Denali fog/driving/hybrid lights

[och]

Denali makes some legitimate products. Their latest D3 with fog beam lense (not regular D3) is amazing. I have it on one of my bikes, it's got a very sharp cut off and a super wide beam - on a dark country road it makes a huge difference.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Denali makes some legitimate products. Their latest D3 with fog beam lense (not regular D3) is amazing.

Let's see the beam isoplots.

I have it on one of my bikes, it's got a very sharp cut off and a super wide beam - on a dark country road it makes a huge difference.

A sharp cutoff is good for a fog lamp, as is a wide beam, but fog lamps only make a beneficial difference on a dark country road at very low speeds.

 

[-Virgil-]

That's right, about fog lamps being useful only at extremely low speeds. Oh, they feel like they're useful in other circumstances, but at best they're not/at worst they're counterproductive. Think about a fog lamp like this on a motorcycle. The road curves to the right. You take the curve, your bike banks/pivots to starboard, including the fog lamp...which means its beam is now lighting up the field to the left of your bike, opposite the direction you need to be looking in (because the road curves to the right).

 

[och]

Let's see the beam isoplots.


A sharp cutoff is good for a fog lamp, as is a wide beam, but fog lamps only make a beneficial difference on a dark country road at very low speeds.

DENALI D3 Series - SAE & ECE Compliant Fog & Driving Lights

Our new D3 LED lights build upon a decade of DENALI innovation to deliver the highest performing street-legal fog light to hit the market. The D3 is also available in our signature TriOptic™ beam pattern that includes a spot and driving lens option with each pod. Unlike all previous TriOptic™...

denalielectronics.com

You can see the beam performance for their fog, hybrid, and spot light at the link above.

I would generally agree with you that fog lights only make a difference at low speeds, but these are not your traditional halogen fogs, or traditional motorcycle "passing lights" - these have wider and longer throw than most headlights.

I do find them most useful on dark country roads at any speed. They do an excellent job of illuminating the sides of the road so I can spot deer and other animals.

The regular OEM passing lights/fog lights are useless outside of well lit urban highways, mostly to be more visible to other traffic - on dark roads they just create a very bright spot immediately in front of the vehicle which is counterproductive at anything but very slow speed, like you said.

 

[-Virgil-]

You can see the beam performance for their fog, hybrid, and spot light at the link above.

No, you can see a real nice color diagram of...nothing useful. A lamp with 5 lux to 200 feet isn't a fog lamp, and/or is aimed far too high. It is physically impossible for a legitimate fog lamp, with even approximately appropriate aim, to give anywhere near the seeing distance claimed. With that amount of light at that kind of distance and that amount of beam spread, this lamp is going to produce dangerous/illegal amounts of glare, there is no way around it.

I would generally agree with you that fog lights only make a difference at low speeds, but these are not your traditional halogen fogs, or traditional motorcycle "passing lights" - these have wider and longer throw than most headlights.

See above. Either they're lying about compliance, or they're pulling a fast one with much-too-high aim (or both).

Also, that "hybrid" lamp of theirs is not an appropriate, safe, or legal light for use on public roads.

I do find them most useful on dark country roads at any speed. They do an excellent job of illuminating the sides of the road so I can spot deer and other animals.

...which are close enough that if they run into the road, you're going to hit them, if your (appropriately aimed) fog lamps are lighting them up.

The regular OEM passing lights/fog lights are useless outside of well lit urban highways, mostly to be more visible to other traffic

Fog lamps and passing lamps are not conspicuity devices.

on dark roads they just create a very bright spot immediately in front of the vehicle which is counterproductive at anything but very slow speed, like you said.

And the wider and brighter the beam from a fog lamp (or "fog lamp"), the worse the degradation of your distance vision by the brightly-lit foreground.

There is just no such thing as yeah, fog lamps are generally only useful at really low speeds in bad weather, except for THESE fog lamps. That isn't a thing. And you can take a pretty good measure of the legitimacy of a company's products by the truthfulness and reality levels of the claims they make.

 

[och]

No, you can see a real nice color diagram of...nothing useful. A lamp with 5 lux to 200 feet isn't a fog lamp, and/or is aimed far too high. It is physically impossible for a legitimate fog lamp, with even approximately appropriate aim, to give anywhere near the seeing distance claimed. With that amount of light at that kind of distance and that amount of beam spread, this lamp is going to produce dangerous/illegal amounts of glare, there is no way around it.

Well, they are SAE/DOT J583 & ECE R19 certified according to their website, and they are not the only product on the market, last year Denali, Morimoto, and Diode Dynamics each launched their own line of road legal fog lights. They are all similar in design and performance, Diode Dynamics has more info and videos on youtube.

Stage Series 3" SAE/DOT White Max LED Pod (pair)

<div data-content-type="html" data-appearance="default" data-element="main"><div class="ddescr dcol1"> <div class="block1"> <h3>Features</h3> <ul> <li><span style="font-weight: 400;">Modern TIR optics provide highest intensity on the market</span></li> <li><span style="font-weight...

www.diodedynamics.com

Skip to 2:30 for the fog light in the video below.

