]

Your responses are not on auto delete, an Admin asked in the OP to keep politics out of the thread this go-round and has suggested repeatedly that the Underground is the place for sich discussion. Please see Empath's OP if clarification is needed. Thanks for your understanding.

On the version 1 yes I was political. My last post here was not political.

I simply stated that I personally do not care if I get coronavirus and die from it.

I see nothing political in that statement.