Minjin
Flashlight Enthusiast
Darell said:
Darrel, I agree with you more than you think. I just can't let you have it too easy...
Mark
Cost of Fuel and Price Gouging
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Darrel, I agree with you more than you think. I just can't let you have it too easy...
Mark
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
Darell said:
Yeah, my son called today from Tennessee to warn me that they are expecting shortages and that the prices were going up. I assured him I had a full tank in my pick-up and would fill up the tank on my Prius. Then I said that should take care of me for a month or two.
Silence.
When you only travel a few miles every few days AND get great milage it's amazing how little the price of gas matters.
Daniel
back when we had the first big gas shortage(1975?), i worked for jcpenney autocenter. service station across from us was closed up. noticed our delivery truck dropping gas in their tanks. when he dropped our gas, i asked why was he dropping gas in tanks of closed station. he said, "we have so much gas that we don't know what to do with it!" "we are filling the tanks of all closed stations in town." (springfield, oh, pop. 70k) "the shortage was created". skip to now. when gas 1st went above $2/gal., an opec spokesperson was on tv interview. he said, "we know U.S. is having a problem and agree to produce 1 million barrels a day more at reduced cost for you" "there were NO takers" , "it is your own speculators that are driving up the price". i know that oil won't last forever, however the "buzz" does. my small rant on manipulation.
idleprocess
Flashaholic
Another couple of reasons why prices go up instantly:
Also ... what would those complaining about the high price of fual have have "done?" Price controls? That will just bankrupt the industry - they buy most of their feedstocks from the world market. Subsidise the price at the pump? We do that already... and subsidies cost more on the backend than they save on the frontend; nevermind the market-distorting effects.
Darell has it right - if paying so much for fuel is bothersome, reduce or eliminate your consumption. Action on your part may be required.
Personally, I'm going to reduce my driving as much as possible the next few weeks. Given the cost of fuel for a round-trip vs a transit pass, I'd start riding the train/bus if my work schedule allowed it. There are stores & retsaurants not too far away that I can walk to insetad of driving. If I had a bike, I could get some needed exercise and save myself some money by biking to the grocery store.
Also on the subject of "gouging," I fully expect to hear some complaining about "price-gouging" on commodities in recovery areas. As much as people hate it, it goes on and it helps speed recovery. First of all, it strongly encourages casual operators to bring in needed commodities. Second, it rations supplies in order of need - those able to pay premiums are typically businesses, and the faster they return to normal operation, the faster the local economy picks up and prices return to normal.
Example: generators. What benefits the community as a whole the greatest - scattered private citizens getting valuable generators to run household appliances, or a grocery store getting generators so they can refridgerate food ... or gas stations, so they can operate pumps ... or the local government, so they can coordinate recovery ... or the phone company, so they can restore communications?
- Even if you (the retail seller) bought cheap and don't raise your prices up like everyone else, you're going to face tough price pressure next time you buy at a high price and might go under since the price spike will force everyone to tighten belts. Your competitors will have done it already, so you might as well up your margins to deal with the lean times to come. Odds are you're going make very little or lose money during the early phases of the spike...
- Rationing - nothing sets consumption priorities like pricing. The free market rations more effectively than the government ever could, and those willing to pay the higher prices obviously need it.
Also ... what would those complaining about the high price of fual have have "done?" Price controls? That will just bankrupt the industry - they buy most of their feedstocks from the world market. Subsidise the price at the pump? We do that already... and subsidies cost more on the backend than they save on the frontend; nevermind the market-distorting effects.
Darell has it right - if paying so much for fuel is bothersome, reduce or eliminate your consumption. Action on your part may be required.
Personally, I'm going to reduce my driving as much as possible the next few weeks. Given the cost of fuel for a round-trip vs a transit pass, I'd start riding the train/bus if my work schedule allowed it. There are stores & retsaurants not too far away that I can walk to insetad of driving. If I had a bike, I could get some needed exercise and save myself some money by biking to the grocery store.
Also on the subject of "gouging," I fully expect to hear some complaining about "price-gouging" on commodities in recovery areas. As much as people hate it, it goes on and it helps speed recovery. First of all, it strongly encourages casual operators to bring in needed commodities. Second, it rations supplies in order of need - those able to pay premiums are typically businesses, and the faster they return to normal operation, the faster the local economy picks up and prices return to normal.
Example: generators. What benefits the community as a whole the greatest - scattered private citizens getting valuable generators to run household appliances, or a grocery store getting generators so they can refridgerate food ... or gas stations, so they can operate pumps ... or the local government, so they can coordinate recovery ... or the phone company, so they can restore communications?