See above. Either they're lying about compliance, or they're pulling a fast one with much-too-high aim (or both).

Also, that "hybrid" lamp of theirs is not an appropriate, safe, or legal light for use on public roads.

Correct, their hybrid lense is made for offroad.

Fog lamps and passing lamps are not conspicuity devices.

Perhaps, but they are often used as such, especially in motorcycle applications. I am in NYC, most highways here are very well lit with heavy traffic, so I do whatever I can to be more visible as long as its safe and legal.

...which are close enough that if they run into the road, you're going to hit them, if your (appropriately aimed) fog lamps are lighting them up.

And the wider and brighter the beam from a fog lamp (or "fog lamp"), the worse the degradation of your distance vision by the brightly-lit foreground.

There is just no such thing as yeah, fog lamps are generally only useful at really low speeds in bad weather, except for THESE fog lamps. That isn't a thing. And you can take a pretty good measure of the legitimacy of a company's products by the truthfulness and reality levels of the claims they make.

You're not wrong, but that not withstanding, I can trust my own eyes to conclude these are legit. I see a lot of incorrect use of fog light, or worse yet offroad light bars that many clueless drivers have been sporting lately. These just go to blind other drivers and create a nearby bright spot that degrades long distance vision.

Perhaps their classification as a fog light is incorrect in comparison to traditional fog light specs, their beam is more akin to low beam headlight with substantially wider spread. I've checked them for glare and for beam distance, they most certainly have no glare, and light up sides of the road far enough to provide some time for avoidance in case an animal runs out to the road.

Here is a shot of their beam on a white wall in combination with the headlight.

 

[och]

Here is a good video from DD comparing different fog lights. They did not have the Denali D3 in the comparison, but they probably perform similar to the DD SS3.

 

[och]

And here is data for the Morimoto product.

https://www.morimotohid.com/4BangerOffRoad

https://www.morimotohid.com/docs/HXB%20Wide%20SAE%20F.pdf

https://www.morimotohid.com/docs/NCS%20Wide%20SAE%20F.pdf

 

[EJR]

And here is data for the Morimoto product.

I thought this thread was about Denali?

Does Denali have published photometric reports from an accredited lab?

 

[och]

I thought this thread was about Denali?

Does Denali have published photometric reports from an accredited lab?

I do not have such info, but as I was saying before, Denali, DD, and Morimoto are the three main players with this latest generation of fog lights that perform similarly. I went with Denali as they also sell brackets that are specific for my bike, otherwise I would've probably gone with DD.

 

[-Virgil-]

Well, they are SAE/DOT J583 & ECE R19 certified according to their website

Well, which is it? They meet J583 and R19, *OR* those bird-eye beam plots are legit? It's one or the other, it's not both.

Denali, Morimoto, and Diode Dynamics each launched their own line of road legal fog lights. They are all similar in design and performance

They are similar in appearance. They are not similar in performance.

I can trust my own eyes

No, you can't. I can't trust mine, either. Nobody can. "I know what I see!" feels obviously right, but it's completely wrong. Subjective impressions just plain do not cut it on questions like this.

Perhaps their classification as a fog light is incorrect in comparison to traditional fog light specs, their beam is more akin to low beam headlight with substantially wider spread.

...and then they don't meet R19 or J583. There is just no way to have the cake and eat it too on this one.

I've checked them for glare and for beam distance, they most certainly have no glare

I am guessing you didn't. That kind of checking requires a photogoniometer. "I looked at them from like 25 or 50 feet away" doesn't count.

I appreciate that you like these lamps, they look likable -- maybe even lovable -- but that's a totally, completely different question than whether they're legally and technically legitimate and accurately described and promoted.

 

[och]

They most certainly got creative with how they classified their lights to have them meet the criteria to be certified road legal. I have no doubt certain aspects of their performance might be questionable under scrutinized testing, but clearly they got approved to be used as fog lights. People use fog lights improperly all the time, or at least not as intended, and people use all sorts of really offensive offroad light bars/pods, and at the very least these products are far better than anything else on the market.

 

[-Virgil-]

clearly they got approved to be used as fog lights.

Maybe and maybe not. There are lights out there with counterfeit E-marks, and there are lights with legit E-marks that technically shouldn't have been granted. Just like in the American system where supposedly due dilligence is done before the lens markings are applied, but any slob can mark "SAE" or "DOT" on the lamp. In the UN (rest of the world) system, it's a widely known open secret that certain countries' type approval authorities, and the test houses they subcontract, are...let's say...far less exacting than others. And some DGAF what the lamp does as long as the payment clears.

People use fog lights improperly all the time

That's true, and it sucks. But it's a different question.

and at the very least these products are far better than anything else on the market.

