Cost of Fuel and Price Gouging

picard

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I am using the car only if necessary for work or buying grocery. Otherwise, I ride my bike to errands. I have to make the remaining gas last as long as possible.

Katrina is hurting everyone else in the world. The oil company are squeezing everyone for their blood & soul.
 

Chris_Medico

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Sep 23, 2004
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Central, North Carolina
I know this is painful for everyone. We each should strive to use less energy (gas, electricity, etc)

I don't just preach it, I do it. Here is how..

My main vehicle is a Jetta TDI. 53mpg on the highway. I've got most of the equipment to start making biodiesel. Just a couple more bits to go and I'll start recycling fryer oil and using it in the TDI. My second vehicle is a F350 Diesel. I get 18mpg with it. Its only driven a few times a month to keep it lubed up and to keep me from putting full trash cans in my car. We have no garbage pickup here in the county. I fill it up every couple of months whether it needs it or not.

My home is 1650 sq/ft and I had it built with 6" thick walls and all the insulation that could reasonably be put in the right places. Result? The hottest month so far this year my power bill was only $82. My closest neighbor? $144 (very similar house). When I install the solar panels for the hot water it will drop the power bill another $25 a month. It wasn't always this way. Last summer my power bill was $125 in July and it was a cooler July than this year. To start I had my house tested for air leakage. Even though the house is new it was very leaky. The HVAC ductwork also leaked significantly. I sealed it all up. It cost about $50 in materials. The next pressure test was much improved. The power bill dropped to show the changes worked. The homes air turnover is fine even without an air exchanger.

I know this thread is about price gouging. Why I mention other energy is because if you could trim $50 off your power bill (or other energy bill) by making very simple (and inexpensive) changes it would free up more $$ to spend on gas. I bet most people are spending much more on energy than they have to. Look around and don't be afraid to be creative. I challenge each of you to go after some cash you are throwing away around the house. Consider solar hot water. Your state may give you a very nice lump of cash when you file your taxes. These things won't make the high gas prices any more pleasant but it will make them less relevant. AND we will all be better for it.

Chris
 

Brock

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First, Chris very well said. We have done many similar things in our home. Our house is large; I hate to admit it, but about 4300 sq. feet, three stories, and even worse we have an indoor pool (16,000 gallons) in the lowest level. All of our outside walls are 8 inch and urethane foamed insulation. Lots of little energy savers all around our house. Our gas and electric bill last month was $89; last winter was the first time we ever topped $200. Our neighbor on one side has a 3500 sq. ft house and last month his bill was $240 and the other side is an older 2800 sq. foot and his bill was just over $200.

When we built we did spend quite a bit extra on insulation and good windows with storms and reduced the sq. footage of glass all around to reduce heat loss. We also have an air to air heat recovery ventilator. I am glad we made those decisions and bit the bullet for the cost then. I am sure they have paid for themselves already and will for a long time to come. It just amazes me that things like what we did aren't common practice, but they aren't.

We also put in "storm lashings" I had never heard of them, but it ties your walls to the footings and the roof to the walls. While we don't get Hurricane's up here we get tornado's and again I thought I would pay the extra $ to hopefully keep my roof on and walls intact.

As was said earlier, my point is you can still live and be comfortable while still conserving or being efficient.
 
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Brock

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cy said:
well I asked, what does this do to our capacity to produce fuel nationally. his reply was squat... for instance refineries in Texas were running aprox. at 80% capacity. Now they've ramped up to 90% capacity.

Even if this is true, I know for a fact that we got no fuel up here in WI for three days. And I know for a fact the fuel trucking companies have to go a LOT farther to get the fuel and paying more for it when they do get it. Are you saying this didn't really happen? I can assure you it did. Maybe it is a conspiracy and they stopped the pipe lines to drive up the cost, but I some how doubt it.

remember these are multi-national companies. they have contingency plans in place. they can pull up slack at a drop of the hat.

Again could be true, but at the same time the rest of the US could easily pick up the slack for the lack of power in CA when they have rolling blackouts, but do we, nope. It is all about having the commodity in demand where it is needed or paying to get it there, and right now gasoline isn't where it needs to be.