IsaacHayes
Flashlight Enthusiast
Use less would work if everything, electronics, groceries, whatever was produce right in your home town. Then we could do without semis. But if stuff has to be moved, it has to be moved. If people have to commute to work and car pool, on a busy road and you have to go at least 75mph, then having an econ small car is a bit dangerous when it takes so long to accerlerate on to the high way and no one will move over. Some people have to drive 1.5 hrs or more.. I'm not knocking enviromentailists, but the way things are right now it's not practical for eveyrone to be able to use less. Sure some people can, and I envy them. Others where we live or certain thigns (semis) can't use a small or hybrid car... We have a lot of work ahead before we don't have to worry about fuel.
I do hate all the darn SUV's. EVERY car lot New/Used has NOTHING but SUVS and Trucks. I want to go and ask them, so where do I go to buy a car? When did you change to only a TRUCK dealership! There is 20 rows of SUVs, and one row of 10 cars. All the same model. This is at every place I go to in several towns! grr!
I don't feel sorry for the city dwelling SUV owner. It's bad enough in my mid-size car, so it's gotta be worse for them! hah! GET A VAN people!
Ok, that's my 2 cents on fuel consumption! Good night all!
I do hate all the darn SUV's. EVERY car lot New/Used has NOTHING but SUVS and Trucks. I want to go and ask them, so where do I go to buy a car? When did you change to only a TRUCK dealership! There is 20 rows of SUVs, and one row of 10 cars. All the same model. This is at every place I go to in several towns! grr!
I don't feel sorry for the city dwelling SUV owner. It's bad enough in my mid-size car, so it's gotta be worse for them! hah! GET A VAN people!
Ok, that's my 2 cents on fuel consumption! Good night all!
jtr1962
Flashaholic
Yeah, and a lot of it could be moved most of the way by rail using a lot less fuel than semis (and less labor costs as well). In fact, rail actually accounts for quite a bit of the cargo shipments even in the US. Now if only we could get more railroads to electrify. Long term it would save them money but the CEOs can't see past the next quarter.IsaacHayes said:
That's a chicken and egg argument. If almost nobody had large SUVs, then others wouldn't feel compelled to buy them also to "feel safe" (another myth BTW but I'm not going into that here). Also, with more attention paid to aerodynamics, we could go very fast and still not use much fuel.
And they made the choice to either live in a place very far from any jobs, or to take a job far from home instead of closer. Commuting 60, 70, 80 miles one way to work is ridiculous. Sorry, but it is. So it takes 1.5 hours each way when things are running well. Now when you get some traffic it takes three hours each way. That's six hours of your time each day that you're not getting paid for, and unlike when you take a train you can't even do other things while you're commuting so that time is 100% wasted . I wish more people would realize that. It's better to take a job which pays $20 less a week if it's only 20 minutes away.
So do I, and in the scheme of things there was really no good reason for so many people to own what is essentially a commercial vehicle. Sure, like semis sometimes it's needed, but in the majority of cases a car would do just fine.
tylerdurden
Flashlight Enthusiast
Seems to me that most of the arguments in this thread come down to busybodies wanting to tell other people what to do.
BIGIRON
Flashlight Enthusiast
BTW A "barrel" of oil in the petroleum market is 35 gallons, not the 55 we are all familiar with. Whiskey is also traded in 35 gallon barrels.
jtr1962
Flashaholic
Part of the reason we're in this predicament is precisely because nobody in charge wanted to tell anyone what to do. We didn't want to tell automakers to increase CAFE requirements, we didn't want to impose zero-emission requirements on them (California tried and then wimped out), we didn't want to jump start develop of alternatives, etc. Sometimes leaders need to drag the populace along kicking and screaming when it's in the long-term best interests of everyone. Of course, our current crop of leaders doesn't think much beyond the next election or next quarter. Ever heard the saying people get the government they deserve?tylerdurden said:Seems to me that most of the arguments in this thread come down to busybodies wanting to tell other people what to do.
I'd like to be optimistic and think that people will finally start pushing for a change to a non-fossil fuel based economy but we'll probably go back to our old ways once this crisis passes. Having lived through the last one in the early 1970s it seems the more things change the more they stay the same.
Darell
Flashaholic
Tyler - you sometimes seem to confuse "telling other people what to do" with answering the request for "what can we do?"tylerdurden said:Seems to me that most of the arguments in this thread come down to busybodies wanting to tell other people what to do.