That's an opinion. Fine for benchracing, but it can't grow up to be a big, strong fact until it's backed by real and adequate data...and it has to be data that doesn't look like it was obviously faked by aiming the lamps way too high or other jiggery-pokery.

 

[RHS-113]

Maybe and maybe not. There are lights out there with counterfeit E-marks, and there are lights with legit E-marks that technically shouldn't have been granted. Just like in the American system where supposedly due dilligence is done before the lens markings are applied, but any slob can mark "SAE" or "DOT" on the lamp. In the UN (rest of the world) system, it's a widely known open secret that certain countries' type approval authorities, and the test houses they subcontract, are...let's say...far less exacting than others. And some DGAF what the lamp does as long as the payment clears.

Are there any particular numbers an end consumer/user like me should look out for? Obviously a lamp or bulb can be bad regardless of which number is after the "E" mark because the regulations themselves allow too much variance, but assuming the type approval is legit, is a lamp or bulb with a say, "E1" mark more likely to have been vetted than a lamp or bulb with an "E11" or "E13" or "E24" mark?

 

[Dave D]

I have a set of Denali S4's on my motorcycle together with their CANSmart which integrates the lights into the bikes canbus system allowing them to be controlled with the bikes normal switches.

Very good quality and relatively straight forward to fit as they are pretty much plug and play, the time consuming part was taking all the plastic panels off my bike. There are various functions that can be customised by the user by connecting the CANsmart to a PC/Mac.

Via the CANSmart I now have a louder horn, the bikes Canbus trips above 5 amps so the CANSmart feeds the horn direct, the additional lights which are set up to function with the full beam headlight, an additional rear/brake light that if activated heavily above 50kph flashes three times and then shows a solid brake light, which is standard on later versions of my bike and a good safety feature and lastly I can control heated clothing via the heated grips, the heated clothing supply can be programmed to whatever percentage you want to correspond to the heated grip heat levels.

 

[Dave D]

Are there any particular numbers an end consumer/user like me should look out for? Obviously a lamp or bulb can be bad regardless of which number is after the "E" mark because the regulations themselves allow too much variance, but assuming the type approval is legit, is a lamp or bulb with a say, "E1" mark more likely to have been vetted than a lamp or bulb with an "E11" or "E13" or "E24" mark?

Certification of Economic Commission for Europe (referred to as ECE, United Nations agency), the E-Mark: E-Mark is the regulations issued by the Economic Commission for Europe (referred to as ECE). E-Mark logo is a circular frame. The number is the EU country or state number that granted approval. If one state grants approval then it is deemed sufficient for all other member states. The country/state codes are as follows: E1 – Germany, E2 – France, E3 – Italy, E4 – Netherlands, E5 – Sweden, E6 – Belgium, E7 – Hungary, E8 – Czech Republic, E9 – Spain, E10 – Yugoslavia, E11 – United Kingdom, E12 – Austria, E13 – Luxembourg, E14 – Switzerland, E16 – Norway, E17 – Finland, E18 – Denmark, E19 – Romania, E20 – Poland, E21 – Portugal, E22 – Russian Federation, E23 – Greece, E24 – Ireland, E25 – Croatia, E26 – Slovenia, E27 – Slovakia, E28 – Belarus, E29 – Estonia, E31 – Bosnia and Herzegovina, E32 – Latvia, E34 – Bulgaria, E37 – Turkey, E40 – Macedonia, E42 – European Community, E43 – Japan, E45 – Australia, E46 – Ukraine, E47 – South Africa.

Simple answer is to probably buy from know manufacturers to avoid fake units. The E1 code refers to Germany so the likes of Hella or Bosch etc will be a safe bet.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

the additional lights which are set up to function with the full beam headlight

If by this you mean "run fog lamps at the same time the high beam is on", don't do that. You see further with the high beam alone than with a combination of the high beam and fog lamps. Really, you do.

and lastly I can control heated clothing via the heated grips, the heated clothing supply can be programmed to whatever percentage you want to correspond to the heated grip heat levels.

Ok, so that's pretty neat. No qualms with that.

 

[Dave D]

If by this you mean "run fog lamps at the same time the high beam is on", don't do that. You see further with the high beam alone than with a combination of the high beam and fog lamps. Really, you do.

The S4 lamps that I have are are high beams.

 

[och]

The S4 lamps that I have are are high beams.

I actually had a set of Denali S4 on my bike, they were extremely bright, but absolutely useless as they are not even high beam, they are offroad lights. I have since replaced them with Denali D3 with fog lense, which have road legal "fog" beam, although in reality it is not a fog beam at all, it's more akin to a very wide low beam. I absolutely love them.

Here's before and after.

The brake light flashes 4 times and then displays a solid light while the brakes are applied, apparently they are California legal.

You must have a German bike that allows you to code all these options, with brake modulation, etc.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

The S4 lamps that I have are are high beams.

It would be better if those all didn't come on with the high beams right away. I'd set them up to be manually activated and require the high beam to already be on.