Did SF change the flashlight world at Shot Show?

[Penguin]

2008 will truly be ground breaking. I remember joining CPF when the E2'e' debuted. Yes, the addition of a pyrex window, LOTC and a change in body styling was the big thing for that year. I'm guessing the large amount of capital pumped in by Goldman Sachs and those other big bulge banks are really speeding up R&D.... now instead of a one or if we're lucky, two new models each year we're seeing 4-5 incredibly advanced lights debuting in ONE year.. astounding. What a time to be a flashaholic. And like ugrey, I too started with a 1W 20 lumen LSH-P. We've come a long way...

 

[dougie]

I think that the argument about Surefire changing the flashlight world is perhaps best answered if you consider whether you mean new technological advances or whether you mean changing the way that LED flashlights are used by professionals?

As I posted earlier in this thread Surefire hasn't actually brought much new to the technology table? What they have done is taken LED flashlights into a realm which was previously almost exclusively seen as incandescent.

Surefire have championed the use of LED's in lights that are not merely recreational but which are the major lighting tools for the military and law enforcement communities. I personally would argue that their 2008 product range will begin a revolution in the type of personally carried flashlights for professional use?

However, as much as I love Surefire products I don't think that technology wise they have actually innovated too much this year unless you count the variable beam and the battery life indicator as revolutionary technology? What they have done is developed and improved LED flashlights to a level which I personally didn't expect to see for a least another couple of years.

Kudos to Surefire for raising the bar! Let's now see how other flashlight manufacturers respond?

Doug

 

[Crenshaw]

totally agree with dougie there, they changed the world of flashlights for the people that actually use them tactically...not just tacticool

Crenshaw

 

[kelmo]

I think the specs on the new SF products are very impressive but for me they are to the point of technological overkill. Its very analogous to the cell phone market. Each model year they are getting increasingly more complicated to use. Call me boring but I like high and low. And while 400 lumens of output is very impressive, for me its just not practical. I have an M4 but don't use it much because it is too dammed bright for anything other than goofing off while camping. I will continue to purchase SF lights but only when I can get them for a steal, ie the Sportsman's Warehouse sale. I did buy a KX2 and a P60L but they are practical IMHO. A good combination of useful output and runtime that utilizes a host that I already have.

YMMV

 

[NA8]

Love those Surefire catalogs. Anyone think that 400 lumen quad die LED would be nice in a weapon light ? They should have saved the X400 name for it.

 

[shroomy]

How could you possibly know that SureFire is using torch lumens? Nobody knows. They use their own measuring system for all we know. That stated 80 lumens might very well be 130+ actual torch lumens. But come clean now: you just don't want to admit you've been proven wrong...

Meh, I'd imagine the E1B just has a brighter hotspot. A while back I compared my P3D against an L1, and was somewhat surprised to note that the L1 threw as far as the P3D. The L1's optic gave it (to me anyway) surprisingly good throw for a 1 cell light. Since the E1B also uses an optic (I'm guessing the same one) I'd imagine that it would out throw the P2D significantly, hence the brighter hotspot in the photo. Though I do think that the P2D would light up a room more than the E1B. Short of an integrating sphere, a ceiling bounce test would be the best way to determine which is brighter.

Now, my .02 cents on the subject. I don't think that surefire changed the flashlight world at shotshow, 200+ Lumen LED flashlights have been available for a while (Perhaps not single emitter 400 lumen stock flashlights though), the only real difference is that now surefire has 200 lumen LED flashlights. Consumers are now able to buy lights with cutting edge brightness from a brand that many seem to trust more than others.

I don't mean to downplay Surefire's 2008 lineup as entirely ho-hum. There's a reason that surefire describes the UA2 as "the holy grail of flashlights" but does not say the same for the Brighter UB2. The UA2's spot to flood capability is very original, offhand I can't think of any other lights that offer this.

So no, I don't think that surefire changed the flashlight world, but they did up the ante.

 

[BentHeadTX]

Woohoo!
I pull my Eneloop AA/AAA cells out and... well... and I actually expected that Surefire would throw a bone and make a keychain light. Heck at least a 1AA or 2AA light body but.... noooooooooooo!
My sons lost my L0D Q4 and I was kinda hoping maybe it was time for a SF. Alas, that is not going to happen this year and probably never will. Oh well, my Peak Baltic SP AAA takes a pounding and never wimpers. It will be heading to some fun overseas this year.
An improvement? You bet! Change the world? Not even close since my AAA/AA lights get the most use of all. Rechargables... yeah, those things run in 100% of my lights and I prefer it that way.
Any rumors of AA bodies or are they vaporware as they always have been.