If there is no problem, then nothing needs to be done. If there IS a problem, then maybe people DO need to do something? :shrug:
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DarkLight
Enlightened
too late the jump here was from 2.65 to 3.19...ouch
jumped from $2.56 to $3.00 gal in two days for Tulsa
fond memories of when we thought $1.50 gal gas was too expensive
Also would like to point out that I'm not against the free enterprise system and someone making a buck.
but ulitities should be treated differently due to monopoly factor. with consolitation of petroleum industry. tell me how suppling fuel is much different from natural gas or electricity
Hawai was the first to limit what you can charge wholesale for fuel.
don't know how things are done in your area, but in OK utilities are limited to the % of profit over cost they are allowed to make.
uitility companies are doing fine thank you!
fond memories of when we thought $1.50 gal gas was too expensive
Also would like to point out that I'm not against the free enterprise system and someone making a buck.
but ulitities should be treated differently due to monopoly factor. with consolitation of petroleum industry. tell me how suppling fuel is much different from natural gas or electricity
Hawai was the first to limit what you can charge wholesale for fuel.
don't know how things are done in your area, but in OK utilities are limited to the % of profit over cost they are allowed to make.
uitility companies are doing fine thank you!
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BIGIRON
Flashlight Enthusiast
On jump from $2.48 to $2.99 yesterday.
jtice
Flashaholic
jumped about 50 cents here to about $3.10 for regular
Darell,
I am leaning your way here, and that is a big change in my outlook.
However when I see people (not you) post that they "hate" SUV's, what response do you think this sort of rhetoric will extract.
People with signs that say driving an SUV is supporting terrorism just makes those of us who do drive SUV's, yet do care and think, get pissed.(or guys from Marin stickering SUV's) Then we lump those that are trying to make change in one group.
Your message is lost when that happens, well not completely at least I can see who is wacko and who really wants the best for the future.
I just think that this is not an either or situation, rather a hey what can do we together to correct this.
Change is scary, and people who demand change with wacko rhetoric scare/turn off the general populace.
There is no need to make this an "Us vs. Them" situation.
Right now at this point in history we have a unique opportunity to effect that change, ONLY if we can work together instead of choosing sides. Then when someone stops at a local dealership they will see small and large "extremely efficient" vehicles.
Otherwise the folly will continue and the divisions will expand.
In my defense, I am on the 4th day of a high fever and want to try and bring us together in a direction that will effect change.
I am leaning your way here, and that is a big change in my outlook.
However when I see people (not you) post that they "hate" SUV's, what response do you think this sort of rhetoric will extract.
People with signs that say driving an SUV is supporting terrorism just makes those of us who do drive SUV's, yet do care and think, get pissed.(or guys from Marin stickering SUV's) Then we lump those that are trying to make change in one group.
Your message is lost when that happens, well not completely at least I can see who is wacko and who really wants the best for the future.
I just think that this is not an either or situation, rather a hey what can do we together to correct this.
Change is scary, and people who demand change with wacko rhetoric scare/turn off the general populace.
There is no need to make this an "Us vs. Them" situation.
Right now at this point in history we have a unique opportunity to effect that change, ONLY if we can work together instead of choosing sides. Then when someone stops at a local dealership they will see small and large "extremely efficient" vehicles.
In my defense, I am on the 4th day of a high fever and want to try and bring us together in a direction that will effect change.
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Darell
Flashaholic
Get better soon, my friend!
Yes indeed. And that was the message I was trying to convey. There is something we can all do together - doesn't matter what you are currently driving.
I agree with all you've said, of course.
Beamhead said:
Yes indeed. And that was the message I was trying to convey. There is something we can all do together - doesn't matter what you are currently driving.
I agree with all you've said, of course.
You got it Bud.
We must work together and get something done!
Maybe when you got a spare minute you can school me on solar panels. In CA we have unlimited amounts of that.
I don't even want to think about filling up my thirsty Expi...
I think that the lulled asleep are beginning to wake. We can only hope.
I see your sporting your "hat" again.
We must work together and get something done!
Maybe when you got a spare minute you can school me on solar panels. In CA we have unlimited amounts of that.
I don't even want to think about filling up my thirsty Expi...
I think that the lulled asleep are beginning to wake. We can only hope.
I see your sporting your "hat" again.
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OK, more information from my neighbor the refinery engineer. kind of operation he does is what Red Adair does to put out oil fires, only for refineries.
told him about posting on cpf the infomation we had talked about and how no one believed me. of course he chuckled...
He still insist there is aprox. one years of oil reserves in storage in the US. look at all the tank farms out there. there are massive underground storage in existance.