I also am lucky or forwarding thinking enough to buy a car that gets good mileage. I filled up our van (23 mpg lifetime) and the Jetta wagon (52 mpg lifetime). We will also reduce how often we run in to town and combine trips. I would be surprised if we had to fill either the rest of this month.

I agree with Darell, mean people suck…

Oh I should add in our state you can't change the $ of gas more then once in a 24 hour period. I thought that was more wide spread then just here.
 

83Venture

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I wonder how much of the money that people would have sent in to help the victims is being syphoned off to the gas pumps/profit.
 

Beretta1526

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Brock said:
...I should add in our state you can't change the $ of gas more then once in a 24 hour period. I thought that was more wide spread then just here.

This is something worth looking into, because I've seen places change the price 3 times in one day.
 

cy

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Brock said:
Even if this is true, I know for a fact that we got no fuel up here in WI for three days. And I know for a fact the fuel trucking companies have to go a LOT farther to get the fuel and paying more for it when they do get it. Are you saying this didn't really happen? I can assure you it did. Maybe it is a conspiracy and they stopped the pipe lines to drive up the cost, but I some how doubt it.


Again could be true, but at the same time the rest of the US could easily pick up the slack for the lack of power in CA when they have rolling blackouts, but do we, nope. It is all about having the commodity in demand where it is needed or paying to get it there, and right now gasoline isn't where it needs to be.

at no time did I say there was no local shortages! if everyone simply ran out and fill up all their tanks (like most everyone did) that alone will creat a shortage.

with only 5-6 major player owning 90% of all refineries. there is for pratical purposes a monoply, which don't require conspiricies to raise prices.

best example is when a single entity owns 60% of all filling stations in town. when that entity decides to raise prices, ALL their station's prices will go up at same time. Monopolies needs no coordintation to raise prices at will.

what I stated was you and I have no idea what percentage of capacity refineries are normally running at. My expert stated actual effect of refineries going down would be easily negated by refineries still on line simply ramping capacity.

And that nearby refineries in Texas, which would be closest to service fuel needs close by. further according to my expert those Texas plants normally run at 80% capacity. and that it would take very little effort to raise production to say 90% to take care of shortfall.

what does Wi needs have to do with local La needs? logic dictates backup facitlies closest by would be the ones short on fuel.

it would be folly to have plants running at full capacity and have no contigency plans in place to handle unexpected plant shut-downs.

what kind of management would NOT have emergency backup plans in place?

this GREED plain and simple, taking advantage of the situation in any language is GOUGING!
 
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One of the stations here had 2.69 diesel. The one I normally fill at was 2.75 yesterday (I didn't pass that way today).

I'm trying to do my part. I accelerate evenly, cruise control often and NEVER exceed 65mph. I did 60 most of the time today. And amazingly, I wasn't the only one doing it!
 

Gransee

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Prices are currently $2.99/g for the cheap stuff here in Mesa, AZ. I saw some lines yesterday but none today. The lines were a result of panic basically. We decided to wait and get gas for our car (a hybrid) next week. No use being part of the problem. Although I have about 1/4 of a tank left, it is plenty for us to get everything we need done until next week. We use our car to also move some of our flashlight parts around to various valley contractors.

Personally, I don't think there is any conspiracy behind the gas prices. Sure, it is unpleasant to see the prices go up, but it is quite understandable. Even at $3/gallon it is still cheaper, adjusted for inflation, then it was 40 years ago. This is mostly a result of increased efficiencies in the refining and distribution. And this inspite of the challenge of producing all the many, "botique" blends required by various regions.

I was talking to a british friend 2 week ago about our fuel costs here in the US. As you know they already pay the equievelent of over $6-7/gallon in most of europe. He said one thing that surprises visitors from europe is all the large vehicles on the road. The 2 ton SUVs/etc are just not that common in european countries. In polite terms, we have a, "love affair" with our 200+ HP V8s. In not so polite terms it is a simple addiction.

I understand studies with cocain addicts have shown that if the price of the drug goes up gradually, the addicts find a way to pay for the increased cost. Their consumption of the drug does not go down with the increase in price, in fact it sometimes actually goes up because they become increasingly anxious. However, if the price suddenly rises, a larger percentage actually considers finding a cure for their habit. That is a good thing.