 

[sims2k]

Very impressive Surefire lineup for 2008. As much as I am tempted to buy the UA2 and UB2 lights, I am going to wait a while to see what Fenix, RaidFire, Lumapower, Dereelight and Tiablo comes up next. After spending much money on Surefire lights this past two years I am just happy with all my current EDC's. For me...it is going to be wait and see the reviews first and then wait to see what the other manufacturers can come up with.

 

[WadeF]

Have you compared the new E1B side-by-side against your P1D-CE? There is a thread around here where a poster puts the E1B against the P2D, and the E1B was undeniably brighter. Point is, printed numbers don't mean a whole lot...

This is very misleading. The only thing the beamshots showed was the E1B has a brighter hot spot, that doesn't mean it's overal brighter, or putting out more lumens. The optic is designed to focus the light into a tight beam. I have a Rayovac headlamp from Costco (luxeon, claimed to be 80 lumens I think) that has an optic and produces a brighter hot spot than some of my Fenix lights, but that doesn't mean it has more lumens, it just has more throw.

I have a E1B showing up tomorrow, I'd be surprised if it puts out more total lumens than my Fenix P2D Q2, but we'll see.

It all depends on what kind of beam you want. If you want throw in a small light, the E1B should be great. Some people may not care for the tight beam of the E1B and would prefer the larger hot spot and brighter spill a Fenix P2D would offer.

Now if you can get a R123 into a E1B it maybe a different story, but I'm going by SF's spec when using a CR123.

I'll post beam shots tomorrow. I have a P2D Q5 on the way, but I probably won't have that until later this week.

As far as the topic about if SF changed the flashlight world? Not really. I think the new U2's look really awesome, and the focusing optic with the U2A is pretty neat. However, some of these lights aren't available yet, and by the time they are there maybe other 400+ lumen single emitter LED lights on the market, etc.

A bigger change to the flashlight world would probably have to go to the LED makers, like Cree, SSC, etc, and the flashlight companies that were the early adpotors of the new LED's, like Fenix. I had a SF E2e for years, and love it, but when I saw the Fenix P1D P4 putting out more light, for longer, on a single cell, that really changed the flashlight world for me, and I think CPF has felt the impact from that change with all us LED fanatics flooding in here.

It's nice to see SF bringing out some high output LED options. I can't wait to try out the E1B, and I'll be interested in the P61L's to see how they perform compared to the other high powered drop-ins on the market.

 

[Crenshaw]

This is very misleading. The only thing the beamshots showed was the E1B has a brighter hot spot, that doesn't mean it's overal brighter, or putting out more lumens. The optic is designed to focus the light into a tight beam. I have a Rayovac headlamp from Costco (luxeon, claimed to be 80 lumens I think) that has an optic and produces a brighter hot spot than some of my Fenix lights, but that doesn't mean it has more lumens, it just has more throw.

I have a E1B showing up tomorrow, I'd be surprised if it puts out more total lumens than my Fenix P2D Q2, but we'll see.

It all depends on what kind of beam you want. If you want throw in a small light, the E1B should be great. Some people may not care for the tight beam of the E1B and would prefer the larger hot spot and brighter spill a Fenix P2D would offer.

Now if you can get a R123 into a E1B it maybe a different story, but I'm going by SF's spec when using a CR123.

I'll post beam shots tomorrow. I have a P2D Q5 on the way, but I probably won't have that until later this week.

As far as the topic about if SF changed the flashlight world? Not really. I think the new U2's look really awesome, and the focusing optic with the U2A is pretty neat. However, some of these lights aren't available yet, and by the time they are there maybe other 400+ lumen single emitter LED lights on the market, etc.

A bigger change to the flashlight world would probably have to go to the LED makers, like Cree, SSC, etc, and the flashlight companies that were the early adpotors of the new LED's, like Fenix. I had a SF E2e for years, and love it, but when I saw the Fenix P1D P4 putting out more light, for longer, on a single cell, that really changed the flashlight world for me, and I think CPF has felt the impact from that change with all us LED fanatics flooding in here.

It's nice to see SF bringing out some high output LED options. I can't wait to try out the E1B, and I'll be interested in the P61L's to see how they perform compared to the other high powered drop-ins on the market.

so im not the only one that thinks its just the throw... but like wade says, we shall see...