I know... prove it. well I'm not aware of anyone that tracks those stats. during the first 73 oil crisis choppers were flying over tank farms. asking is that not full?
further not all the refineries in LA sustained full damage due to being further inland. He estimated that 10-15% of refinery capacity would be temp knocked down.
well I asked, what does this do to our capacity to produce fuel nationally. his reply was squat... for instance refineries in Texas were running aprox. at 80% capacity. Now they've ramped up to 90% capacity.
remember these are multi-national companies. they have contingency plans in place. they can pull up slack at a drop of the hat.
further I asked is this gouging or excess profiting? He though for a moment and replied. it's gouging because they are taking advantage of the situation. trying to pry out all the $$ out fo everyone.
another comment was that fuel costs in US have been a fraction of what rest of world pays. these are multi-nationals thinking. why should be sell in US for a fraction what we sell in say Europe. they would like to make a correction to make both same.
What the Bush administration has allowed to happen is the reverse of Standard Oil way back in history. For all pratical purposes the word Monopoly has been struck from the rules.
currently there are 5-6 major players that own 90% of all refinery capacity in US. with remain independants being swallowed up at an alarming rate.
the delivery of fuel is no different from other utilities. recent mergers allowed has made this back into monopolies again. they should be regulated like the monopolies they are.
apologies in advance if this is not to your likings...
told him about posting on cpf the infomation we had talked about and how no one believed me. of course he chuckled...
He still insist there is aprox. one years of oil reserves in storage in the US. look at all the tank farms out there. there are massive underground storage in existance.
I know... prove it. well I'm not aware of anyone that tracks those stats. during the first 73 oil crisis choppers were flying over tank farms. asking is that not full?
further not all the refineries in LA sustained full damage due to being further inland. He estimated that 10-15% of refinery capacity would be temp knocked down.
well I asked, what does this do to our capacity to produce fuel nationally. his reply was squat... for instance refineries in Texas were running aprox. at 80% capacity. Now they've ramped up to 90% capacity.
remember these are multi-national companies. they have contingency plans in place. they can pull up slack at a drop of the hat.
further I asked is this gouging or excess profiting? He though for a moment and replied. it's gouging because they are taking advantage of the situation. trying to pry out all the $$ out fo everyone.
another comment was that fuel costs in US have been a fraction of what rest of world pays. these are multi-nationals thinking. why should be sell in US for a fraction what we sell in say Europe. they would like to make a correction to make both same.
What the Bush administration has allowed to happen is the reverse of Standard Oil way back in history. For all pratical purposes the word Monopoly has been struck from the rules.
currently there are 5-6 major players that own 90% of all refinery capacity in US. with remain independants being swallowed up at an alarming rate.
the delivery of fuel is no different from other utilities. recent mergers allowed has made this back into monopolies again. they should be regulated like the monopolies they are.
apologies in advance if this is not to your likings...
jtr1962
Flashaholic
Agreed, and I'll grant that sprouting lines like "I hate SUVs" is nonproductive. People do things like that because it's easier to just focus the blame on one thing rather than look at the big picture. It works both ways as well. Lumping everyone who wants energy alternatives with radical environmentalists is just as bad as blaming SUVs for all our energy woes. Truthfully, I personally think a lot of environmentalists are just plain wackos and I'm sure that's a surprise given a lot of my positions. For example, I just don't understand their use of global warming as a poster child to develop alternatives when a myriad of much more sensible reasons exist. And a lot of enviromentalists are anti-hydroelectric, anti-nuclear, anti-windpower, even anti-solar. Basically, quite a few of them seem to want us to go back to living like we did 1000 years ago since they find fault with pretty much any alternative energy source. Unfortunately, their radical messages rub the average person the wrong way, and cause the more sensible voices who want BEVs, more public transport, alternate fuels, nuclear, solar, etc. to be lumped in with those on the fringe.Beamhead said:
We now have a unique opportunity to get the message out that there is a better way than fossil fuels in such a way that the average person would be receptive to it. Let's not blow it.
zespectre
Flashlight Enthusiast
Darell said:
Yup. just recently I was filling my vehicle (Jeep Cherokee) and the guy next to me at the pump made a snarky comment about SUVs then got in his car (Ford Crown Victoria of all things) and drove off.
It really burned me up 'cause I commute to work via public transit, walk to the grocery store (it's nearby) and most of the time the jeep gets used every other weekend to do either do field work at a wildlife refuge (4x4 required!) or go camping (or both :laughing: ) but the upshot is I probably put gas in it about once a month!
So I'm trying to do right and I HATED that suddenly I felt like I had to justify what I was driving, especially to a guy driving a landliner!
Darn it, almost two weeks later and I'm still dwelling on that