And lest you think we don't have an addiction, remember that the average fuel economy of new cars being sold in america has actually gotten worse in the past 10 years. This is not because there is a shortage of small, fuel efficient cars to buy.

I was watching an interview with Thomas Friedman last week. He talked about how there is a direct relationship between the cost of oil and how willing certain arab countries are to pursue reform, human rights, etc. When the cost of oil goes down, they are more willing to talk about free elections, etc. Why should we pay for both sides of the war on terror? On the one hand, our taxes pay for our great military and on the other hand our excessive fuel consumption pays for ak-47s and suicide bombers used against our boys. Doesn't that seem crazy to anyone? Now, I am not advocating leaving iraqi, we have a job to finish there. And I not advocating cutting spending on our military. I am for a strong military. I am advocating each and every citizen of this great country doing their part to use less fossil fuels. No need to revert to the stone age. Find alternatives. Sometimes all it takes to move in the right direction is a different perspective.

I agree with Thomas Freidman and others who purpose a much larger tax on gasoline. The tax would be moved from other areas so the average citizen pays the same amount of total tax as before. The difference being a person could give themselves a tax "discount" by choosing to conserve gasoline. For example, (and some people will flip when they read this) $2-3 worth of tax per gallon. This would bring the price suddenly to over $5-6. Of course, this won't happen. Any politician who proposed it would not be elected. It is like telling the obese that there is going to be a tax on donuts and french fries.

Fossil fuels are not forever of course. We can switch gradually to alternatives or be forced to do so in a much more painful way. There are things each and every one of us can do today to make a difference. It doesn't have to be huge and it doesn't have to happen overnight.

Peter
 
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TrueBlue

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Here is a question I hope someone can answer. This is from my memory and could very well be wrong.

I'm in California. Because of stricter California pollution laws we are not allowed to use fuel other states use. We are required to use less efficient and more expensive gas than the other states. We are completely independent of the rest of the US gas situation. So when a CA gas refinery is shut down for 'maintenance' the price of our states fuel is pumped up for the whole state. When this state has a fuel problem the law prevents any other state from helping us. We are always squeezed for more profits. That is another story. CA has no direct link to the rest of the states when it comes to gasoline. Since we are completely independent on fuel from the rest of the states then why did CA gas jump up higher than the rest of the nation? In reverse, we currently have no problem with our refineries and we should be enjoying lower gas prices then the rest of the nation. But CA gas prices were bumped up higher then the rest of the nation. We should have lower prices then any other state.

Today I put in gas at a premium gas station that was selling the gas cheaper than the convenience store two blocks away. The price at the premium Chevron gas station was $3.01, 3.15 and 3.29.

Since CA is independent of the rest of the country then shouldn't CA gas have stayed at the same level? Or is this a good excuse for gas companies to squeeze more profits?
 

Brock

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at no time did I say there was no local shortages! if everyone simply ran out and fill up all their tanks (like most everyone did) that alone will creat a shortage.

I would agree that this add to the problem, but the larger problem was none of the local suppliers had ANY fuel to sell since the pipeline in the Midwest had no fuel, or at least not enough by the time it got this far north. Again, unless this is all a conspiracy and they stopped putting the fuel in the pipeline just to increase the price, again I doubt it.

what does Wi needs have to do with local La needs? logic dictates backup facitlies closest by would be the ones short on fuel.

Yes logic would dictate that, but because most of the fuel we get comes from the golf though that Midwest pipeline and all that fuel is being used in the south, my guess is that is why there isn't any by the time it gets up here. Think of it like a river and we are at the end, if everyone up stream uses the all the water, there is none by the time it gets here.

it would be folly to have plants running at full capacity and have no contigency plans in place to handle unexpected plant shut-downs.