Crenshaw

 

[Stingray]

I think that the ability to go from spot to flood and all points in between while maintaining a Surefire quality beam could be considered changing the flashlight world.

 

[yaesumofo]

The question was:
"Did SF change the flashlight world at Shot Show?"


It refers to the flashlight world....Not "THE WORLD".
Again I am of the opinion that Surefire certainly changed the flashlight world at this years Shot Show.
I agree lets keep it civil but lets keep the actual question in sight too.
Heck if Fenix is such a mover and shaker leader of the industry where in the hell were they when everybody else was at the Shot Show?
I will bet you $1.00 that Fenix shows up at next years shot show.
Yaesumofo

Bottom line for me is, Surefire is a fantastic company, with really really good lights,they did change the flashlight world, just, not at this shotshow.Raise the bar? yes, change the world? no

Crenshaw

 

[yaesumofo]

Actually Both units are self contained recorders capable of accepting a microphone level input as the audio source.
So no I was not comparing a unit with a lot of add on's I was comparing 2 4 channel digital audio recorders.
The sound devices certainly has more feature things like time code. and the ability to record many different audio formats.
the basic method of delivery is the same a compact flash card or some other flash media..
IN the world of audio recording as well as the world of flashlights you get what you pay for.
I have found that what you get is well beyond the hardware it is what you get when you need help.
For example I can put the 744T into a pelican case and send it to the factory for adjustment or repair should it break. they will fix the unit within several days and FED EX it back to me. Unless I have damaged the unit there will likely be NO cost.
The same is basically true of the sure fire flashlight. If mine breaks I can put it into a pelican case fed ex oit to sure fire and they will repair it or replace it free and quick if they have the parts.
Can I FED EX my pelican cased flashlight to the FEXNIX factory for repair? I suspect so except for the fact that FED EX to china overnight is around $100 or more. Not worth it.

Lets keep it civil but lets keep it realistic too.

Yaesumofo

And notice, your 744T is a complete set, with lots off addons, etc, while the cheaper one, i suppose isnt..then obviously the more expensive one will perform better right? and i must say, that I disagree to an extreme extent that one flashlight is clearly better then the other. You may feel differently, but that's how i feel, IMO its not fair to say that one flashlight is clearly better

Crenshaw

 

[Crenshaw]

I will bet you $1.00 that Fenix shows up at next years shot show.
Yaesumofo

well, i dont think i meant that fenix was such a mover/shaker of the industry, i just meant that surefire didnt change the flashlight world significantly enough for it to be a substantial change....
but I think we can agree to disagree here :touche:

except that, fenix WAS at shotshow...booth number #24036
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/187894

no hard feelings? :theresnoiconforhandshakesothiswillhavetodo:

Crenshaw

 

[yaesumofo]

Hell no hard feelings I am very happy to agree to disagree. Now that I know that Fenix was there I am even more amazed at their complete lack of post show BUZZ. NOne ziltch nada... Why go there if you don't have anything to show unless it is to gather information you know R and D.
I suspect we will see some technology trickle down.
Oh and by the way IMHO the new Surefire lights are quite a bit more than updated U2's one has a huge output the other has a completly innovative optical system unlike any other flashlight on any market. We will see other lights whicjh will considder these to be the base lights which are off the charts. In the future.
The ring based selector UI has been refined. there is a battery level indicator.. The list of feature which take these lights well beyond the U2.
I will agree on this point the U2 is a starting point but these new lights have gone well beyoind where even the most optimistic U2 owner thought these new lights would go.

There is allways a wax and wane to these things.
I remember when the oh hell that isn't important. The point here is this .
SureFire came to the shot show to make a stand. They threw down a royal flush and they are all in. What is everybody else dooing?
Folding.
Yaesumofo

(OK OK that might be a bit extreme but you got to admit it sounds good)

well, i dont think i meant that fenix was such a mover/shaker of the industry, i just meant that surefire didnt change the flashlight world significantly enough for it to be a substantial change....
but I think we can agree to disagree here :touche:

except that, fenix WAS at shotshow...booth number #24036
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/187894

no hard feelings? :theresnoiconforhandshakesothiswillhavetodo:

Crenshaw

 

[Crenshaw]

(OK OK that might be a bit extreme but you got to admit it sounds good)

true that..
i am actually abit surprised that there was no report of a fenix headlamp at shot...

all i can say is, i really wish i could afford an invictus...unfortunately, its gonna cost upwards of $500 in my currency..thats roughly $333 American

Crenshaw