Agreed, but let's look at where you work. If they suddenly said, oh by the way we need to make 20% more product or run 20% more load and YOU need to stay an extra 20% in time. This won't cost them more? If the extra 20% didn't cost any more they would do it all the time. I am sure there are LOTS of refinery workers getting paid overtime right now, if it is 20% more I would bet it is costing 30% or time and a half at a minimum to run them extra. Or are you saying the workers should do the extra work and overtime for free? And you neighbor, I am sure he is going to be doing charity work now correct? I bet he gets paid a fine sum and who pick up that tab? I would guess it is part of the price hike, correct?

What kind of management would NOT have emergency backup plans in place?

A bad one, but again it cost more to work outside the norm in any business, right? What about the fuel truck drivers that have to drive twice as far to get the fuel we are asking for? Again a lot more man hours and cost, and that cost gets passed on, as it would be in any business.

Again I am not saying they aren't overdoing this. If I had to guess I would say an increase of $.70 maybe $.60 is legit and the last $.10 is greed. But I can't believe it would be more then 50% greed.
 

C4LED

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Recent Prices I saw in VA:

Filled up on Mon. (thinking it would get bad) - $2.69

Thurs: $2.99
Fri: $3.16
Today (09/03): $3.69
 

Darell

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TrueBlue said:
Since CA is independent of the rest of the country then shouldn't CA gas have stayed at the same level? Or is this a good excuse for gas companies to squeeze more profits?
No matter where the fuel is sold, it all starts off the same way, and the crude components come from the same places. The only differences in gasoline are the additives, as far as I understand.
 

James S

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spent $10 on a quarter tank today, local place had regular for $2.899 which was better than it was 36 hours ago the last time I drove past. So perhaps the trucks are getting through again and the panic is going down...

Or perhaps not, I dont know :)
 

Kilted

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http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=18765

Last time I checked there were 184 replies, this one hit a nerve. My only thoughts I can add have been already said, use less fuel, use alternate fuels, and educate, educate, educate.

As far as automobile manufactures go, the only thing they will listen to is the sound of your check book snapping shut. ASK for what you want and if you do not find it, make a point of walking and letting them know your displeasure.

Silence is not Golden here.

I'm not sure that price caps are the answer in the long run. There is some thing to be said for letting the prices raise to a level of pain that will reduce demand. But, then I have two brothers who are taking care of our 86 year old mother driving haly way across the state. There are no black and white answers.

=D~~ Kilted


The Real Gas Gougers

How convenient for the oil industry that Hurricane Katrina hit just before the traditional Labor Day-weekend hike in gas prices. Now, instead of having to fake up some absolutely absurd excuse for jacking up gas prices, the industry can try and dupe Americans into thinking that they are suddenly paying $3.25 a gallon because of a storm.

The oil industry's response to Katrina has provided a reminder of why it is so exceptionally profitable.

Even before a start had been made on assessing the damage caused by the tropical storm, energy corporations were cashing in. And every indication is that they plan to continue doing so--perhaps taking prices over the $4-a-gallon mark, according to James DiGeorgia, editor and publisher of the Gold & Energy Advisor and author of The Global War for Oil.

No one debates the fact that the hurricane has done significant damage to oil rigs, refineries and delivery systems along the Gulf Coast, a region that accounts for roughly 10 percent of US refining capacity. But roughly 90 percent of US refining capacity remains fully functional and, it should not be forgotten, the US has not stopped importing oil.

Additionally, the Bush Administration jumped to the aid of the oil companies long before the relief effort was in full swing.

The Environmental Protection Agency suspended summertime antipollution measures, lifting the requirement that refiners lower fuel volatility and cut sulphur levels. At the same time, the Administration moved to release oil from the nation's Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which was created more than three decades ago with the precise purpose of boosting fuel supplies in order to keep a lid on rising wholesale gasoline prices in a circumstance such as the one that has now developed.

Despite all the aid they are getting, however, the oil companies are not giving anything back. There is no evidence of a willingness on the part of these highly profitable corporations to sacrifice in a time of national emergency.

Make no mistake: These corporations should be able to absorb a hit. Over the past year and a half, the four largest oil companies--ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco, Royal Dutch/Shell Group and BP Group PLC--have pocketed close to $100 billion in profits. During the first quarter of 2005 alone, those firms pulled in a cool $23 billion.

But instead of sharing the pain, they appear to be moving to squeeze every cent they can out of the crisis.

With oil-industry friends in charge of the White House and the Congress, don't expect much of a response from the federal level.

But this is one case where states have an ability to intervene.

Three years ago, in a move to protect against gouging, Hawaiian officials enacted legislation that allows state officials to set price caps on gasoline.

Now, as gas prices are skyrocketing in the aftermath of Katrina, a California legislator wants to give a state agency broad authority to regulate the cost of fuel.

State Senator Joe Dunn, a Democrat, has introduced a constitutional amendment that would allow the state Public Utilities Commission to require mandatory fuel reserves, set profit margins for oil and gas companies and order the construction of new pipelines. The measure would also bar agreements between energy corporations to reduce competition.

Dunn's amendment would allow the California Public Utilities Commission to cap prices, although the senator told reporters that step would only be taken as a last resort.

Dunn brings a refreshing bluntness to the discourse. Speaking to the Associated Press, he accused the oil industry of creating a dysfunctional market in California, in which competition is essentially eliminated. That, he explained, is why states need to step up their use of regulatory powers.

"Two years ago, when gasoline cost $2 a gallon, the industry said to give it time and prices would settle down. Now, we're seeing $3 a gallon," Dunn said. "People in California are no longer believing the excuses of the industry. If they can't fix their market behavior, we'll fix it for them."

It is certainly true that consumers should take steps to reduce their use of petroleum products--not just because of a storm in the Gulf of Mexico but because of the human, economic and environmental tolls this country's reliance on imported petroleum products has imposed. But petroleum companies should sacrifice as well. And if they are not willing to do so, states should remind them of their patriotic duty.
 

cy

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Brock said:
Are you saying this didn't really happen? I can assure you it did. Maybe it is a conspiracy and they stopped the pipe lines to drive up the cost, but I some how doubt it.
what does it take to get message across. with only 5-6 major players owning 90% of all refinery capacity. it's a monopoly!

monopolies don't need conspriracies to change prices at will. when the same company owns the refineries in multiples cities, price increases are uniform acoss states.

and yes say thanks to the Bush administration for allowing this consolidation to happen. It's Standard Oil company all over again. owning the entire chain from production to refinery to filling station.

Again could be true, but at the same time the rest of the US could easily pick up the slack for the lack of power in CA when they have rolling blackouts, but do we, nope. It is all about having the commodity in demand where it is needed or paying to get it there, and right now gasoline isn't where it needs to be.
no question local shortages are real, probably caused by everyone running out and filling their tanks all at the same time. this is not lost on the oil companies. they are taking advantage of situation by raising prices imediately. their cost has no changed, but have multiplied prices.

small wonder refinery net profits are 10X+ normal amounts. This is gouging!

I also am lucky or forwarding thinking enough to buy a car that gets good mileage. I filled up our van (23 mpg lifetime) and the Jetta wagon (52 mpg lifetime). We will also reduce how often we run in to town and combine trips. I would be surprised if we had to fill either the rest of this month.

must admit I'm envious of your forward thinking!
 

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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It must be noted that at least here in Texas it hasn't gone completely crazy.

And while out today trying to get a new room air conditioner for my Dad, I still drove everywhere I went at 60 or less (which gets about 23mpg in my '03 Ram 2500 Cummins)

I wish at least one TDI car lived here!!!
 

ikendu

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Kilted said:
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=18765

...petroleum companies should sacrifice as well. And if they are not willing to do so, states should remind them of their patriotic duty.

Ha! I almost burst out laughing when I read this. I'm afraid that "patriotic duty" is coin that oil companies do not recognize (or really any companies). There might be a few, but the nature of free market capitalism is that everything is driven to the lowest possible cost in order to create the highest possible profit. Don't get me wrong, I've been in the capitalism game all my life and there is nothing wrong with profits.

It's just that the profit philosophy takes very little notice of human need or patriotism. The same emotions that drive capitalism to great levels of success are the same ones that produce price gouging in the face of a disaster ...that would be human emotions (like greed).
 

Darell

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Yooohoooo! Guys... while I *completely understand* that politics is a big part of the mess here, let's please try a bit harder to avoid the partisan fault-finding. Thanks!

:wave:
 
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